Wilfrid

Actually, I agree with you. Of course, of course. And I just checked my French history, and realized that they were under an Emperor or monarch even later than I realized: 1870's. I gather Napoleon III did allow some freedom of the press and of assembly during the 1860's.

In the self-realization of the Absolute in History. Prob'ly.

Steve, the second part of your thesis is dandy. It's also absolutely consistent with the transparent fact that there is nothing about France's geographical location which makes it more travelled by the relevant people than other European countries. Let's not overlook some of the points I made. The assertion that Italy has suffered some sort of cultural isolation because of its location beggars belief. Rome alone has been perhaps the most consistently important cultural capital in Europe for the last two thousand years. Scholars and artists and ordinary tourists have been flocking to Rome, Florence and Venice throughout history. You've probably heard of the Papacy. How about the Grand Tour? A visit to Italy was an essential part of a European gentleperson's education throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. I am sure Spain has been less visited historically, but not because of where it is. As for modernism, in its many varieties, probably the first thing anyone learns about it is that it was an international movement. As for your harder question, I think we would first have to find some common ground as to which countries turned democratic and when. France was under one form of "authoritarian" government or another - Jacobin, Imperial, restored monarchy - until some time in the middle of nineteenth century, by which time the foundations for its culinary achievements were surely in place. Britain was a more developed democracy than France throughout much of the nineteenth century (just in terms of the extent of the franchise). Germany I know less about, but I am pretty sure it lagged behind, as did Italy - both countries, as I recall, coming late to unification. Nina - I am sure you're on to something. France and the French do have that reputation, and that is part of what I mean by the vague term "fashion". But the reputation must have roots, and a cultural history. I think this is a promising line.

It is, although having played the Belgian game a lot, I have got quite good at it: Plastique Bertrand, Toots Thielemans, Jacques Brel, Herge ('s Adventures of Tin Tin), Paul De Man. For example.

Nothing affects the thesis. And don't worry, Macrosan, I got it. LOL. Maybe a new thread, called "What have the French ever done for cooking?" Edit disclosure: three attempts to type "affects".

Good game! Calvino, Moravia, Giacometti, D'Annunzio, Dali.* Steve, be serious: nothing said here has established that France is a "central point for travel." The Romans may well have swung back and forth through Gaul, but they went most other places too: Britain, Germany, the near east, Africa. Did they only pack their wine and spices for French trips? And, in any case, don't you take the point that much culinary knowledge would have circulated through (i) the written word, (ii) travel by food professionals between major European cities, (iii) leisure travel by the moneyed class, who had privileged access to culinary information, and which involved tours of Germany, Greece and Italy at least as much as trips to France (Italy was a far more important destination than France for the smart set in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries)? Why are you clinging to such an unpromising explanation? *I typed this before certain others got in on the lark, but I enjoyed it too much to delete it.

It would be interesting to hear more about your cider-making. I was about to say Scrumpy Jack was American, but fortunately I checked first. It is, in fact, the official drink of the English cricket team - Howzat? Magners turns out to be an Irish cider.

As Glyn notes, the types of fuel available within France are irrelevant to the European travel point. I am still trying to get a handle on what the point is. Are you saying the French benefitted from exposure to travellers from England and Holland, for example? What did they learn from them? Are you suggesting Italy, Germany and Britain haven't been visited constantly by international travellers over the last two or three hundred years? Incidentally, leisure travellers often passed over the Alps going to and from Germany, Italy and Switzerland - it was considered a scenic route. As for how the Romans got to Wessex, the relevance eludes me: I think Italian influences on early French cooking are well documented (information travels in books better than it does on foot). On the more substantive question, I didn't say that French food dominance was caused by promotion. That is not the only alternative to quality (and it doesn't necessarily exclude quality, as you pointed out). It would be interesting to puzzle out how and why French food conquered much of the world. But that may need a different thread.

Of course, of course. And there's also the fact that many of these countries were at war with one another, or in states of internal upheaval for extended periods. Few English people would have been found sauntering through France during the post-Revolutionary and Napeoleonic periods, for example. That's another reason Steve should tell us which era he meant: given that he spoke of the era when French food came to pre-eminence, I have been assuming ninteenth century, but perhaps I shouldn't assume anything.

Oh, Steve, pick on something we agree on, and spoil my fun . But do you think more people are clamoring for cassoulet - which indeed they are - only because it is more complex in construction and flavor? Surely also it has something to do with the fact that it is much better known than "Tuscan beans". One thing the thread has perhaps overlooked is that there has been an astonishing fashion for French food - an enduring fashion, but a fashion nonetheless. Factors other than quality have been responsible for the dominance of French food in many international markets in this century. I believe these factors have ensured that haute cuisine is, in fact, more discussed than simpler cuisines - and I also see the work of writers like the Sterns as part of a reaction against that fact.

Thank you Jordyn. Steve hasn't told us precisely which "era" he's talking about either. We should probably clear that up, if we are not to be at cross purposes. I suspect research would show that long journeys by road, pre-twentieth century, were determined by factors other than geographical accessibility. Italy would have been a major destination for anyone from the north of Europe, for religious and cultural reasons. I suspect traffic between Belgium/Holland and Spain/Portugal would not have been especially heavy. As far as the British Isles are concerned, I think the fact that they are offshore makes them a special case. I think leisure travellers headed for Spain really would, for the most part, have gone by ship - they would have needed to amke the channel crossing anyway, so why not cross the Bay of Biscay. Poor people heading back and forth between Britain and Spain and Portugal? Why?

On mainland Europe, you need to go through France to get from Belgium and Holland to Spain and Portugal, or vice versa. What I said. And indeed, you don't have to cross the Alps, mainly because they are somewhere else. The route is completely Alp free. This explains the pre-eminence of French cuisine?

Steve, darling... 1. Here's a map of Europe which you might find useful. No-one has to go through France to get to Italy, except anyone from Spain and Portugal who insists on going by land. And you did originally say you were talking about "west of Germany". I will concede that you need to go through France to reach any point within France, but I think dispassionate cartographical observation might persuade you that there is nothing unique about France's geographical situation to have attracted excess international traffic. 2. Yes, the two statements are in conflict. Guess which one is right.

I can recall several meals which arguably rose to the level of attempted murder: at the Southampton Hilton, at the Hawthorns Hotel in Bristol, and at Hujo's in Soho (which is now the estimable Le Pigalle). Oh, and the Gay Hussar tried to assassinate me once too.

Okay, I think I'm learning. The drier type of ribs must be what I enjoyed in DC, and described here: "I was impressed, however, by the offerings of Texas Ted (who acccording to his van came from PA), who was BBQ-ing over hickory. His ribs had taken on a very distinctive flavor, color and texture from the hickory smoke - they were practically kippered, as a Brit might say." I now can't remember if Virgil's serves anything in that style - they certainly serve the wet style.

I grew up on Strongbow and Woodpecker, and they are both very refreshing. I would contend, however, that they don't have a particularly strong apple flavor.

But I enjoy it. Actually, the bit about the boat wasn't the main point. I was trying to indicate that the only countries you would need to pass though France to get to - west of Germany - are Belgium and Holland in the north and Spain and Portugal in the South. France just isn't en route to anywhere else in mainland Europe. Which I think is a problem for your theory. Since this is obviously a digression - albeit a responsive one - perhaps I should have the courtesy to say that this thread had made an interesting read, but I still find the issues out of focus. I think the point has been made that "cheap" is not cognate with "simple". I would also suggest that "complex" is not cognate with "good". By definition, there is more to be said about complex things than simple things: whether what is said is interesting has to be determined case by case.

Chevreuil aux pruneaux et armagnac, as I continue to work my way through Paris in a Basket. The recipe underestimated the liquid for the sauce, but that was easily corrected. The venison chops, from the French Butcher, were so high they were practically decomposing. I poached and scrambled goose eggs for weekend breakfasts. Although there's a lot of white, there's a lot of yolk too, so the scrambled eggs were very yellow and rich (could definitely have used some smoked fish in there). I thought poaching (not coddling) might be difficult, and indeed the size of the egg caused the water to stop boiling when I introduced it to the pan. But the albumen is firm, and set quite nicely. You need a lot of soldiers to mop up the plate.

Very interesting, but I have a question which may appear stupid, although I don't think it is. In my limited experience of barbecue, I have not found huge variations in quality. It's usually okay - very rarely great and very rarely disgusting. So my question: how does Blue Smoke compare with Virgil's? I don't mean in terms of service, luxury, novelty foie gras dishes - but rib against rib. I haven't yet heard anything about Blue Smoke which makes me think I'll get distinctly the best barbecue in the city there - although I presume I would probably have a pleasant meal.

Be sure to include an atlas among your research tools. To the extent that the Belgians and Dutch needed to get to Spain and Portugal, I expect they mostly went by boat. If your theory had legs, as it were, one might expect Germany itself, or Switzerland, to have benefitted most from cross-traffic.

I think Paul Prudhomme is alive and well. I assume someone much older is meant.

Fanny and Johnny Craddock. And yes, that is what they wore to cook. Yes? And what else would one wear?

Tommy - I certainly laugh when Jamie is on. Alton leaves me cold - I don't know why, and it's clear that some people I respect admire him, not to mention yourself. As far as the UK goes, Floyd was just the first to do a lot of interesting things with a food show. Yvonne - I agree, and I was going to give floyd credit for that too, but to be fair I think Graham Kerr was the first to make a big fuss about getting pissed while cooking on British TV. Johnny Craddock (who you are too young to remember) would get pissed on TV surreptitiously.* *Don't worry, Fat Bloke Esq, he's brown bread.

Boulud.

Yes, the exit from Po was ages ago. Maybe Tommy was looking at an old NYT.