Wilfrid

Not like you to be apologetic, Mr P. I think we should say quite clearly that, assuming one exercises reasonable judgment, the more money one has the better one can eat. That seems to me to be an unquestionable fact. Now, there is a political debate to be had whether this is an iniquitous situation, but it seems to me the left should acknowledge it as eagerly as the right. After all, it strikes me that the point of being on the left politically is to relieve poverty and deprivation, not to salute them as cool and funky lifestyle choices. Having said that, I do find it useful when people on eGullet post tips and recommendations on cheap restaurants. As with upscale restaurants, Zagat borders on the useless; personally, I don't read all the restaurant critics slavishly; and a thoughtful comment on eGullet gives me something to go on other than luck. I hope discussion of fine dining and its role in our social fabric, which I love of course, does not dissuade people from telling us which restaurants in Chinatown are worth trying, where the good Puerto Rican lunch counters are, and which are the better hotdogs. If anyone wants to go to my chili thread and tell me where a good bowl of chili can be had, that would be an excellent start!

Oh dear, now I see they've got a raspberry cider on the market. Don't fancy that, unless someone is going to tell me it's good!?

Excellent, Adam. Do you have to buy them in pairs, like the bison testicles at Union Square? Jinmyo, let me pedantic about the bird. I wouldn't have bothered eating a brace of partridge legs. Pheasant legs do at least have some meat on them. Young partridge can be wonderfully tender if treated properly - I like to pot roast them, by which I really mean brown them quickly, then steam them slowly over a bunch of aromatic vegetables, wine and herbs. As game birds get smaller, the legs do get impossibly stringy. The pheasant legs had some meat on them though, so ought to have been okay for supper.

Oh yes, I had that Pedro Ximenez too. Very nice, and I wish more restaurants offered it.

Was that a typo in there? Just checking.

Yeah, I could never get a word in with Heidegger either. Incidentally, I agree with Steve P. about the importance of the "schlep" (a word I did not learn in Essex). I always try to make my "schlep" an elaborate one, with more attractions than the food at the end of the trail. When I head to an Outer Borough on a food recommendation, I make sure the itinerary takes in some other things of interest. Then I don't feel so bad when I get my stringy, overcooked meal on a plastic plate and tumbler of cabernet vinegar. Reminds me: now that spring is here, I have to start planning to roast guinea pig expedition.

I also like watching the service in the restaurant, figuring out what they are doing and why. I certainly watch the other customers too, and I also eavesdrop (why lie?). I don't read in restaurants. I do have a habit of reading in bars, which is why I wish that bars in New York would switch their lights on.

Adam, what exactly was that cheese again? Let's own up to my own disaster. A brace of pheasant legs, each prepared differently: one spread with mustard, sprinkled with season breadcrumbs, and grilled, the other seasoned with kosher salt and black pepper and baked with fresh thyme. Horrid. Dry and stringy. In retrospect, I think this bird had probably been frozen. Bringing will often save game when it's been frozen. I think my cooking was okay - but ugh! Then a pear and stilton salad, for which I forgot the walnuts. The pear was actually too juicy, and I end up with a kind of chilled salad soup. What's for lunch?

Definitely deserves a new thread. I just want to say that I agree with Pan - I would love to see more discussion on the NY board about inexpensive restaurants. Maybe contributors think they're not worth posting about? I am often stuck for ideas on good cheap restaurants in Manhattan for the very simple reason that my poverty-stricken years have so far been spent in other cities. When I do eat somewhere inexpensive, I often have a horrible experience, and head back to the tablecloths and leather-bound menus in resentment. Secondly, while it's true that many people eat economically out of necessity. But that sort of undercuts the question about what people prefer. When I was eating cheap bowls of pork and rice in London's Soho, I would have far preferred to be eating at Le Gavroche. I may have kidded myself that the pork and rice was "just as good", but what nonsense! Perhaps the acid test is this: if one has enough money to eat at four star restaurants, does one find oneself just as often choosing no star restaurants instead, because the quality there is in its own way satisfactory? (I could ask the same question about clothes, but that could lead to a digression! :wow: )

Funny. Cheap food and jazz. And beards and sweaters? This is an interesting discussion and perhaps there should be a new thread. All kinds of assumptions get made. I have often spoken up here for Le Cirque, and I am sure some people get the idea that I have a soft spot for the clientele. No, I like the tripe in armagnac. I have seen the "deliciousness" thing, and I regard it as only partially valid. What I often want, apart from delicious food, is a peaceful atmosphere, somewhere comfortable to sit, attentive service and a general reassuring ambience. That's not exclusive to the upper end of the scale, but I think it's easier to find there.

The Water Club?

Bobby Flay - real person? Discuss. Now I'm reminded of something I was reading on the subway this morning - a chapter in Rebecca Spang's marvellous book 'The Invention of the Restaurant'. It seems that in the immediate aftermath of the French revolution, there was indeed a reaction against what rich people ate and how they ate. She provides a close analysis of some cartoons which show King Louis just before his arrest - in each case he is prictured "at table", and his gluttony and indigence are clearly making a political point. However, following the toppling of Robespierre and the Jacobins, there was a dramatic return to fine dining and its fripperies. Which is a long-winded way of agreeing with you, Bux. The revolutionaries got rid of their king and aristocrats on a long-term basis, but soon missed their chapon a la financiere. Personally, I am in favor of banishing The Queen, but seizing and redistributing her crockery.

And you can stand up and approach women in the sunken bar area at the north end of Union Square too.

I was trying to remember where I got it. I think it was from that Life With Henri book in Reichl's Food Library series.

Heaven help me, it's like trying to educate a bowl of porridge, isn't it? You don't want to sit, don't sit. If your request is specifically for an outside drinking area in Manhattan which has no seating available, I am unable to help and I wish you luck. Incidentally, do you introduce all your ugly friends as "your uncle", or is that my special privilege?

Interesting. Reminds me of an old communist I used to know who would only listen to folk music (and I mean very unadorned acoustic folk music). Real music of the people, you see. I always thought this overlooked the fact that most of "the people" were quite keen to listen something else when they got the chance. Similarly with the romanticization of cheap and auhentic, or "peasant" cooking. I enjoy a plate of fried pig's intestines as much as the next person, but I have to remind myself from time to time that the people who are eating the intestines on a regular basis would probably prefer a nice pork chop. There's a song about this, of course: "A cheap holiday in other people's misery..."

You can sit outside the Caliente Cab Co in the West Village and drink frozen margaritas out of cardboard cups. Of course, they're atrocious. I wonder if the bar on top of the Penninsula hotel is still open. Outdoors, nice view. Used to get packed after work, and took too long to get served, but if it's open it might help you to while away your empty afternoons. Several venues around Rock Plaza have outside seating, primarily I think for dining - but again, they might let you booze the afternoon away. And isn't there some dodgy looking place on Sixth called Martini's with lots of outside tables? (On second thoughts, Seventh, not far from the New York Sheraton). Then, of course, you could lay in a stock of brown paper bags and buy some bottles and ice.

Thanks. I must try to get over to Tribeca one Saturday.

I diverge from the olive oil approach by using a French recipe which calls for quartered tomatoes to be cooked slowly in butter. Doesn't actually need much butter, as the tomatoes ooze juice as they cook down. You can peel them or seed them first, and add any herbs you like. If you need onion and garlic, I guess I would start them in the butter before adding the tomatoes. My usual use for this sauce is to top sauteed green beans.

I would like to thank Suvir for the information and for setting a good example to those who come only to mock (tommy and Liza, I think that means you). KIDDING, okay?

Yes, the embarrassed Australian - something of an oxymoron, I agree.

Go ahead. Laugh.

If green peppercorns are the fresh version of black peppercorns, where do those cute pink ones come in?

1. Tommy took the words right out of my mouth. If the menu clearly states the service charge policy, I think they have fulfilled their obligation to you. You might like to be told the same thing in several different ways, but I don't see where the "entitlement" comes in. 2. Am I "for real"? Do you mean, am I sincere? Yes. There are two possibilities. First, the server was ripping you off; second, the server made a mistake. If you think the latter is impossible, you are simply wrong. If you know the former is the truth, I congratulate you on your telepathic skills. 3. Since you quite properly followed up with the restaurant, they have been apprised of the server's actions. I don't know what else you can do except apprise them again. Now, let's talk about that land deal.

I am possibly confused. The recent discussion here seems to suggest that the 20% tip was just included in the total. But looking back at BoatMan's original post, I see it was listed on the bill "like a menu item". I have to say, that is absolutely standard practice where service is included. I presume it said something like "service" opposite the sum in question. Of course it's possible to miss something like that, but at the same time it is accepted that the menu "clearly" stated that 20% service would be added for parties of six or more. So far, I can't see any problem. Should the tip have been left open on the credit card slip? This isn't a design question. It is common in the UK for restaurants to include suggested service for all customers, and also common - although not universal - that their credit card slips have no line for a tip. In the case of the restaurant BoatMan visited, I imagine most parties are fewer than six in number. Do we seriously expect the restaurant to have differently designed credit card slips for different tables? Unreasonable, I think. I think someone proposed that the restaurant should have filled in the blank tip line themselves, presumably by hand. I don't know if that would be illegal, but I have a strong feeling it would be improper. People should not be filling out other people's credit card slips. So far, again, nothing to insense me. At the same time, I agree that BoatMan's father should not have been allowed to tip almost 50% of the meal total. The fault I find is not with the restaurant, but with the waiter, who indeed should have noticed the extra tip and checked with BoatMan's father whether this was deliberately. Now, the waiter may have deliberately remained silent, or may not have been concentrating: I think it's fruitless to speculate.