macrosan

Well what a lovely evening it was. There certainly is something different and very special about St John, a kind of joie de servir which generates a joie de manger. It comes from the bar staff, the kitchen staff and the front of house staff in equal measure, and is exactly reflected in the menu and the wine list and the food on the plate. I arrived first and manfully propped up the bar whilst nurturing a bottle of white wine I had never heard of (so nothing new there). It was a 2000 Paullerenc du Vic Bhil (?) and it was deliciously crisp and almost sweet-and-sour. As the other eGs arrived, the bottle seemed to empty very quickly, and we switched to a red. I don't know what it was, but it was light and easy to drink, and very petrolly. So into the restaurant, where we were greeted by our server for the evening, a young lady whose contribution to our enjoyment of the evening was significant. Usual menu and wine list discussion, wine taking precedence of course On my last two visits to St John I have had pea pods and smoke sprats as a starter; so to continue the practice of choosing the sort of dish you would never think of ordering in a restaurant, I selected Radishes and Butter. It's interesting that I've asked Fergus in his Q&A to express a view on these "buy them and serve them" dishes on his menu, but this dish spoke for itself. The radishes wer terrific - crisp and moist inside, hardly peppery at all, all texture and very seubtle flavour. The "butter" was amazing. More like an aioli vinaigrette it was smooth and sharp, and just perfect with the radishes. At about £4, this was a steal. My main course was roast pigeon with artichoke (?) which was excellent. Simple, plain roast pigeon, very gamy and perfectly cooked. Simon M was choosing the wine, and although what we had was pleasant, it wasn't the ideal accompaniment for game. I managed to drink it just to show willing My dessert was rhubarb and custard. Well I thought it was, but it turned out to be rhubatb and cream. And here we go again. I mean, stewed rhubarb is just stewed rhubarb, isn't it ? But this stewed rhubarb was fantastic. Not overcooked, beautiful pink colour, acid and sweet, and not served in a glutinous sweet juice as it sometimes is. The cream was a definite mistake. After all, who eats cream with rhubarb ? It should definitely have been custard, and I was tempted to offer to go cook some myself. Must send a letter to Fergus about this There was much dessert wine flowing at the later stages, but I dutifully avoided that because I value my driving licence too highly. Maybe that's also why I'm the first to post this morning The bill came to £65 a head all in, which included (I guess) six bottles of wine among the six of us. Excellent value, I think. St John has become for me what Gramercy Tavern or Babbo represents for me in New York. The place where I will never be disappointed, and one where every visit makes me look forward to the next.

Why thank you, Bapi, for a great review I remember the first time I saw Ullswater. We drove from the north, and just before Pooley Bridge there is a short stretch of road which gives you a bird's eye view of the length of the lake. It was April, and there was a major storm brewing. The sky was a glowering mass of black cloud, while the lake was still lit by sunlight, and the effect was very Turneresque. Then quite suddenly, the storm broke and we were treated to a display of natural pyrotechnics like nothing I have ever seen. Horizontal rain it was, and majestic it was too Bapi, can you give me some idea of the choices on the menu ? How many starters/mains were there ? The whole experience sounds terrific, and I'm definitely thinking about a May visit. Thanks again for a great write-up.

So it's me, Simon, Robin, Akiko, Tony and Vanessa. 7pm at the bar it is, and we'll wait till 7.30 or so to eat. If anyone else wants to come, just turn up and we'll book a bigger table. St John tables are cunningly designed to slide together to accommodate larger numbers When I arrive I will check that they have an extra suckling pig in stock for Tony, and its mother for Simon and Robin. I hope smoked sprats are in season. I'm looking forward to this --- it should be fun.

OK, 7pm Monday. Anyone else ? ... and oh LOL, punster extraordinaire ... hacking ... Internet site ... very good, very funny. Obviously an accident

I wish the tone of this thread would become less confrontational and defensive. Anyone remember the original question? There are two types of eGullet thread in this respect, Jason. Type A always gets confrontational and defensive, Type B doesn't. Type A quickly forgets the original question, Type B doesn't. The laws of physics (and others) dictate that a Type A cannot transmutate into a Type B, although the reverse process can occur in a heartbeat. This has become a Type A thread, and you enter at your peril. If you have not yet completed the Advanced Certificate in Type A Survival, you may be well advised to spend a little time in the many excellent Type B threads to be found at eGullet, and especially in the UK Forum, The Symposium, the Italy Forum, and other places populated by a significantly different group of contributors. ...and the Adam Balic Bio Thread is a must for a little relaxation and light relief Welcome to eGullet, Jason

What with this thread rolling to the top of the board, and Fergus's Q&A starting to bubble, I'm beginning to get a touch of the JD's (St Johns Dance). I need to go there, even if the chicken necks are off. Maybe Monday night would be good ....

I just can't wipe away the tears fast enough.

Several months ago, there was a traditionally intense discussion at eGullet about the Pea Pod starter on your menu. There were claims that a restaurant shouldn't simply buy stuff at the greengrocer and put it on a plate, and of course many calculations of the cost/charge ratio of pea pods I actually ate the dish a few weeks later, and thoroughly enjoyed it ! On my last visit a few weeks ago, I had Smoked Sprats as a starter, and again thoroughly enjoyed them, as did one of my companions. Now I perceive the added value that you deliver to be in your selection of the best ingredients, your choice of the dishes you make available to balance your menu, and of course the ambience that you provide as part of the dining experience. I'd be interested to hear if you have a different justification, and also the general rationale behind St John offering such dishes.

I was introduced to St John by eGullet and have been a committed fan ever since my first visit. But I find it difficult to describe the cuisine to new people. I'm not crazy about the "nose to tail" soubriquet (sorry about that, Fergus) because although I obviously see that within the menu, I think St John offers so much more. So how do you define your food ?

Oh ferd, please do report back in huge detail I'm going to Venice/Garda/Verona in June, and I'll need some help too

I hope you didn't think I was suggesting otherwise "The Toby Test" isn't meant to be in any sense sarcastic, it's my compliment to you.

I can't agree with that last statement, Suvir. Comparisons are almost never odious, they are pretty much what we spend most of our time at eGullet doing Sure, the person doing the comparing may be logically or factually incorrect, and the results of the comparison may leave you in disagreement, but why would that be classified as odious ? I personally think we place too many demands on people here to "prove it" when they say something we disagree with, and which we think they may not be "qualified" to say. I am not an expert on Indian food, but when I said I thought the food at Diwan was excellent, nobody complained that as a non-expert I wasn't qualified to say that. Two people here seem to have said that they enjoy the food at Tabla more than the food at Diwan. Well, I prefer the food at Babbo to the food at Diwan, and I prefer the food at Diwan to the food at Blue Hill. And why not ? It's all to do with what I find delicious (The Toby Test) and what my general subjective preferences are. The two people on this thread who prefer Tabla probably just have a preference for European food over Indian. Why should we not allow them that preference ? They are not wrong in that preference, they are by defintion right. They prefer what they prefer, and they are entitled to their preference. Eat and let eat, that's my motto

Tell him to bring some of those chicken necks for us to taste.

Hey Timo, you just needed to sprinkle a few poppy seeds on the Aloo Paratha, mayme put some raisins in with the potato, and you'd have had it all there in one go. Aloo Parataschen. See ? It's easy

Now there's a sentiment that appeals to me We all enjoy the analysis, but the first and last thing that really matters about any restaurant is what Toby just said. I'm not entirely sure, though, that this is the point of this thread. In fact, it definitely didn't start out with that point. Just read the title again, and it's clear that the discussion was first of all about Indian food, nothing else. The introduction of Tabla (in either of its forms) was a shift away from the original intention. Nothing wrong with that, but I think some people are fighting against that shift Probably there are six different questions now being addressed at the same time. Is Tabla a better restaurant than Diwan ? Is Tabla a better Indian restaurant than Diwan ? Is Tabla an Indian restaurant at all ? ... and then the same three again substituting TBB for Tabla I don't find any of those questions objectionable, or impossible to discuss, although I will maintain consistency by stating that the use of the word "better" will prohibit any conclusions being reached But in terms of any comparison, I'll fall back on The Toby Test. And by that test, it's pretty clear that some people find Tabla more enjoyable than Diwan, and some people find the opposite. I think that's what we call "personal preference" and I'm in favor of that

Prof, surely you're not suggesting that people everywhere like the same flavors, are you ? Even within a single culinary culture, there seem to be huge variations in what individual people like.

I cannot help laughing at the "SUB ZERO FREEZER CO. OUTSTANDING WINE SERVICE AWARD". My mind just refuses to stop boggling

Because the food tastes better ?

I'm in. And what about also popping over to that other place for a meal at that other place, neither of which may we mention just at the moment thank you.

Now there's a dangerous combination. Alcohol, envy and "interesting" thoughts GR@RHR is known to me only by reputation, and all I hear says it merits its Michelin status. However, far more significantly, everything I have ever heard about Michelin suggests that their assessment process is beyond reproach. Not beyond disagreement, because what they're assessing is too broad to be universally accepted. But to suggest they would improve a grading for the reason suggested is quite out of line with Michelin's reputation. On the other hand, a "highly regarded chef", ex-employee of GR, maybe with an axe to grind and possibly envious of GR's achievement ... well that's not beyond the stretch of credibility

He did, but I lost it.

That is at the very least an arguable point. I suspect there is more concession than critique in suggesting that European meat was not in need of a "cover up". Wishful thinking, I suspect, to support a position OK, here comes the gut of the debate. Is this hypothesis really supportable ? How can it be that a spice "brings out" a hidden flavour in another ingredient ? A spice flavour might interact with an ingredient flavour to make a brand new flavour; I can see that. But it seems to me coy to suggest that the new flavour comes primarily from the ingredient, as though to say that is somehow more worthy than admitting you're actually using spice to cover the flavour of an ingredient, or to provide a major flavour in the overall dish. I have never heard it suggested that spices are "flavour enhancers" like MSG. My instinct is that all a spice can do is to add it's own flavour to a dish. Indeed that's why chefs use any particular spice, is it not ? When I have lamb roasted with rosemary, I can taste rosemary and I can taste lamb which is different from plain lamb, it is rosemary-flavoured lamb. If I have rice with saffron, I can taste saffron-flavoured rice. If I have a sauce made with spices, all I can taste are the spices; and I have to admit that my palate wouldn't often allow me to separately identify three different spices in a sauce. It seems to me that this is how spiced dishes are supposed to taste. So my answer is that I don't accept the premise that the main event is the "true flavour" of a base ingredient. Plain roast lamb is cooked to taste like lamb. Lamb roasted with rosemary is cooked to taste of rosemary in addition to lamb. And so on. Spices change the overall flavour, or combination of flavours, of a dish; they are intended to do so; it is right that they should do so. Spices become as much a part of the "main event" as the food they're cooked with.

I have only eaten at Diwan once, at the eGullet banquet. I described it then as excellent, and almost as good as the New Tayyab in London, which is (at present) the highest accolade I could give an Indian restaurant. Now I'll allow for the possibility that the meal I had at Diwan was exceptional, both in terms of the care taken and the dishes selected by Hemant Mathur. After all, they had only recently opened, and Suvir was integrally involved in the arrangements, so of course they were trying really hard. But the sheer quality of ingredients, recipes, preparation and serving suggested to me that the place had fundamental class. No matter how hard they were trying, if the basic talent wasn't there, they would still have screwed up. Of course I'm not for an instant suggesting that Simon is "wrong" in judging his experience ordinary. He is far more of an expert than I in Indian food. But I suspect that for some reason Simon didn't experience the best that Diwan has to offer. Maybe he chose some ordinary dishes, maybe Hemant was out when Simon ate there (I recall Suvir suggesting that the back-up chefs aren't great). For myself, after just one experience, Diwan is on my "will go" list for my next trip to NYC.

I'm interested as to why you would ask for that comparison, Robert. Are you suggesting that the best Italian restaurants in the world are to be found in Italy ? Or maybe that Italian restaurants are "authentic" and you consider this an important component in the assessment of an "ethnic" restaurant ?

Oh no, please don't do that. Some of those Luger waiters are big guys, I mean BIG guys So now you see how easily unsubstantiated rumors gain credence. Mogsob gives us a party throw-away line, and suddenly everyone thinks it's true. I've been to Luger's only three times, on a couple of those occasions people I was with ordered medium or well-done steaks, and they were delighted with what they got. On every occasion, the service was great --- idiosyncratic, friendly, helpful. What I hear on this site is mostly praise for Luger's from people who go often, and I think those people would know if there was a problem of arrogance by the staff. So until someone tells me they actually encountered this attitude, I'll continue to believe Luger's is among the best steak houses in the USA, not just for the quality of their steaks, but also for the overall dining experience.