doronin
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Posts posted by doronin
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If McDuff could produce that marvelous bread with relatively high gluten flour, and Jack with low gluten flour, then the holey-ness doesn't really depend on protein percentage.
Here comes the gold question: what determines the dough to rise with finer grained crumb, or with open crumb like that?
What breaks the pattern of high loaf with finer grained crumb?
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The baguette demo here http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=73591 uses very fast mixing that causes a oxidation that (to cut a very, very long complicated story short) makes most of the gliadin and glutenin bond - effectively making softer flour stronger. There are other chemical interactions at work in Jack's recipe that effect gluten development too.
The arising guess is that aforementioned 9% flour would not work that well without very fast mixing, how correct is it?
Jack also mentioned there that 9% flour made better texture and actually larger holes then 11%, because weaker gluten allowed cells to merge.
Here I see another hopefully seeming contradiction: we need strong gluten to keep gases inside the loaf, but we need weak gluten to allow cells to merge. Classics say: weak gluten usually ends up with no rise, leave alone open crumb. There must be another factor that makes all the difference in case of low gluten: good rise with merged cells, or just no rise. And I'm not talking about dry dough...
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Guys, the question I was trying to ask was more about flour gluten content, and then the required kneading depending on that gluten content.
Some say: we need "bread" flour to get a decent bread. Jackal's method uses 9% protein flour, and get very nice baguettes.
My concern is how these two fact can live together? It seem to mean that protein content is not necessarily important for bread making? It sound ridiculous even to myself, but how otherwise can I explain the above?
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I feel somewhat confused on the importance of gluten for artisan bread (I'm interested of that "large-holes" kind of bread).
Classic approach is to have a flour with 11-13% of gluten, and knead the dough thoroughly until full gluten development.
Another approach (see Baguette demo, etc.) is to use actually low gluten flour (9%), mix (as opposite to knead) the dough, and do 1-2 stretch-n-turns.
Both methods are pretty much mutually exclusive, though different people manage to produce good bread with both of them.
So, where's the truth lays - do we need enough well developed gluten to have that chewy irregular structure artisan bread?
How on Earth a great bread can possibly be produced by either method?
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What can be used instead of starch or white flour as a thickener for sauces for people that have troubles with high GI foods?
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I think the really answer is its time to start your sourdough adventure...
Oh, I need a little more courage to start making my own starter...
You can try mixing the flour and the water component of the dough and leave overnight before mixing with the starter. For some flours this gives more grain taste.I tried, and frankly, I can't say I noticed any change in taste, I guess because whole wheat has it's own natural taste strong enough to suppress that subtle difference.
intheberkshires, thanks, but this recipe seem to have 27oz white flour with just 15oz of wholemeal... Well, nothing wrong with that, but there are thousands interesting recipes of bread made with such a proportion.
I'm curious about doing editable things from 100% whole wheat flour.
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That new (for me) "no time" approach for whole meal breads is by far fastest I ever used to make any bread:
- 5 min mix starter, and leave it for a while
- mix dough, knead for 10 minutes, shape
- proof for 1.25 hour
- bake
This is convenient, and it works. But I'm a little concerned with the next stage: won't it be just a bread machine? It's even more convenient, though the joy will most likely go...
So, my question - is anything more sophisticated can be made out of whole meal flour? I don't mean adding tons of eggs and milk, but rather extracting more flavor from the flour by playing with timing and may be subtle additions.
Any ideas?
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Even though the eGullet article was a foundation in education, one pressing element still remains... how many people are actually sharpening to particular angle? for example a 15/20 degree angle? Or is it simply sharpening to get an edge alone?
Well, Apex's instructional video offers an easy way to find the angle the edge is currently sharped to, and then to decide whether you want to maintain it, or change. I prefer 17-18 degrees, but if a knife has a different angle, I usually stay with it.
RE: steel - many knife dedicated forums recommend to avoid diamond steels for many reasons, one is that in blades with hardness 59-60 diamonds tend to chip and stuck in the edge. Steel steels are usually too soft for Japanese knives, so ceramic ones remain the only option, also one has to check their grit - you don't want steel to sharpen (read damage) your blade too much, but rather just to straighten the edge.
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Almost all my knives are from Seki-Cut (now it's http://www.japanesechefsknife.com), so they tend to stay sharp for long.
Nevetheless, even they had to be sharpened once in a while, and I really didn't want to ruin the edge of the expensive knives by improper sharpening.
Thus I've got Edge Pro Apex, and their ceramic steel... and I never had a problem since then.
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Recently I noticed the new Montignac's portal. Well, it's very good indeed, with very updated data, etc.
I'm just wondering... it contains explanation for all the principles of the Montignac Method, as well as enormously detailed Q&A - doesn't it make his books somewhat obsolete?
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Did you cut the water to 75% hydration? (300g instead of 340g?).
Well, I did this time, but it didn't go well. Perhaps absorption capabilities of local flours are enormous, or it's something seasonal... Shortly, at 75% the dough was rather good to make pasta, so I added little more water. The final dough looked nice, but on touch was kinda… rubbery, or like heavy dense clay. Shortly, not soft and stretchy at all.
So, it almost didn't rise, I guess the expanding force of the gases produced wasn't enough. I left it in the fridge overnight, in hope. At the oven, where gases at first are produced much more intensively, it gave some ovenspring, but overall remained rather compressed.
My conclusion is that with local flours, here and now, 85% - 90% is where to start from…
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For a great book on the issue, check out The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book which focuses on whole grain loaves. I used to play with it and it helped guide transitioning from all-white recipes to those with part or all whole-grain.
Please allow me to disagree. I've got this book something like a year ago, and tried to apply their experience onto my goals numerous times... I've got the impression that their idea for bread leans towards industrial mass market approach, kinda whole grain Wonderbread: even crumb, lots of additives, etc.
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Thanks Ben.
"What kind of noodles" - this is what I'd like to ask, what kinds of noodles are typically used for that?
Do you know if that subtle smoky flavor is a result of just a high heat treatment, or it is oyster sauce? I just don't see any other factors would contribute to that...
As for Chinese cooking lesson - I'd be happy to take it, but there are no many Chinese people here in Israel, so it is quite a problem to find something genuine.
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Hi,
I have already asked this question on a general foods forum, and was redirected to here.
I'm new to Chinese cooking, and I'm looking for instructions on how to prepare Chinese fried noodles. I've seen few recipes of chow mein, but it seems I'm looking for something else… or may be just less common variety of the dish.
In Canadian Chinese restaurants, when ordering some "that-style-meat-in-some-sauce", I could usually ask for "fried noodles" (it was always on the menu) as a kind of a side dish, and was served with pretty much the same thing – somewhat chewy fried noodles, with nothing but spring onions on top. There was no any sauce on top either, though the noodles were coated (fried in it, I guess) in some dark sauce based on soy, sesame oil, and something else. It always had lovely smoky touch, which I couldn't reproduce.
Does anyone recognize what kind of dish is it, and may advise me with recipe?
I apologize for my ignorance on the subject
Thanks,
Dmitry.
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It's called chow mein in some parts of the world, but I believe chow mein in the US is something else.
For what it's worth, I know exactly what you mean!
Si
Good!
Now, do you know how to prepare such a thing?
As it doesn't seem to be intended as an independent entrée, it must be one of the simplest recipes in Chinese cuisine...
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Wow, this is awesome... Curious how did you get that reddish color without adding sugar or such?..
I'm going to try to cut hydration and overmix somewhat this weekend...
I feel I missed something... Yet recently the favorite method was extremelly short mix, where gluten was clearly underdeveloped... Or this is what food processor manages to achieve in 20-30 sec?For big holes and an artisanal texture you must develop the gluten much more then normal, either by a long hydration (for example mix the flour and the water but not the yeast 24 hours beforehand, and keep in the fridge, or intensively mix past the normal point.I'm really amazed by how your loaf looks in a banneton after 3.5 hours. It's so smooth...
How did you shape the loaf - just as white bread, i.e. trying to create tension on the outer surface, or simply folded the dough and put it into the banneton?
How did you avoid raw flour pickup during shaping, considering the dough was very sticky and you needed lots of flour?
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Thanks guys. I just realized I'd better posted it on Chinese forum... I just didn't know of it.
What you're looking for is not the US "chow mein," but rather the Chinese "fried noodles" a/k/a "chow mien," right? Like, a bed of skinny noodles (mien) that have been fried until crispy, and with a pile of stir-fried meat/vegetable in a very light sauce on top?I think I'm talking not about chow mien at all, though I may be mistaken. In every chinese restaurant in Ottawa, ON I've been, when ordering some "that-style-meat-in-some-souce", I could ask for "fried noodles" (it was always on the menu) as a kind of a side dish, and was served with pretty much the same thing - fried noodles, no pork, or chicken, or vegetables, except spring onions. No sauce on top, though the noodles were coated in something based on soy and sesame oil.
It isn't chew mien, is it?
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Too bad I don't remember the name of the dish...
I'm not talking of cho mein - stir fry noodles with vegetables in a lot of starchy souce, but rather about dry, that is, not floating in the souce at all, relativey thin noodles, little crispy, and coated by distinctive dark sauce.
They usually served separately, as is, just with some spring onions on it.
Any ideas?
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But what are suggesting to do about "underdeveloped"? Get back to bulk fermentation?..
Don't health food stores sell Vitamin C powder or tablets? You only need a pinch, but its OK to omit.Of course they do, but I used to read the labels, they all contain tons of additives, from food colorants to artificial flavourings. Do you think it's it all right to add such stuff to the dough?
You are trying to over knead in conventional terms, so long as the dough doesn't get too hot. It will get wetter as it proves. Mine comes off the mixer almost as a cream, and then magically transforms as you shape it.Now that's intriguing at least. This is a first time I'm encouraged to overknead... Why and how does it work? I used to think that overkneading leads to degradation of gluten network...
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I have no experience in Chinese cuisine (cooking, not eating), but I'm trying to get more familiar with it...
Fried noodles, how do I do it?
First, what kind of noodles would be the correct choice for that?
Second, the sauce. I eat fried noodles in good Chinese restaurants from time to time, and remember that lovely subtle smoky taste - what is it?
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Looks to me like a wet dough that has been under developed but overproved.
The flat top and rather coarse crumb with thick webs between the cells are characteristic. Did you cut the water to 75% hydration? (300g instead of 340g?).
How are you mixing? Mix on high speed until the dough "picks up" and the continue mixing until it releases again. Some Vitaman C (ascorbic acid) - about 0.5% will help as well.
Then cut the prove time. You'll need to experiment a bit
Hmm... "under developed but overproved" - how can it be so it we just dropped the bulk fermentation, leaving only proof?
Actually, when I did the bulk fermentation stage, which was supposed to help the dough to become developed, the webs were just as thick, but holes were smaller. Any idea?The hydration, I couldn't drop it this time - the flour I bought last time was extremely thirsty for water: strangely, at 75% it was very very dry. So I started to add water while mixing, until I saw that little dough stays on the bottom of the mixer bowl (i.e. not all stays on the hook). I'll try to cut water next time.
Mixing - KitchenAid standing mixer, second speed, 5-6 minutes. It will break if I go higher.
"Mix on high speed until the dough "picks up" and the continue mixing until it releases again" - you mean food processor mixing, not mixer, right? Otherwise, when it releases, won't the dough be overkneaded by then?
Ascorbic acid - it's not that simple here in Israel. It's considered to be a chemical stuff, so pharmacies don't generally carry it in pure form. And the price is unbelievable.
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Here, the promised pictures. Comments are appreciated.
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Can we have some pictures?
I doubt if changing the flour will have much effect.
Are you slashing the loaf?
Another point is that I note you are covering loaves with clingfilm. This will inhibit the slight drying and skining needed to form a good crust. Try covering with a cloth, such as an oven cloth, and then putting the whole thing in a large loose plastic bag like a bin liner to prove.
This time I've got only pictures of already baked bread, I hope to upload them tonight.
Clingfilm is another thing that confuses me from my early days
From one perspective if I let skin dry somewhat, it'll be tough and may inhibit ovenspring. This is actually why we steam the oven.
From another standpoint, if it's sweats for too long under the clingfilm, excessive humidity may weaken the skin. Where's the truth lays?
I do not slash as at the point of would-be slashing the skin already resembles a sieve.
Why I think about flour change? The one I use has just 12.5% protein, and this is a whole wheat - pretty low IMHO. Also, it's very coarsely ground, not as granular as semolina, but the particles are large enough to be felt on touch. Initially I didn't believe it's possible to do any bread from it, so I consider what I've done as a "success"
. My understanding is that dough extensibility must also depend on it, as large porticles can penetrate gluten as good as bran... -
From my own experience relatively high-hydration wholewheat doughs are very prone to overmixing, as well as overproving. In overmixed batter goods you often see a 'tunneling' effect similar to what you describe.
Have another go and let us know what happens.
Time to report the results...
This entire story doesn't stop to amaze me... When quite a while ago I started with all that whole meal goodness, I was busy trying to apply complicate classic recipes to whole wheat… well, mainly due to lack of books dedicated to whole grain specifics. I was spending pretty much whole day trying to imitate those lo-ong proof times of French bread, the results, of course, were pretty much miserable. The progress now brought me to a point where it takes just about 2 hours from initial mix to finished bread (starter is extra), and it tastes much better then the attempts from the past…
Now, back to business.
So I dropped the bulk fermentation – mixed, shaped right away, proved, and baked. I have to admit the rise was much livelier, I had better ovenspring, crust was good, and I generally liked the crumb, although there is much yet to work on. My conclusion – this is the way to go. Thank you guys!
However, the story with the skin didn't change much, there were lots of little "breaks" and holes in what was supposed to be the skin, and it caused me to still believe some of potential volume was lost due to some escaped gases. I examined the surface thoroughly; it indeed looked as the skin was torn due to inability to stretch itself enough to match the "new" volume of rising loaf. Gotta try another, more "glutenious" brand of flour I guess…
Sushi knives
in Kitchen Consumer
Posted
There is a whole world of knives beyond Global...
Here's the link where you can found tens of yanagi-ba and takobiki, often for lesser price.