sandra

I don't understand why the assumption is made that LCB "dumbs down" it's coursework - at any given time they may have a class of all aspiring pros or a class that has a few amateurs - the coursework is still the same, it has been for years - If the work or standards were compromised, they would change it, and certainly, judging from Steve & Lesley's responses, all the chef instructors would walk out in a fury... You all are giving a lot of power to a few amateurs, dilettantes, housewives, whatever you want to call them for spoiling or downgrading professional programs... again, I still disagree...and I will 'til the cows come home....

Yes, exactly... in my program one kid got thrown out for constantly turning up late, missing classes and failing assessments and practicals.. slkinsey: do you actually think the Cordon Bleu is going to give me my Grande Diplome if my abilities, grades and attendance are not up to expectation? Just because I gave them some money?? Sorry, this degree cannot be bought, trust me, some have tried... Jonathan, the classes at Leiths were just that, classes, evening classes for perfecting skills etc... like you say. LCB has those also, I just chose to take the full degree aimed at training chefs - and I still do not see a problem with it...

YES, that is the case at a university where you would want to be with your intellectual equals or superiors, but cooking school is skill and labour, brains and intellect have nothing to do with it - As for the practical skills, you could also find a class full of ambitious young chefs to be who just don't care about turning or fluting just as much as you could have a mix... I still say it's not right to put people in boxes...

Lesley, This post of yours: "I was shocked at cooking school to be surrounded by kids he didn't know the difference between Brie and Stilton. But they probably still don't." Was followed by this post of yours: "Actually most of those kids are pros today. And they were quite good and serious in class. They didn't know much about the finer points of gourmet food, but that isn't crucial for beginners. That comes up in more advanced classes" So which one is it? are they pros today or still don't know what the cheeses are? It sounds almost as if you are starting to argue both sides now....

Instead of baking them in a sandwich tin, try the following - line a baking sheet with silicone paper, or parchment, on it, draw circles the size of the base of the tin, grease the tray and lay the paper (drawing side down) onto the tray - then put your meringue into a piping bag with a medium round nozzle and pipe the meringue in concentric cicles, starting at the center until you fill the drawing - then bake - you will end up with two "as perfect as you can pipe" disks and they should not burn b/c there are no sides to concentrate the heat.. Here is the recipe I have, this will give you at least 3 flat disks of meringue: Fond Dacquoise: 60 gr ground hazelnuts 60 gr icing sugar vanilla 12 gr flour 25 gr sugar 2 egg whites Oven at 325 bake for 20 mins until just lite brown The theory behind this recipe is equal amounts of sugar and ground nuts - so your 1 cup of ground nuts is fine for your 1 cup of sugar

SO you see, weren't these kids more out of their element and "wasting precious time" more than a housewife or an amateur with more food experience? I would say they were the amateurs...

What if one has different goals but sill finds that a professional course of study is the best alternative? Can you really say what is good for each person? What if one can cook better than most entry-level students who plan to be be chefs and one may or may not one day decide to be a chef oneself?? Should one still not be allowed to take these courses? The reason people choose these schools is b/c many of the free vocational schools you talk about are crap - as I said before, a well know catering college here teaches lobster days with a plastic lobster in the demo, and you never even get the practical, so you never even get to touch the plastic lobster - that's not very good is it?? And that is just one example, there are so many more.... Oh and by the way, we get bandaged for free here too, the fabulous NHS will be more than happy to complete the job you started with your knife, if youlike, even if you come from a private school...

Steve, why? Why and how would that change a school for performing arts? Or the culinary school for that matter?

Steve, I can tell you that 90% of my class is employed or will be, all by 4 and 5 star hotels, Michelin star or high end restaurants - everywhere I have gone to apply for a stage I have been quite welcome, as have other peers - I can also tell you that the courses that comprise the Grande Diplome are in no way "dumbed down" for anyone - the course is the essentially the same worldwide... I still don't understand why these schools are given such a lynching - Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, no one seems to think these schools are the devil's spawn, why so then for cooking schools?

Why? How? Are "hobbyists" somehow inferior to aspiring chefs?

Lesley, I have done the 10 hours of hygiene and I have done more than 10 hours of tools and equipment - I am really looking forward to the accounting and the menu writing portions, as well as the Master Chef Buffet and Banqueting course - And you know what? If I lived in Australia, I would have taken the full masters program.... I still disagree with you, and I am so happy that the schools of the world disagree with your plan also....

Although I would not have traded Vassar for CIA at that age, I see what you mean... You will really enjoy FCI and I'm sure it will also bring back loads of memories!

Yesterday we had a midterm exam and today my class put on a "tea party" for other students, chefs and guests - I took the opportunity to take an informal poll of opinions on this subject we have been hashing out - the general consensus is that there can be a zillion reasons as to why one person would want to go to cooking school, none of them any less valid than the other one - No one seemed to think that it was necessary or even a consideration to separate one from the others or have different courses - the easier or part time classes will always be available to those that want to take them, but for those that are more serious - go for it! As for the question asking in class either by real-age or mature students or dilettantes or hobbyists - lets remember one thing, there is no such thing as a stupid question... There always gong to be one in every batch who asks countless questions, they are not always the ones you expect... Oh, and I got a 90 on my midterm, the highest grade in the class of 12 chefs-to-be who are currently staging at various venues around London

Jaz, beans, rdailey - you all beat me to it - I was out to dinner, paying a chef a handsome sum of money to feed me! All great arguments! There certainly are many people in this world who have gone to law, medical, dentistry, all types of schools and are not practicing, so what, should they be segregated into different schools? Lesley, maybe if you start a school for pros and one for amateurs you can start "bussing" programs between the two types of schools, wouldn't that be modern?! And why are you confused Lesley? I am at LCB for both personal interest and fr the profession, is that so hard to believe? Like I said, don't put people in boxes.... As for the fees, everyone and anyone has access to the webpage, look it up yourself.... why does it matter so much to you? OH, and by the way, you say about all the programs in France, where do you think LCB started? Really, go read the webpage...

Lelsley, I think you are the pne missing the point - WHy do I (or anyone) have to be poor and struggling to be a chef? What difference could it possibly make? Is a Michelin starred chef still working to "pay the bills" as you put it? NO, does that make him less of a chef? As for your technique comments, in a Michelin star restaurant, you bet it matters if your brunoise is better than the next guy's! As for the years of experience, yes, you are right, but that does not mean that I can't achieve that level, some chefs spend 6 months in Garde Manger, others 3 years... depends on the person 100% percent... And pressure? Why is there no pressure for amateurs to succeed? Have you not taken into account personal satisfaction, competitiveness and pride? The chefs at LCB put the same amount of pressure on every student, as I said before, they don't always know who is who, nor do they care! And I have certainly had my share of of nose to nose events with the chefs, don't you worry! Everyone deserves a great education, wether it be in English, Maths, Biology or Cooking - Imagine of you went to an inner city neighbourhood and told the people there that they did not deserve the same kind of education as those who were going to "do something" with it.... You take pottery classes? Great! Fabu! I have taken a 30 week qualifying diploma program, not a cookie baking class. I feel this qualifies me to enter the professional world as much if not more than some of my classmates, no matter what my background or intentions... Jane: Great points - innate talent plays a great part in any endeavour, even in cooking! Sandra: I think some pros resent the fact that someone else may have the talents and abilities to become part of "their world" - Other pros are way more open to fostering new talent...where would we all be without them?? NeroW: Here here!!! You tell 'em!! KelMH: I did not say you were rude at all...re-read what I wrote...

Nikki, the school is open to anyone, and yes, there are ways people can attend without paying full price - you can take the basic cuisine or patiss, a 10 week course, and then work 10 weeks in the basement kitchen, this goes as partial payment for a cuisine course or full payment for a patiss course... and so on fo rthe full course... It is not only open to people with money, at all... and it is not substantially more expensive than other schools in London - except of course the community colleges, where I have been told that the lobster demos is conducted witha plastic, yes, plastic lobster! Very educational, no? Lesley, why does having to and wanting to make a difference? Also, I have sent a PM to "TPTB" in an effort to move this thread...

Lesley I disagree on SO many points!! First of all, LCB has pot washers, no one works the "dish pits" and for another record, the Grande Diplome program is available to anyone who wants to take it, it is the same for all - and the chefs DO NOT differentiate between types of students... Secondly, the people who go to LCB must know at least how to cut an onion, otherwise they would never survive basic, so someone who has never cooked is out of the picture anyway - people who go there already know how to cook...I knew how to cook when I got there... Speed - why should a home cook not work as fast as a kitchen chef? Is there a rule that says things have to take longer at a home? NO Working class - yes, there are many, many students who come from working class or below, I have two friends whose parents in India spent all their money to send them here - there are also very rich chefs to be, as well as rich and poor "amateurs" as you call them - yes professional cooking may be blue collar, but there are plenty of chefs who are not blue collar out there - you cannot generalize like that, putting people in boxes is a very dangerous thing.... As far as mixing pros and amateurs - what happens when the housewives start doing better in school than the chefs to be? I recieved distinctions in all my courses so far, while several students aiming t be chefs did below average or failed.... maybe that's why the "pros" don't always like to be around the "wives"... And why should advanced knife skills be a luxury in the home cook - if the home cook wants to take the trouble to learn - who is to say no? If you were to translate what you are saying into other fields of education it might sound something like this: "Well let's see, this student is not going to be a professor, therefore we should only teach him to read in a most basic level, forget the Shakespeare, forget the good stuff, beacuse he doesn't need it and doesn't deserve to learn it" does this sound right??? Now, for the record, before you go after me - I have worked in kitchens and I fully intend to now go and continue doing stages as and when I want, I have not had a problem doing this before, nor do I forsee any problems again - I will work because I want to and I will work for the experience - I can also tell you I know for a fact that I work better than some of those "pros" I graduated with, I have heard this form several chefs... All of this does not make me any less of of a "pro" than anyone else... When I first arrived at LCB I did not tell anyone my "status" or motivations, yet I found a lot of the students resenting the fact that there were people there who were obviously taking the course for fun, and could afford to do so...why? jealousy maybe? Is it wrong to pay a lot of money to do something you like to do? again - NO fresco, Jinmyo, yes, yes and yes! As for KelMH - I don't even know where to start with your post without being incredibly rude, so I'll leave it...

Right, my program at LCB is the Grande Diplome program, which, in Paris is pretty much what you can take - this is program completeley geared to training the professional - in my basic cuisine class there were chefs to be, there were some housewives, there were carreer changers, there was even a high level solicitor who had just retired at the age of 60 and was completely bored at home - he had never cooked in his life, but was willing to give it a go... Clearly, even a chef's training program as intense as this attracts "the common housewife" ... In the case of the book, I no only take issue with the housewife commen, as I am one, but with the South American issue, which I am one as well... What excatly does this author know about South American housewives and their motivations? Probably a little bit less than I know about the motivations of the 50 year old Japanese lady currently in my Superior Patisserie course (?) Does it all matter? It doesn't matter what course anyone chooses, it can be the most intense of training courses or the most relaxed - any course can attract any audience... Suzanne: Too right! You've cleared on batch of consomme, you can clear a million!!

I still don't understand why a housewife to be cannot have the same training as a chef, is she not worthy of chef training b/c she will not work in a restaurant? At LCB we have made the 300 truffles, we have also tunnel boned 55 pigeons at one time for a special dinner, we have also learned to make endless litres of stock - we have also poached one egg at a time until it is perfect - all skills that would benefit anyone who wants to cook seriously, even a "just a housewife" I'll probably read this book just so I can fume my way through it!

While this is true, is there anything wrong with it? Is there a reason why someone who can afford Le Cordon Bleu should not go to LCB to learn to cook, wether for their husbands or themselves? There is nothing that says you HAVE to become a chef after gradutaing LCB, just as there is nothing that says you have to become a historian just beacuse you majored in History at university....

Not really. But, when I was growing up my father sat to my left at the head of the table and if I chanced to have my left elbow on the table I would soon receive the tines of his fork to remind me of proper manners. See, I don't remember ever hearing or seeing that until we moved to the States... My husbands grandmother used a butter knife for the same purposes - a bit more humane?

And their fork as well... Apparently same holds true for chopsticks. My sister lived in China for six months and said that the people she knew there were always telling her to hold the chopsticks quite near the ends because only common people hold them halfway down. Which ends? The higher you hold them, the higher class you are (meaning hold the close to the top as opposed to close to the food end) Just like a fork - like when someone puts their index finger on the bowl of the fork as they are cutting?? eeecchhhh -

Thank you, I'll send my mother.

And their fork as well... Apparently same holds true for chopsticks. Anyone know the reason for "elbows off the table"???

Geneva has a little fondue place that is clean, nice, and has good cheese fondue - leave it to the Swiss... In Lanzarote there is a little cafeteria that serves a mean tortilla de papas in a baguette...