peterpumkino

No, no, no, please don't. Please leave it for Real people to enjoy. Thanks so much.

Well it does seem that Polish people do not understand irony. Of course I know who Marchesi is! I've met him on two occassions but, frankly, I didn't think the food at Erbusco was that great - too French and if that's what I want I go to France. There's a really small, very local very Italian restaurant quite near Erbusco at Chiari (25 kms West on the state road from Brescia to Milano) called Il Vecchio Portico (+39 030713295). Of course a certain Pollack I know wouldn't like it because there are no cook books about it.

So what? 'Not even Gualtiero Marchesi' - who he?

Sorry, the gremlins did their bit on my last, important line. What I meant to say was I am aware that I have been accused of being an oaf but when someone says that he 'applies higher standards' that is telling us all that Mr Plotnicki knows better than any of us! What piffle.

First of all I ate in Padstow and was NOT impressed by his cooking. The best fish I have had outside of Italy strangely enough was a couple of thousand miles inland at the Aspen version of Nobu's in the Little Nell's restaurant. As far as I'm concerned virtually EVERY Italian restaurant cooks wonderful, fresh, expertly seasoned fish. That's a given and therefore there is no need to shut it from the rooftops. But is this 'haute cuisine'? Probably not. Is this wonderful and far better than Stein's? Most definitely yes.

could you copy me? And me! Surely the whole point of a board like this is to exchange opinions regardless of right or wrong therefore to have 'secret' pm's hidden away defeats the whole purpose and anybody subscribing to this view should be banned from the site. It's far too easy to 'cop out' by pming when the going get's tough.

Can you not get it into your stubborn Polish head that the Italian's don't care about the 'Worldwide scene'. They don't care about Steve Polanski, they don't care about Peter Pumkino - all they care about is that their food is fabulous and their standard are very high. As I said before, you can eat very badly in France - it's virtualy impossible in Italy. I've had the pleasure of going to Arazak (twice, once before it was 'known') and not only did I not think that it was overated but, for me, they were of the best meals I've had (and, yes, before you get sarcastic, I've had many, many, truly great meals). So you see Steve, either you are terribly wrong or you have to admit that what your saying is In Your Humble Opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

That's exactly the point Adam, but Mr. Plootnik doesn't see it this way (he knows better you see).

Whose list is this?

I don't know what happened to the actual quote but Steve Plunicki said something about he wants the food in Italy the way HE wants it. My Gawd, can you imagine! Gourmet Spaghetti with meat balls served by a celebrity chef standing on a large TV and talking with a phony French accent! Steve, the Italian food is cooked for Italians, they don't care about what you want!

No, Steve, it's your opinion. Furthermore you seem to equate TV Chefs with 'gourmet'. You must be talking about the UK as I have seen many TV shows in Italy with top Italian chefs - so what? You didn't address my point about ambiente either. PS Carpaccio of Pulpo is NOT Calamare. PSS By your posting you have demonstrated your depth of knowledge of cuisine in Italy: I have NEVER seen Spaghetti and Meat Balls on an Italian restaurant in Italy! That's an American dish, didn't you know that Steve? Oh, sorry, I lied, I did see it offered once on a menu in a Holiday Inn in Rome, it was called Spaghetti Alla Perla (Pearl) and the waiter (who was very embarassed) said it was created especially for the Americans as that is what they expect in an Italian restaurant! Based on the above I do not feel you have the necessary experience to talk constructively about Italian food in Italy.

Yes, it does seem that this whole discussion balances on what is considered as 'gourmet' - is it cooking with ultra-fresh ingredients? is it Asia fusion (i.e. spaghetti with Thai mussels in a Wasabi sauce!), is it only innovative food (in other words all the old favourites are 'out'), is it a price thing? I recently had a Carpaccio of squid which consisted of wafer-thin slices of squid (so thin that you could almost see through it) with a wonderful drizzle on top which was really memorable- one of the best dishes I've tasted in years - was this gourmet? (after all the chef told me that he had started early that day as the slicing of the squid was important, time-consuming and a very delicate procedure). This was Italian (it Italy). Yes, Steve, I've been to four of the restaurants in the Gambero list but I wasn't over-impressed as I don't really think that that's Italian cuisine. They serve food that I don't really want when I go for an Italian meal so there's a problem with semantics here. One further thing just to put the cat amongst the pigeons: a recent survey of customers in London put service as 44% of the total satisfaction of a dinner (the food was only 8%). That's an incredible statistic and, if true, shows how shallow people really are BUT, having said that, the difference between the comfort zone of a French and Italian irestaurant is amazing. I went to a Michelin in Chamonix and, although the place was empty, the Maitre D' huffed and puffed and looked around and sighed before finally leading us to a table (the place was not full that night) and gave us a menu with a sniff. The next night I went through the tunnel to Courmayer in Italy and the restaurant I vsited was packed to the gills of everyone having a wonderful time, the Padrone instead of huffing and puffing assured me that he would find me something and did and me and my partner had a wonderful meal in a place that wanted us. Which, Steve, is 'gourmet'??

All I have ever really said is that Italian food as cooked in Italy is by far my favourite food. Going out on a Sunday afternoon and eating for 5 hours is something that I really treasure and I believe that others would too if they only knew what they were missing. In regards to Steve not liking Piemontese food, that his perogative and, in return, I'm pretty sure that I would not appreciate his style of dining. It seems to be that quite a few of you are extremely sanctimonious (and, Adam, please do not tell me not to post, that's out-of-order, you soun d like an American as they love telling you how free it is in America and then introduce restrictions that no other country has!). In regards to Polenta that is funny. First of all you just don't get Polenta in a genuine Italian restaurant, it's reserved for mountain or country trattorias or Osterias. The Italians find it amusing that Polenta is a fashionable dish outside of Italy (they find it even more amusing when they find out that some chefs serve it 'fancied up' - to them it's like fancying up porridge - come to think of it that's exactly what it is!).

I think if you check the current thread about eating in Piemonte it will answer everybody's questions about Italy's cultural revelance (or it should do).

My point exactly. However to say 'opposite of French cooking' you have to clarirify this a bit. Let's be really honest here and say that 'average' French cuisine can be unbelievably bland and boring. I mean what's so gourmet about 'moules et frites' or 'steak et frites'? So I do think that your 'average' restaurants in Italy is far, far superior to your 'average' restaurant in France. What everybody on this site is referring to is high-end cuisine and, while I agree it can be truly memorable, it's also very, very expensive. Again I'm talking 'generally' so please do not send examples of great and very cheap French restaurants as I know they exist but there a lot of realy bad restaurants out there! ps I went to Cap Varnet in Paris 2 weeks ago (recommended on this very site) with a friend who knows his stuff about food, and the food was really lousy. Even the 'best' oysters were not very good and yet I had had great oysters there only 2 weeks previously. Can anyone explain why? Was it just 'one of those things'. I would think that maybe it was me but my friend was disgusted as well. We went around the corner to Florian's for dessert and it was great as was the atmosphere.

Apart from the fact that I think you are talking pretentious claptrap (sounds good though) I say always 'Italian food as served in Italy' got it Tony: 'Italian food as served in Italy' . And change is good as is invention but what's wrong with the old favourites? After all we all love a great Sunday lunch with the roast or a good Pizza or a 23 Oz Porterhouse as served in America. I am not against new ideas and I like 'Italian food as served in Italy' . Write on the blackboard a 100 times...... ps please do not misquote me and please do not speak on my behalf 'leads to cries from...' it doesn't.

That's EXACTLY my point. I want to the Antica and did not think it was wonderful at all, it was quite good but not really what I wanted. I wanted 'Italian food as it is cooked in Italy', and this was not it. This was quasi-French food as cooked in Italy. Locatelli's for me is the same - he studied at Torre D'Argent so it's 'French food with a touch of Italian as cooked in London'!!. I'm not knocking it and I am not saying that people who love this food are wrong - I am simply saying it is not Italian food is all.

My point exactly. The minute you get into fancy territory the French win all the time so if you want to get the best from Italian food you have to go to a 'typical' Italian restaurant. By typical I do not necessailly mean 'regional' (some people on this site get hung up on regions - must be an anal thing) just really good normal Italian food. I could give a million examples but I'll stick to one only. Il Carpaccio in Milano near Piazza Republicca on Via Palazzi (tel: +39 (02) 29405982). Go in there and order just fish or meat (no dishes) and ask them to keep it coming. They will bring you quite a few appetizers, a couple of different pastas and a main course. You will not be ripped off, the food is fabulous and by not actually ordering you get to try dishes that you wouldn't order yourself. The owner is a great 'tipo' give him my regards, tell I'm the little English guy who always has a different girl (he's Italian - hr'll know). That's a great example and at half the price of the Michelin's.

Forget the best food as my American friends always tell me how much better it is the States anyway. Be a poseur and go to The Ivy (if you can get in tel: 0044 (0207) 836 4751). The food is very good in a British sort of way and it's always a Real Experience plus prices are really not that bad for the most famous restaurant in London. Peter. ps Don't let anyone talk you out of this one!

Good point but. and I'm going to get s**t for this, I honestly feel that not many people have actually eaten and appreciated Italian food (as it is served in Italy). It really takes a while to get used to but once you get it, wow! Especially the Antipasti Tray with up to 30 different (and wonderfully fresh) antipasti which you very rarely get outside of Italy.. Could it be that, outside Italy, Italian cuisine is thought of as 'cheap' (let's face it there are many cheap Italian and Pizzerias around - very few, if any, French) and this tends to colour the opinion generally of Italian cuisine?

Actually you make some important points. What many people outside of Italy don't realise is that home-made pasta is not necessarily the best as it is so soft it doesn't do 'al dente' very well. In fact I prefer bought pasta as it is much more robust than home-made and I have been in restaurants where they give you a choice: same sauce but choice of home-made or not.

I'm impressed, you DO read everything don't you? And not only that but you know what you are talking about. What you described as bad about Sardo's is exactly what I go on and on about in Non-Italy Italian restaurants: the balance. The heavy sauce and far too much of it and the pasta that is over-cooked is a good example! So, now I know you have it tell me, what IS your list of favourite Italian restaurants in the UK? Somebody who 'gets' Metro Pizza is a friend of mine!

If that's what you really think then there's no more to say. Where is The Olive Garden, Tony? It's a a very popular 'restaurant' chain in America (on a par with Witherspoons) and maintains it's 'Italian'.

Maybe it's me, but it seems that some of what is written on this site regarding Italian cuisine is quite informative but most of what is written is a lot of bigoted, uninformed trash. Now I'm used to everyone ignoring and/or trashing me BUT when someone, Robert Brown, finally comes along and says it exactly as it is he is totally ignored. Thanks Robert anyway.

Bux, I'm afraid I have a sneaking suspicion that you read what you want to read and then make your own assumptions accordingly. I repeat (and please read this) - I do not use Michelin in Italy as I have found that I prefer Italian restaurants in Italy and Michelin do lean towards French cuisine. It's a personal preference. I personally feel it should be used sparingly and as a guideline. It is not the Bible IMHO but it's an easy way out for those not wishing to 'take a chance'. I certainly have used Michelin quite a bit in France (but not exclusively) as I have found that you will rarely have a bad meal using it. I have also found it is very helpful in Spain but, again, not exclusively. Does that clear this up once and for all?