robert brown

Holly, the Villa Florentine on the edge of the Vielle Ville is the classy joint in Lyon. It's a Relais et Chateaux address. It's expensive, but not crazy expensive. Otherwise there's Le Cours des Loges, another renovation of an old building, perhaps a tad less expesive. It was THE place to stay before the Villa Florentine. Cours des Loges is more interesting as a building, Villa Florentine a bit more luxe. I'm always a fan of La Mere Brazier. It's a classic; still intact from the days of the various "Meres" de Lyon. It's gastronomic history that is unrivaled. Le Bistro de Lyon I went to summer before last. I didn't like it; it's a new-fangled attempt to recreate a classic "bouchon". Lyon is crawling with these places. La Mere Brazier is the "real deal". A day trip you might consider is Tailloires on the Lake of Annecy. The bay there may be the single most beautiful piece of real estate in France, especially where the hotel-restaurant Le Pere Bise sits. Even in winter it's breathtaking. You could go there for lunch. It can be expensive and is nowhere as good as when it was until Francois Bise died prmaturely three decades ago. If you order the classic "Poulet a L'Estragon", a cheese course and desserts from the chariot at a front table with a lake view, you will be a very happy couple. Nearby there is the cooperative of Beaufort where you can go and watch them make the cheese. Annecy itself is very picturesque with a lovely old section. Otherwise kicking around Les Halles de Cours de la Victoire is gastronomic sightseeing at its best; no better place to shop for a picnic. (Edited by robert brown at 11:14 pm on Jan. 22, 2002) (Edited by robert brown at 11:16 pm on Jan. 22, 2002)

David, It was worth the wait and I greatly appreciate your getting the information. I will try to find out more now that you gave me a lead. Nice work.

La Cagouille has been my favorite fish place in Paris. However, my last meal there about 2-1/2 years ago was my least favorite. I have a recollection, as well, of seeing either a Gault-Millau downgrade or something about its being in decline. Nonetheless, it's not a bad place to have to end up in. My advice is to order a simply-prepared piece of fish. I have had great "saumon a l'unilateral" (lightly-cooked on one side) and terrific turbot. Avoid stews and complicated sauce-type dishes and you could end up being very happy unless the decline is a result of using inferior or less-than-impeccably-fresh products. Is there anyone who has been there lately?

This August my wife and I ordered a duck with black pepper sauce at Maximin in Vence. The waitress (I use this word because our waitperson was female) brought out the entire duck to a serving table and preceeded to grapple with it much longer and in more clumsy fashion than a well-trained, experienced person. Now here is an instance where the chef wanted the clients to see the entire duck, which was much better to look at in its perfectly-cooked state and robust appearance. Carving it in the kitchen and bringing it straight to the eaters' table would have made the presentation a mundane, second-rate experience. There are dishes that need this kind of special tableside treatment even if a young waiter or waitress doesn't carve it with aplomb. Maybe this is the exception these days as for reasons that Bux elucidate. However, I bet many a chef who is accomplished or has aspirations would like to have the luxury of choice. (Edited by robert brown at 11:10 pm on Jan. 17, 2002)

Speaking of old style service, I miss the old guys at Ratner's who, when they brought your order, left a little daylight between the top of the table and the bottom of the plate. To be serious, Steven assessed the situation just about right. The problem is that anything can happen when the service side of what is called"restauration" is no longer a lifetime profession for which one studies formally as one does in Europe. For a while I thought there was talk here of some intensive training in that regard, even if it wasn't a multi-year undertaking. Does, for example, the lack of training in tableside service, particularly carving, influence how chefs in America prepare fowl? One of the main reponsibilities of a waiter or waitress is to facilitate and support the work of the kitchen by, most important, getting the food to the table before the food becomes compromised. Has anybody thought about how the training and the competence of dining room staff and kitchen support staff (sous-chefs, line chefs,etc.) affect what we eat or how food is made? I haven't seen anything on this. I'm sorry if I nudge the topic at hand over to other concerns. (Edited by robert brown at 12:15 pm on Jan. 17, 2002) (Edited by robert brown at 12:19 pm on Jan. 17, 2002)

Judging from this, Grimes is a better social critic than a restaurant one. He failed to mention that it is his media buddies, as much as anyone, that got us to the state of affairs about which he complains.

Rstarobi, I forgot to mention that if you want a modestly-priced break from French food, there is a restaurant behind and to the right of the Noga Hilton called "Mandarin". I haven't eaten there since they had a simple restaurant not far from the RR station (mid '80s), but it was very good then and probably good now. I find that your "average" Chinese/Vietnamese restaurant in France is perkier and cleaner tasting than those of a similar level in the big American cities. Have a great time. We look forward to your impressions. (Edited by robert brown at 7:48 pm on Jan. 16, 2002)

Surely beats the "Bleu de France". What's a "sad iron", Margaret?

Margaret, you mean it was all a set up? Nice work. It was a sweet post besides. I'll have to look out for one. Consider it a paying back for the "vide grenier".

Margaret, isn't that what you're suppose to do to a song at Les Halles?

Yes, but I'm an American. I wondered how that animal got there on their website. (Edited by robert brown at 11:02 pm on Jan. 14, 2002)

Bux and Steve P.: Thanks for the information about Ferran Adria. If I go to "El Bulli", is there a chance they'll push me around?

Holly, I'm almost tempted to recommend that you stay in or around Paris sleeping-wise and take days trips; otherwise find a hotel or two not far from Paris. As a fan of windy and rainy weather, I could easily recommend Normandie; Honfleur, Deauville/Trouville, Fecamp/ Etretat as just right for 4-1/2 days. There is good sightseeing: Cathedral of Rouen, the incredible ruins of the Abbey of Jumieges, the WWII Normandy Beaches, and of course the Bayeaux tapestries. There are fun restaurants for seafood (the moules a la creme at Les Vapeurs in Trouville are among my most treasured gastronomic memories). Le Pays d'Auge has good places to eat and it should be great fun hunting down the great DOC cheeses of Normandie and the cider and Calvados. All this is not very far from Paris. It makes a lot more sense than going down to the Cote d'Azur or even than more than 4-5 hours from Paris. The weather will be depressing, but there aren't so many great days a year in Normadie anyway. You could cover this from two nice hotels, maybe even one and maybe steal an extra night if your plane leaves CDG not so early.

Wilfrid, is the French Butcher on Second Avenue? JPB, I stopped going to the West Side Citarella for the most part since it is easier for me to go to the East Side store. It seems to me that the prepared foods look better on the West Side, but I can't honestly say about the fish, meat and produce. There are all kinds of tricks people play in my neighborhood, and it appears that no one is fastidious about throwing away stuff as soon as it is past its peak, be it fish, fruits, vegetables, and cheese. (Prepared and baked food as well). You know, they use Halogen lights, cut away the outside leaves, wrap cheese in several layers of cling wrap, and so forth. I also don't like when they limit your ability to buy just the amount that you really need; i.e three leeks tied together (not to mention carrots, arrugula in plastic wrappers, cheese already sliced, etc. Now you got me going on this stuff.

But he put on a lot of weight.

Steve, what do you like from the French Butcher? How's his horse meat? (Edited by robert brown at 11:40 pm on Jan. 13, 2002)

One would think after eating all those Butterfingers much of my life I would have dropped them by now.

Steve, have you ever tried Schaller & Weber? Good Traife; something you heard about as a little pisher. They have the best weisswurst in town. Recently, however, we had a standing veal roast that was superb. Their pork tenderloin is excellent as well. I suspect it is not the place for steaks, however. I'm off Citarella since their Mexican butcher gave me pot roast instead of loin of pork, which I didn't discover until I got home. I made the manager come to my house with the right piece of meat. In principle I don't like the store. The fish selection is inconsistent, the fruits and vegetable section is bad, the desserts are too sweet and the bread is not well-chosen. No one who works there seems very happy, as evidenced by the lack of lively, colorful workers around. People must like it because they get ten times the customers as the other Upper East Side "fine" food shops. All I really need to go there for is the gefilte fish and this sugar-free Belgian chocolate bar they sell. People should post more about these kinds of places and what they like and dislike. That they rarely do is a weak aspect of the site. Kvetching on-line, though, is problematic. And that's how you go from traife to kvetching. Sound familiar? (Edited by robert brown at 8:43 pm on Jan. 13, 2002)

Steve, after having Kinkead touted by a few Washingtonians, at least I know I'm not a complete curmudgeon. Then I didn't even know Pangaud landed in DC. I remember walking past his place in, I think, the 4th arrondissement. Was he in NY for a while? And maybe one of these days I can get you to talk about what you think of Little Washington. Your discussions about DC and Philly have me thinking about the global issue of what drives gastronomy, eating, chefs, and restaurants in the US, UK, and Europe. It's a monster-size matter that gets into areas of the mass media, PR, diversity and homogeniety of cuisines, etc. I think it is legitimate and valid to talk about the level or resources of a given city's dining, but rather insignificant to try to compare one city to another once you get past a place like New York which just has an overshelming number of restaurants. This is because culinary resources in such places are, I feel, driven by non-culinary factors, such as who decides to go into business where, the economic condition of the city in question, the culinary mass media, and where the entrepreneur has his roots. I am also curious to know if experienced professionals like yourself feel that the big cooking schools (CIA, Johnson & Wales) are creating this homogenity that I think exists at a certain level across the country, and if you think this is worth the price of having large trade schools such as those. I may be blowing my bankroll of future topics, but given recent postings,i.e. yours, and Adam Balic's tangentially-related one near the top of the "General" forum, it is worth starting to discuss them about now since they are in the air. (Edited by robert brown at 4:28 pm on Jan. 12, 2002)

Steven. We cannot accept your resignation, we are sorry to say. Adam, may I have some time to think? It's a thoughtful post that I hope gets many replies. For now, though, if I read your post correctly, you seem to be saying that the universal or general growth of interest in food may not imply greater individual knowledge about food or even the practice of searching superior produce or meals to the extent of refusing to settle for less. Is that the gist of your proposition?

Bux, as we have a naiscent Spain thread going and I am sitting here now for an hour waiting for Road Runner tech support, I may as well ask what people's experience with the vaunted tapas bar has been. When last in Madrid a few years ago, I went to Tapas Centrale in the square behind the Palace Hotel. Nearly uniformly, I found the tapas to be an exercise in grease ball and heaviness. Has anyone been tapas-bar hopping in Madrid (or elsewhere in Spain) who would like to share their experience, be it similar or contrary to mine? (Edited by robert brown at 11:34 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

Steve, our latest take on Tetou is that there are some shortcomings. We went with our pal from Rhode Island who really knows his fish and who felt that there was too much inferior fish in the bouilliabaisse. He also criticized the little crabs which were impossible to eat, even if they were there for flavoring. The good croutons and rouille may be a reason people think it's good. Prior to that we always enjoyed going there. So I suggest, Steve, that if everything falls into place, we do a survey and re-evaulation. Regardless, people who go there should consider starting with the tomatoes Provencal (one order for two) and when ordering the bouillabaisee one for two and even something like two for five. It also pays to pay the supplement for the addition of lobster. I missed Mario on the Cote d'Azur special, but my wife caught it. In it you can watch the chefs at Bacon prepare their bouilliabaisse. Read the Food Network schedule.

Bux, I just got off the phone with my brother. Also you beat me to the punch about the Musee Bonnat, which he said is a good provincial museum, but not quite on the level of Lyon. There is no Zurbaran there. I got confused because last year my brother went to the really good museum in Castres to look at a Ribera. Castres is a stop worth making, he said, with several good Spanish pictures including Goya's masterpiece. (Edited by robert brown at 11:22 am on Jan. 11, 2002)

Steve, I only throw you Good Bait. I went to Violin d'Ingres and all the clients were Americans, the four of us. Okay, it was lunch time. I guess we'll have to try to get around to discussing the above other issues next week. I happen to believe, having a MS in Communication Sciences, that the ways in which food/gastronomy is portrayed in our media is just as significant as to who is making what, be it dishes, wine, cheese, whatever.

Steve, Gault-Millau has lost its edge along with the restaurants themselves. I also think that wine magazines are pretty much a waste of time except for the hard info. (Corrupt as well). But that's not the issue. It's that they exist at all. As I suggested earlier, I think the most interesting phenomenon is that Americans have co-opted native French and even Italians;i.e. witness Plotkin and Willinger, in the dissemination of French and Italian cooking and restaurant opinion. I'm made very sceptical by the American-rooted gastronomic media. It's a topic well worth going into on e-Gullet. I will say for now that it's a two-edge sword. (Edited by robert brown at 9:32 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)