glennbech

Dan Lepard also has a lot of mixed recipes in his book "the handmade loaf". I think one of the reasons is that his "white leaven bread" is very time consuming. Its a Pure sourdough, with only has 20% of the flour in the pre-ferment, and that the recipe clearly states to keep the dough cold (room temp, around 20-25c). It takes at least 4 hours to bulk ferment, and 4-5 hours to proof. (Im trying it out, with an over-night retardation, right now, will bake and report back tomorrow). My "basic" recipe has around 33% of the flour in the pre-ferment, and I always use a "proofing lamp" that keeps the dough at about 29-30c. I guess It's a matter of taste, The Dan Lepard recipe will probably be a bit sour compared to my "usual" recipe, as the temperature has been kept where the Lb. SF bactera tries, and the yeast is not so happy. So! I guess that Mixed doughs can be fine when you want the SD taste, but don't have the time. I think most Mixed doughs in Dan's book the handmade loaf can be made in 3-4 hours total. Another technique I've had good experiences with is to make a sponge with baker's yeast (2-3 grams, the size of a pea). It takes about 2-3 hours at 25-30c to fully activate. I then cut the amount of baker's yeast at least in half or even more, and increase bulk/proofing times a bit. It's a great way to reduce the yeasted taste. I'll definitly keep you all posted on my version of Dan Lepard's "White leavan Bread" :-) I proofed the loaves for 1 hour before retarding them (wich overnight should equal to about 2 hours of proof). The plan is to take them out of the fridge a couple of hours before baking and let them get back to room temperature. Glenn

Today's Sourdough question from me Some recipes include both yeast and sourdough. Is the sourdough presence mainly for taste, or rising as well? I guess the answer is both, since such recipes often have a reduced yeast weight and longer bulk&proof times. (This recipes are quite common in Norway, and are sold as "sourdough" bread. It's only a few bakeries that actually have 100% SD available. ) As far as I know, and from my limited experience, Yeast and sourdough have very different "activation times". And in my experiments, I suspect most of the rise actually comes from the yeast. This is ofcourse very difficult to be sure of. - I know for a fact that 2-3g of comercial fresh yeast, mixed to a sponge of 100g water/100g white flour "activates" (Doubles or more, before "dropping off") in about 2,5 hours at about 30c. - My sourdough starter does the same thing with 10-20g starter mixed to the same sponge, fully activates in 7 hours. Some issues I've been thinking about is ; - How the rising capabilities of those two sponges compare. I'd like to mix a 65% hydration dough with both sponges, put them in measring jars and take notes over time. Did somebody try this ? - Another issue is that most recipes use crumbled fresh yeast, and a fully activated sourdough sponge. I guess this is a great Idea, since the yeast will not be fully active until about 2-3 hours, something that should give the sourdough time to multiply. However, I'm very unsure of what actually goes on timing wise. - How does the comercial fresh yeast tolerate the low PH, and the sinking PH value of the dough as the Lb. SF gains "control" over the dough. Any input on any rised issue will be valued .-) Happy baking!

That looks great tracey! It seems that you got some spring, and the crumb looks fluffy and nice! By the way; I tried out Dan Lepard's Cornmeal&onion sticks this weekend. The technique is a bit like baking danish pastry I guess. You stretch the dough into a rectangle, sprinkle with lots of olive oil, fold it, let it rest, and stretch it back out again and continue sprinkling, folding and stretching for a long time. It is then baked cut into long "sticks" and baked crisp. A bit like the ones shown here ; http://www.unionecuochifvg.com/manifestazi.../grissini_d.jpg They were excellent! I also hava a Rye starter going on now, so be prepared for more experimental sourdough posts from me in the near future!

Well... I guess this is a general bread baking question... How do We keep the crust crisp? I find my crusts softening just hours after baking. Is it natural for bread to get a rubbery crust after a day or so, or does it have something to do with air humidity ? Anything we can do, except accepting that it's something to eat fresh?

That's high protein indeed .-) I was considering buying one of these ; http://www.electricshopping.com/shop/kenwo....do?pvSKU=AT941 Have anyone any experience with mill attachments to kitchen machines? What's the main advantage of milling in the kitchen, except for the obvious sentimental value?

Yesterday I was very successfull with a "One day" process, letting the pre-ferment build up during working hors, fermenting, shaping, proofing and baking between 18-19 and 00:00. Quiz Time ! I try to get 2 hours and bulk fermentation, and then 2-3 hours of proofing. Will spending more time result in ; 1) more spring 2) better/more taste 3) better texture/crumb 4) Better crust 5) All of the above I Bought another 22 pounds/10 kilos of white flour yesterday. A Hobby where one can eat one's mistakes, is not bad. Not bad at all :-) Since Im baking for my parent's Silver anaversary with a "tapas" theme, Im going to try a self invented "black pesto" bread with olives today... I'll keep you informed .-)

Please don't listen to me, Im all wrong .-) I found the article I was looking for here ; http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/science.html If you look at the chart you see that the lacto bacteria trives best at higher temperatures, and that the yeast grows better in the lower range. If you want "sour" bread, you should maybe try to bulk ferment at 86f-87f or something. Note that the yeast activity drops of at those temperatures. http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/table.html I guess It all boils down to how scientific you want to get .-) ... Or if you're happy with a sour summer bread, and not so sour winter bread .-)

I understand. There are a lot of variables as well. My fridge is a noisy old one. If it's drafty and not very efficient, I guess the cooling process can take more time. Another factory that may come into play, is the fact that I proof my loaves at 30c, wich gives them a significanly longer "cooldown" time, compared to a 21-22c loaf that would have been the case with "room temperature". About 2,5 hours of bulk ferment, and overnight in the fridge works well for me now, so I'm quite happy .-) I guess the trick is to tweak variables of the process small amounts at a time to get the optimal process for "your own" environment. Thanks for the help and insight! It is appreciated.

Yup. Reducing initial bulk ferment time helped a bit. I shorted it down to about 2,5 hours (half hour rest / knead cycle), and two hours of bulk fermentation. I got a far better spring and a more "shallow" gringe. I also suspect that the yeast activity is more or less suspended at 10-15c. And the only "proofing" that really happens in the dough inside the fridge is during "cooldown". From my limited experience, I havn't noticed any significant differnece in loaves proofed at 15c for 8-10 hours (like my last atempt, kept on the balcony) and loaves proofed at 4c for a longer period. It seems that the total "bulk ferment" time has a larger impact on the total size of the dough. Any points of view on this ?

I had a bad experience today with a black crust stripe across the bottom of my bread, I guess I found one of the heating elements .-) I went out and bought myself the thickes floor tile I could find (at about $10, I think that was a bargain). We'll see if it works tomorrow morning .-)

I can't possibly imagine that it should have anything to do with it .-) Another thing that struck my mind was temperature. The bacteria/yeast activity is determined by temperature. If you proof/bulk ferment for longer, and at lower temperatures, you should get a more "sour" result (I believe)

Bill; ' A photo of the cut loaf would have helped, but judging from the gringe I would say the loaf was about 1/2 to 1 hour past its baking prime, in other words a little overproofed. Just because a loaf is still growing when proofing does not mean that it is not past its prime baking time, remember that a loaf is at its biggest just before it collapses. ← I think you're right. I usually bulk ferment (and do hourly "flips") for 3-4 hours, then I shape into a boule and puts my loaf into a proofing basket, and then into the fridge. I think 12-13 hours in the fridge is probably a bit to much .-) By the way; here's the crumb. Do you mind sharing what you look for in the crumb when deciding wether a loaf is under/over proofed ? I'm not sure how to counter counter this, as Im seriously dependent of the flexibility the fridge proofing gives me, when it comes to baking time. Maybe I should reduce bulk ferment time?

Be carefull about the cleaning. I totally wrecked a $150 scale thinking it could be cleaned with a lot of water .-)

I think thats beautiful bread! How did the crumb look? While reading this thread I have to say, Glenn, That you've come a long way...you're doing great ←

I also made my own proofing baskets from regular baskets and some linnen cloth. I cannot tell you how much better these work than my futile tupperware atempts. Nothing has yet sticked to my floured linnen. I think the important thing is that the surface, that is in conact with the basket "breathes"; The tupperware is plastic and gets wet, the baset is full of holes and lets air in. A huge difference. Have a look ; http://www.glennbech.com/2006/05/making-proving-baskets.html

I Bake at the bottom of my electric oven, in direct contact with the heat source. Using baking parchment paper of course. Can anyone say anything about the benefits of using a stone (other than that it's way much cooler to have a stone in your oven) over using my method?

What you are saying kind of verifies my limited experience so far. Good to hear that from a veteran .-) It almost semems that there is a constant amount of rise that can be expected, and that it will either come from oven spring or proofing. if you proof more, less oven spring, proof less means more spring. I might be a bit off here, but to me, it seems that Rising as a result of oven spring create more rough looking loaves as the loaf opens up the "gringe". I've also noticed a more uneven crumb, more holes, and larger holes at the bottom, near the heat source. Longer Proofing seems to produce a more even crumb, and less markant gringe on the bread. However for beginners like me, longer proofing is kind of an "assurance" that the loaf will get at least some level of rise. This is a loaf that I retarded in the fridge for about 10 hours before baking. It rised a lot, even when it came into the cold refrigerator. http://www.glennbech.com/uploaded_images/whiteleaven.jpg For the sake of the argument, and for educational purposes; How would you guys judge this loaf? Overproofed, underproofed or well proofed ? Or is this just a matter of taste/prefernce ?

About a moist crust... I've noticed the following things happen the first hour after taking the loaf out of the oven ; 1) The Loaf os HOT, and sounds hollow whne I tap it. Crust is very hard and crispy. 2) The loaf cools down and I can hear "cracking" as it sets. 3) The loaf starts to cool further and is getting softer. I guess moist from the crumb is starting to affect the crust. 4) The loaf is cool, and the crust is not crispy anymore. Am I doing something wrong ? The one i baked (previous) post is lying on the table top, uncovered, and are staying until I get home in 6 hours. Will this help? How much does air humidity have to do with crust becoming soft? Anything I can do to counter it?

Got up early today to bake this; - Simple white leaven bread, 600g. It was a real pleasure to work with since the dough were tighter than normal. I forgot to measure in the "actual" hydration of my pre-ferment this time (it dehydrated by 13% overnight!), and instead of getting a 67% bread as planned, i got a 63%. Since I'm chicken, and didn't dare to go "all the way up" on my oven temperature for the first 5 minutes, and because of the reduced hydration, this didn't get as much spring as I hoped for. But It looks good, smells good, and hopefully tastes good as well .-) Remember to weigh your pre-ferment before baking with it ! .-) you *might* think it's 150g flour & 150g water in there, after 12 hours, but it most probably isn't ! :-)

well; your dog eating your loaf is kind of a compliment... Isn't it ? Looks like you got real good spring, even if it's a bit hard to say from that angle. Nice and golden crust, looks very tasty .-) I've been reading up a bit on the microbiology behind the sourdough processes. It seems that the Bacteria living in symbiosis with the yeast is utilizing maltosis, which is useless to the yeast. Any recipes with added maltosis? I believe beer brewers are very familiar with that product. Anyone ?

You're absolutely right here. It's the process that works for you routine that counts .-) I have a question about storage; If the loaf is to be eaten two days from baking, will it keep most fresh put in the freezer, or just wrapped in paper? Any Ideas on when to Freeze, and when to wrap?

What temperatures do Hamelman and Silverton suggest? I know that Dan Lepard suggest adding water at 20c, and claims "room" temperature" to be at around 25 in his book "The handmade loaf" that is.. When proofinfg and bulk-fermenting the same day, I try to keep my dough at 30c, and use a proofing setup as I showed earlier with a halogen lamp and a digital thermometer. My theory is that 30c favours the yeast, and the dough rises well, but will become less sour. Lower the temp a bit, and the dough will rise slower, and become more sour. This is just my prefernece. I've seen the Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis vs. yeast graph at different temperatures somewhere around here, but where not able to dig it up. Devlin; What I really mean, and what is really relevant to your question, is that initial water temp. is not very important, when you're bulk fermenting for 3-4 hours, and proofing for the same amount of time. If you take no special action (like artifiicial heating) the dough will move towards "room temperatore", whatever that is during that time .-) I'm considering making myself a "proofing/fermenting" box, with a "electric heating blanket", and an insulated box so that I can experiment with differnet results, from let's say 25c and 31c ...

Desiderio: They look real good! :-) How long did you proof then and how? If the dough is very wet, you need some kind of support right ? Looks tasty as well .-)

... And here's a shot of my setup for provong. The measuring cup is for looking how the dough goes by, in the bottom right corner there's a digital thermometer that keeps track for the temperature at the dough. There's a 20W halogen lamp that keeps this system at aproxemately 30c ... The proving basket is all wrapped in a plastic bag from the local supermarket do avoid dehydration. ... Any other good ideas ? :-)

I'll try to stick to your question. :-) To make proper bread out of this you'll need gluten to make air pockets. I can see that you have both High Gluten Flour and a Gluten addative as well. I guess that's good .-) You'll also need starch as fuel for the yeast, so that It can fill those gluten pockets with carbon dioxide. I guess this is where the problem begins, because starch = carbs. I guess you'll just have to experiemnt a bit, (sounds expensive *grin*). A few things you could try ; - Double proofing and bulk fermentation. - Use Wet Doughs (65% hydrarion + ). Retard the dough overnight in fridge before baking to maximize oven spring. - Soda breads would work just as well as with a high-carb flour I guess. Good luck wit the baking experience, and keep us posted of the results!