JohnL

Third, I always find it interesting that some people will rail about wine markups and not food markups. really, ya think that bottle of Beaujolais is a bad deal check out the markups on a dish of simple pasta!--and guess how much those snazzy Air Jordan's you are wearing have been marked up! Restaurants are complex operations with all sorts of overhead. In a vital and open market with competition and variety of choices I rarely find many places where my experience is tainted because I feel I am being gouged. In fact, I am happy that any place where I enjoy dining, makes a healthy profit--I want them to thrive. ← The key difference in your argument is that I think most wine people feel ripped off having to pay several times (not sure about the 300% markup either) the price for the same bottle they have in their cellars. I know I do. It's really not a fair analogy to compare the price of sneakers with wine marked up in a restaurant. I mean everyone is certainly entitled to a profit, and I agree with you in that absent one, they shut down. It becomes a question of what is a reasonable profit in the minds of the patrons. I really have no idea what a pair of Air Jordans cost (although I suspect it's a fraction of what they sell for) but I do know know what most wine on wine lists retail for. That's the difference. Further, if you don't like the price of Air Jordan's keep shopping. Ditto with usurious wine list prices, keep shopping or don't patronize. ← You hit it on the head! This is about choice. Restaurateurs having a choice to offer a beverage service via a licensing system that is not so cumbersome or expensive and having access to wines and liquor at fair market prices. Consumers free to choose a BYO or a full service restaurant and free to patronize the places they are comfortable with. The system of alcoholic beverage distribution and sales and taxation in PA works against a healthy atmosphere of competition and choice. detrimental to business and detrimental to consumers. I have been around long enough that I have seen no one who does not work for the state make any coherent argument for this system. That said--I always find these debates about profit margins etc amusing. We often seem to miss the forrest for the trees. Restaurants provide an experience. In most of the world that experience includes food and beverage served in an atmosphere conducive to enjoying that food and beverage. Restaurants are also in business to make a profit. It is very fair to ask why people are willing to focus on on aspect of dining--wine pricing and not other areas where goods and services are "marked up." Where folks like to immerse themselves in hypothetical situations costing out every step of wine production etc to arrive at a "fair markup"--they seem reluctant to do the same for that plate of simple pasta or their clothing items etc. I suspect that much of this is due to the fact that wine list prices are often obvious and there is a history of restaurants charging a hefty markup for wine. Especially lower end wines that are readily available in local shops--everybody knows the cost of say a Kendal Jackson whatever. Restaurants often price items they offer at what their market will bear--that is restaurants with high overhead operating in "mid town" with a clientel of business accounts and wealthy patrons and travelers will often be --is everyone ready?---Expensive! Big name in demand wines at high prices. So yes the food and wine at per Se are costly--the patrons are not there for a "bargain" in dining. You pay for the overall experience Per Se offers. So too a local place may have a decent French country red that sells for six bucks in a wine shop on their list for twenty five dollars--twenty five is the low end for wine in most restaurants a place can't make much money if the low end of their list is ten dollars--if you are concerned about that markup on a twenty dollar bottle then spend more--say forty or fifty and most places offer more choices and lower markups there. The trend is for restaurants to offer interesting wines and to price them so that people want to order a bottle of wine and thus have a better experience. and yes--make money. if a waitperson or sommelier helps you choose and discover a new wine you never heard of--and have no idea what it sells for in a wine shop--or helps you select a wine that goes perfectly with your food--is the restaurant's profit really that big a deal? BYO's are fine--they can be fun. However, let's be honest, the people bringing rare or really interesting fine wines to them are a relatively small group--most people are schlepping a Kendall Jackson or Beringer wine or their favorite Beaujolais and then congratulating themselves on how much money they saved (that's perfectly fine). they are not benefitting from a restaurant that offers a range of interesting wines at different price points that are selected by a professional to complement that restaurants food. They can't have an aperitif or a cocktail or an after dinner drink--or maybe just a glass of wine. They have to hope for the best in paring the wine they bring with the food. They have less choice! Most people want choices when they dine out--people on business or travelers with money looking for a complete dining experience simply do not want to be bothered with buying their own wine in a strange city--restaurants that can not offer beverage service have no chance to serve this lucrative market. And let's be honest here--most people --the vast majority of people who dine out have no idea what wine costs at wholesale or retail or what the markup is--they want some wine with dinner or they don't and if the restaurant offers a selection of wines at different price points then chances are that person will order some wine. Even wine geeks when confronted with an interesting list will not be able to provide retail prices for most of the wines. So , in most cases--if all I can spend on a bottle of wine is twenty bucks then I can probably get a decent wine that has been marked up a lot or I can have something else to drink with dinner or I can go to a restaurant that serves wines by the glass or I can go to a place that serves wine but also allows one to BYO or I can go to a strict BYO only place or... I have choices! That is what it is all about.

"Chairman Newman" sounds Kinda like Chairman Mao!

where are you getting your 300% markup from? most retail establishments mark up about 30%. many wines are marked up less than that at high volume retailers. as for restaurants two and one half times wholesale is often considered a fair mark up.--I believe. Lower price wines are often marked up more than higher priced wines. so if one is interested in bargains--often the hundred dollar bottle is a better deal than the house wine. It is all relative. I agree with your view on corkage.

There has been wide ranging discussion here about wine markups and BYO policy in general as well as the thread you recently started focusing on the Philadelphia BYOB situation. First, to get facts straight--I am not sure where you get a markup of 300%. Wine at retail is usually marked up three times--producer to importer, importer/ wholesaler and then at retail. Second, the situation in Philadelphia is somewhat unique. Pricing of all alcohol is controled by the state government. There is a lack of any real market competition at retail. There are also some tax situations (Pennsylvanians are paying an 18% tax/markup via something called a "flood tax." (Katie Loeb has really helped me understand all this arcane and confusing stuff--a great resource). In short, it is difficult and expensive for restaurants to offer an alcoholic beverage service. Hence the proliferation of BYO restaurants. It would be hard to make a case that the situation in Pennsylvania is the result of a healthy and competitive market. Third, I always find it interesting that some people will rail about wine markups and not food markups. really, ya think that bottle of Beaujolais is a bad deal check out the markups on a dish of simple pasta!--and guess how much those snazzy Air Jordan's you are wearing have been marked up! Restaurants are complex operations with all sorts of overhead. In a vital and open market with competition and variety of choices I rarely find many places where my experience is tainted because I feel I am being gouged. In fact, I am happy that any place where I enjoy dining, makes a healthy profit--I want them to thrive. Fourth, I believe that historically, restaurants in general have marked wine up pretty steeply. As more people are interested in and ordering wine restaurant wine lists are becoming much more reasonable and interesting! If the wine list makes sense and the restaurant cares about wine then more people will order wine.--this is the current trend in most places. Fifth, BYO's are fine--they do serve a nice niche. However, they are not the way of the world nor the future of the restaurant business. They have some benefits but they also have drawbacks. On the restaurant side and for consumers. In fact if one lists the benefits of BYO's vs the drawbacks using real world scenarios-- that list will be very lopsided, indeed.

I think that in order to get one's arms around a fairly daunting world of tea one should most definitely get some guidance--a good book--I recommended Jane Pettigrew's book elsewhere in this thread--the Upton catatlog is good and there are other good resources out there. Then I would start broad--get small quantities of different kinds of teas--a black tea a green tea, etc and learn the differences. Then hone in on say different kinds of green teas etc. or blacks--Assam vs Darjeeling for eg. What is probably not the best idea is to start by trying to discern more nuanced attributes ie tasting a number of different darjeelings say. I also would take a lot of the brewing advice--with a grain of salt. I would learn and try the various methods see if any stand out for you--and always remember--it is important to brew each type of tea in a manner that ensures the best attributes of that tea will shine. That is amount of tea leaves, brewing times and water temperature are important. Beyond this--there is often a lot of ceremony involved --some more fun than practical. I usually have my darjeeling brewed in a single cup infuser using the fine tap water we have here in New York City. Simple --easy--and it works for me! the main idea is have fun!

I just ordered some tea from them--I have been a customer for a couple of years now. There are a lot of sources of good teas out there --I find Upton to be among the very best. I order on line--very easy.

And hence the argument for the city to establish guidelines for this method and enforce them. As a consumer i like the assurance that the people preparing my food and and the environment in which my food is prepared meets at least minimal standards which are monitored. My fear would be some poorly trained chef or cook without proper equipment was behind my dish--regardless of the technique. I don;t think this has anything to do with Bouley or any particular chef it is how the city health dept views sou vide cooking in terms of consumer safety and what guidelines they develop for its use in restaurants. My understanding is that like cold smoking--one needs to be knowledgeable and careful in its application.

Are you folks reading the article or even the excerpt from RR? Note the use of terms like "lower quality claret" and "wine glutted" market. It is specifically noted that the crisis affects "all but the highest quality apellation wines." The glut is a fact of life--more wine is being made than is being consumed. something has to give. That something is--lower quality wines. These are basic table wines that are mostly consumed in the country of origin. They don't sell well on the export market because they don't compete--they are just not anything special even for everyday drinking. believe me if these wines were wanted--by anyone--then those folks would pay for them they would sell and no one would be rioting. The fact is, they can't sell for a decent price at home or anywhere and so the French government (the people really ) have been supporting these wines financially. These are not national treasures of French winemaking--so if no one wants them why are they made? No the farmers want their subsidies to continue so they blame the big bad supermarkets, Michele Rolland or Robert Parker or the Mondavi's or globalization or the EU or the ...well you get the picture--anybody but themselves you know those--poor--noble--people of the earth who grow these grapes for the pure love of it who ask only for a meager existence in return--please! I would posit that the French drunk driving laws are impacting these wine sales more than supermarket prices. I have actually discussed this some folks in the french wine trade. it is the French themselves who are drinking less of their own wine! So worry not--in fact--go to a local wine shop and really look--I have said this many times but-right now--glut or no glut--riots or no riots--you will see more different wines from more countries and varietals than ever before--at all price levels! Why even France--who would have thought an entire wine shop could be devoted to mostly Loire whites and reds even ten years ago! so what's the real problem?

You must mean those dirty winemakers that over the centuries made European wines the quality standard for fine wine - a standard that still stands by the way. Try to find a great New World producer that does not use as their standard the European classics. What, there are no agricultural subsidies in the good old USA? You mean blending like the classic, Lafite "Hermitaged"? If you think top producers in Burgundy are blending African wines into their blends you are totally misinformed. To make such charges without any proof is clearly irresponsible and actually quite ignorant of the situation in Burgundy today. This is a statement you can make about any wine region in the world. Look at all those crappy vines on the floor of the Napa Valley (Opus for example). Where are most of California wines produced? The Central Valley or Napa? Mediocre land planted with mediocre vines is the standard, not the exception of the wine world. The AOC is a bad marketing system because it is not a marketing system. It is simply a way for growers to enforce a standard for their brand name. Before you damn Europe's wine farmers, a more thoughtful approach and an understanding of history should be a minimum requirement. Most of Europe's wine farmers are small producers who are there because their countries history and culture put them there. They work hard for little money and are not out to cheat anyone. We should remember these are real people trying to make an honest living doing what their local history led them to - they deserve respect. ← Craig I am not damning anybody. In fact this issue is not about "all farmers" it is in fact about a relative few. I was responding to the farmers who are referenced in the RR post. You seem to have extrapolated this group into all farmers. So we are talking about one group of farmers who make a certain kind of wine. First--the wine glut is a result of too much wine too few consumers. The wines that the EU is ordering being "dumped" that is turned into industrial alcohol etc are for the most part made by large co-ops these are simple everyday table wines. If these wines were of the quality that could be sold on the export market then one would assume the EU would be exporting them. Read the excerpt from RR--we are not talking the "highest quality apellation wines." As for poor quality wines being made in other countries--well we are talking about the French situation--I believe that is where the rioting is taking place and what this thread is about. I will gladly acknowledge that every wine making country makes poor wine if that helps you. Your cheap shot at Opus aside--really! However, it is Europe we are talking about here and Europe where there is an acute problem. As for my noting that wines have been "adulterated" (the Pommard reference) this is an historical fact. I used this to tweak the hypocrisy of the rioting folks etc.--it was a bit tongue in cheek. just as RR used her salt of the earth references. However you should read up on your history--the number of wine scandals in Europe are too numerous to list here. we had a major one re" Austrian wines (see the anti freeze scandal of 1985). the French are still embarrassed about a freighter found loaded with Italian juice "discovered" docked at one of their ports recently. And yes--cheap Algerian wine was often blended into Burgundy. Let me quote Jancis Robinson in the Oxford Companion:"adulteration and fraud have dogged the wine trade throughout history...the long human chain stretching from grower to consumer affords many opportunities for illegal practices." If you think that there is no hanky panky in Burgundy(or anywhere) today then I will leave you in your blissful state. Again--sorry you didn't get it--my point is that when anyone attempts to depict themselves and their industry as pure and righteous is due for a bit of tweaking! I know what the AOC is and what its intent and purpose is--what I am saying is the system has not been friendly to consumers --you know the folks who buy stuff--the marketing thing. To ignore the inhibitions that the AOC system places on the marketing process is to be..well..ignorant. Also the confusion it promotes among potential buyers. As for subsidies--the piece referenced, I believe, was priceless when the writer noted that after all the "noble" reasons for the unrest what was a key factor was more timely delivery of subsidies. It is a fact that many of these large co-ops have been producing a lot of mediocre wine that can not be sold-the EU themselves admit that these subsidies are a huge problem and are trying to eliminate them. I also am aware of subsidies for all sorts of products all over the world but again we are talking about France and Europe here. I would be happy to talk of all the virtues of the European farmers and winemakers but that is not the topic at hand. The fact is--Europe has a severe problem --they themselves admit this--the problem is pretty clearly identified--just look at the wines they are ordering be turned into industrial alcohol. look at where the grapes are that the EU is paying farmers to rip up. Let's not descend into some half baked treacle about the noble farmer or the poor little virtuous wine maker-- back to Mondovino land if you will. I am quick to recognize fine wines and cite the growers and makers. I know all about "European" wine and food tradition"---that isn't what this is about. Blaming the current woes on supermarkets is a red herring--in fact--the French drunk driving laws are probably more to blame than Oddbins pricing structure. In fact, it is clear to me that some people just do not know what wines/grapes those French farmers are rioting over. They are really hard to defend. so--I could have been more clear here you would not have felt the need to present a knee jerk (understandable) response in defense of something I was never attacking. anyway cheer by the way I recommend Jancis Robinson and especially Andrew Barr (Wine Snobbery) two Europeans who will get you up to snuff on those naughty winemakers!

Just curious, why is that? ← Basically, in the story the complaints from professionals quoted or noted were about the inconvenience and unfairness of the way the city handled the issue not about the need for training and education and regulation. In fact, seems that the piece made the point that most practitioners of this technique were highly trained in the proper methodology involved. That is a sure indication that in the hands of one with no or poor training there could be health problems. Bouley was quoted. Had he, or any professional, been noted as having a problem with the ultimate safety goals of the health department I would have had to think about this further.

Maybe this will help sort things out. First-- Trickery. I suppose that parents trying to "trick" child into eating something new etc is between the parents and their children. In extreme cases --I guess parents can risk losing their credibility and traumatize the kid. Not so ggod. Classic French cuisine is in large part a matter of a kind of trickery-- they managed to make me actually enjoy veal kidneys (what a sauce!). As for foods that produce real allergic symptoms and foods that people just don't like and everything in between: people know what they like and don't like and what foods bother them. Hosts of dinner parties etc try to prepare what they think will be good to eat--it is up to them if they want to open a potential pandora's box by asking potential guests for input. Otherwise--people should just be gracious and leave anything that they don't want to eat--for any reason at all on their plate and eat what they are ok with. If you don't eat red meat then leave it and eat the sides and the salad etc. Or just take a small bite whatever you are comfortable with. Hosts should be gracious and never ask why a guest didn't eat something. as for people who have concerns about ingredients that will make them sick--they should discreetly ask the host: "did you use any peanut products in you great looking dishes?" and note they have an allergy. fair enough?

It is pretty clear in the times coverage that there is some confusion and the City is trying to sort it out. Food preparation in NYC is already regulated and monitored--there are guidelines. It is also clear that sous vide as a food preparation technique has potential problems if not practiced safely--like any technique. Seems the city is attempting to review sou vide as it fits or doesn't fit into current guidelines. They may be a bit heavy handed here but they are --I believe--acting on the side of safety first. If David Bouley is ok overall with the need for regulation with these actions then I have a hard time not accepting them as well.

One has to approach this with some reason and common sense. Contrary to popular belief most corporations are not out to kill their customers. (that doesn't make a lot of sense does it?). Yes there are unscrupulous people out there and we have laws and law enforcement to help protect us. No one can make a product and sell it totally unchecked and unfettered. We have regulatory bodies--there's a good argument that we have too much regulation of some industries but that's another thread. (there are also areas where we could use more regulation) Really, some state's attorney's are as scary as the corporations they often go after--so in this case--it is a good thing that the Feds are exercising their role in the scheme of checks and balances. I would say that for all the faults (and there are many) our food supply is reasonably safe. I would also say by and large we are pretty well informed given the amount of media we have. In the end--I think we will all be ok.

Trader Joe's is part of a huge German supermarket chain/corporation: "Aldi" owned by two German brothers Karl and Theo Albrecht. These guys are multi billionaires (among the richest people in the world). Trader Joe's is a $2.6 billion operation with 234 stores in the US. 80% of the merchandise they sell is private label. They "squeeze" every dime to maintain a low cost position. IMOP--they have an interesting and somewhat bizarre marketing strategy --basically they need to do two things--convince people that their private label items have an aura of quality (they in reality may or may not have) vs other private label offerings--store brands etc and that their prices are low. To be honest--they are a big business out to get our dollars. They are obviously squeezing suppliers to keep their prices low. Just like Wal Mart, Costco, Whole Foods et al-- really any large business. As I have said here--I believe their products are ok---is the Trader Giotto olive oil better than any other store brand? I do not know--I haven't done a taste test--is it cheaper? I really don't know that either--I just don't care much about a few cents here and there. I can say their olive oil is fine--I would use it. If you buy a lot of generic store brand items (or are interested) and are pinching pennies--I would say give Joe's a try! The great thing about New York is we have sooo many choices! (Joe's is another).

Unfortunately, this is not an easy issue. It is about the parents not the kids. We live in a self indulgent world. As I see it, good (acceptable) behavior in a restaurant is simple-- One sits in one's seat (unless going to the bathroom) One eats food only prepared by the restaurant the only sounds acceptable are conversation at a level no louder than that of the general restaurant sound level. Pretty simple-- this goes for adults and non adults. There are exceptions--and these apply only to restaurants that cater to children. If adults want to dine out with their kids then these places are where they need to go. (unless their children can follow the rules above). No exceptions. Unfortunately, too many parents today simply do not care. about their kids about other people. A restaurant can't have it both ways--if anyone of any age does not follow the above guidelines then they need to be asked to leave. or the restaurant can provide high chairs, coloring books and jungle gyms and a clown motif for decor.

I guess I'm not as interested in the store and whether it's special...more in whether it will catch on. Not-so-special things are a hit here all the time, no matter how picky we like to consider ourselves! ETA: I also think that the fact that you have to compare different pieces of TJ's inventory to things available in a variety of stores sort of backs up the point I was trying to make above - while they may not be bringing anything new or special to the scene in terms of product, there may not be another store where those products are all available under one roof. This, from what I can tell from the other posts on this thread, is part of their appeal. ← It's the other way round! Other stores carry pretty much what Joe's does only more of it under one roof. that is my point re:"special." Again--Joe's has a quirky limited selection--their strategy is to buy in bulk and force producers prices down a la Wal Mart. They sell a smaller selection of what they (and many) consider reasonably good quality items at reasonably low prices. There is a trade off. Thus my point is--if you compare them to anyone compare them to large chains who offer store brand items and bulk stuff. It is clear that Joe's strong points are not --fresh anything--save for some limited dairy offerings. (I do not mean their stuff is stale--on the contrary most of what they offer is in good condition). Meat and produce--they don't even compete well with our chain supermarkets for the most part. at any level. I believe that is part of the trade off--fresh produce and meat and poultry as well as fresh prepared (on premise) items are costly to buy and maintain. Their balliwick seems to be easy to handle stuff with a long shelf life. Stuff in packages and bulk things like nuts etc. and frozen items. So give them their due but let's not make them out to be something they are not. They are owned by two German billionaire supermarket entrepreneurs who are good at marketing. They have a schtick that one either buys or doesn't. They have created an aura much as Whole Foods has. it is about marketing--they do a good job of taking some good/decent quality products and making them seem better or more than they really are. I do think they can be successful here--but I would argue that some of that success will be dependent upon whether or not people buy into the schtick. With all the choices people here in Manhattan have--it is doubtful that without drinking the coolaid--people will travel on a subway to buy the things they do best at any cost. So--I think they will do ok with the considerable neighborhood traffic.

It depends upon what you are talking about. Comparisons need to be apples to apples literally and figuratively! TJ's inventory relies heavily on TJ's branded stuff. If you are looking for a large bottle of "generic" olive oil that is cheap and of good quality then TJ's is fine. A box of granola --TJ's is good too. Nuts? Dried fruits? In other words compare TJ's here to other store brands (say Wholefoods 360 products or Pathmark brand etc). Produce? TJ's selection (at least at the stores I have been to) is closer in variety to what is offered at the better Korean markets all over Manhattan. quality wise?--maybe better than that at many supermarkets (Stop and Shop IMOP is as good or better). Some of TJ's stuff may be better than some of WF's offerings but WF kills Joe in variety. Meat and fish--TJ is prepackaged and or frozen. So compare their stuff to other pre packaged and frozen items. Even local supermarkets are offering fresh fish and meat (some fresher than others) so ok maybe a TJ's frozen salmon steak is better quality than a poor quality or less than optimally fresh offering at a supermarket. Let's not even be so unfair as to compare Joe's meat and fish to WF let alone Citarella. The only items at TJ's that are branded (not house brands) and could be considered "gourmet" are things like Niman Ranch pre packaged meats and Aidel's sausages--I really believe many people saw thes items on Joe's shelves and immediately thought--ooooh "gourmet!"--hence the gourmet market label for Joe. These items are easily found at many of our supermarkets. So WF--has 360 olive oil Joe has Trader Giotto's--ok we can compare em for price and quality--I have no idea how that plays out! but WF also has the wonderful McEvoy Ranch oil and the Laudemmia and a ton of other great brands--selection! Choice--two things NYer's love. Yes we love cheap too. No matter how you slice it--Trader Joe's is IMOP just not that special. If you love generic stuff at low prices--they are the place for you!

The city is even more competitive. not only are there large food courts and market/supermarkets but there are myriad specialty food retailers. This discussion--I believe--has to do with population density and food shopping habits. My point is TJ's has a reputation or almost cultish following developed on the West Coast. It won't necessarily translate here. I also believe it is out of proportion with what TJ's really is. TJ's is competing here in suburbs and in the city (soon). As for pricing--let's see if TJ's can offer lower prices that competitors here--where overhead is high. Also prices vary wildly--there is no one who offers low prices across the board anywhere around here so it is impossible to get into meaningful price comparisons--remember the caviar wars the parmesan wars. also--people will trade off/balance price for convenience so this may be a somewhat over rated factor. Quality--I have no major complaint with TJ's here--for the most part--however I seriously doubt that they offer higher quality than any number of markets in the city or the suburbs. Most all of TJ's stuff is prepackaged, frozen etc. (maybe they will offer fresh in Manhattan--we'll see). Here in the city and the suburbs there is an abundance of fresh meats and sea food--everyone offers these. let's remember that the traditional supermarkets here--Dag etc are improving their acts--it is amazing how quickly the local Dag Responded to the opening of the TW center Whole Foods. As I see it--TJ's offers good quality but more on a par with the better generic/store brands etc. For eg--if I want a generic package of english muffins or pre packaged generic white bread etc TJ's has em and they are good. Wholefoods has a pretty broad selection of fresh bread from the Sullivan St Bakery and I would say their prepackaged stuff is as good as what TJ's has. Yes the products at TJ's are fresher but fresher than what--the packaged stuff at the A and P? That's what I mean-it is all relative. Selection--no contest--TJ's is almost quirky to a fault here. People often stop in and buy stuff they weren't intending to because beyond a relatively few basic items the inventory is inconsistent. It is sorta like Loehman's maybe they got what you are looking for maybe not....but everything is cheap! The interesting thing here is TJ's is not the place to shop when you have a list of ingredients for your dinner party that night--they are more a place to stop in and buy milk or eggs a bag of pistachios and see what interesting packaged or frozen stuff they got. Again the way we shop Loehmans etc. for clothing. So--I would say that TJ's is what it is. If you are used to buying pre packaged meat or frozen salmon and bags of basic nuts and dried fruits and store brand bakery items in plastic bags and canned goods and generic olive oil or prepackaged cheeses--TJ's does a good job. Maybe they are even the best at this. I would guess they excel when put up against traditional supermarkets (by the way these are changing so the gap is closing fast). I would also say that one should be careful about comparing say a TJ's prepackaged wedge of Blue cheese to the similar blue cheese available at Wholefoods or Balducci's at a higher price--the more appropriate comparison is to the Blue cheese at say the A and P. produce--the Stop and Shop in Danbury has a better selection and the quality is as good as that found at the competing TJ's. TJ's is in no way a "gourmet" market. Citarella and Fairway are. Also-- the service thing. Yes-I find the staff at TJ's to be nice folks. But when you sell prepackaged stuff other than a nice demeanor what is required? The butchers and fish mongers behind the counters at Citarella are nice too and they perform a service. I know of no market that won't refund your money or won't listen to your suggestions. So one can offer criticisms of every market--no one is perfect. I just do not see where TJ's is anything special. If one is looking for novelty or quirkiness they got it in spades. But let's not elevate Joe's to something they aren't. In the NY area we have long had a number of good supermarkets, and specialty shops and yes, gourmet shops available to us. TJ's --I believe--is an answer to the traditional supermarket and that's is where the comparison is more valid. Here TJ's does well/better with quality and prices--they still lose most every time with range of selections etc. So maybe they will do well here in the city--they seem to be doing ok in the burbs--but NYers can be considered spoiled when it comes to food options (and jaded). It will be interesting.

I guess I find Coulee from good vintages and aged well so beguiling an experience that maybe I would prefer to drink it alone--just savoring it. this is one wine that has the potential to draw one's attention away from the lobster! as with most wines--Coulee is not always on point (nor Joly) the wines have been a bit erratic in quality over the years--recently mostly on form though. it is nice to take a risk once in a while--as you point out the payoff could be really wonderful!

I am still trying to figure out what is so special about Trader Joe's. After reading this thread I am beginning to develop a theory! First--I have shopped at two locations here on the East Coast. I have nothing really negative to say about them but I also do not see where TJ's stands out. I am not very experienced with markets on the west Coast but after reading a few posts here it appears that the quality there (West) vs what we have here is very different. In comparing TJ's to the locals in both the city and the suburbs: Stop and Shop, Stew Leonard's, Balducci's (both the city and the old Hayday markets in the suburbs), several of the better A and P's (Westchester and Putnam), Wholefoods to name a few. I find that TJ's falls short in the depth of offerings and the consistency--there simply is not much that TJ's offers that I can not find at these other outlets and a lot that they have that TJ's does not. As for pricing--TJ's is good but I do not see a great difference here either. overall quality--ranges like prices--but again--I do not see TJ's having any significant advantages. In fact--much of what TJ's offers is identical--most dairy products--to what I can get at most/all these places. The packaged meats --at TJ's--small selection and ok quality--Nieman products are available all over the place here and also have lost a bit of their luster. the fish at TJ's are all frozen--they do have good shrimp at a good price--but again so do other markets. And most other markets here carry fresh fish. The prepared stuff--again ok--but not even close to what Balducci's (Hayday) are offering or even Stew Leonard's. bulk nuts and dried fruits--Stew Leonard is loaded with this stuff--in a wider selection too. I am coming to the conclusion that TJ's found a niche out west (that may not exist here) and developed a "cult" following. They are fine in a neighborhood with not a lot of choice in the immediate area (competition). IMOP--TJ's is more reminiscent of a good Korean corner market than a major food retailer here. They should do ok here --if they get their locations down-- but all the hype and the raves are IMOP unjustified.

This is actually a good thing. Evidently, this cooking method needs to be executed properly to eliminate the chance for bacterial problems. The rise in popularity of this method has probably caught the city and perhaps the industry by suprise. The real potential problems are probably not with the current practitioners who seem to be, for the most part, top rank chef's with solid training, but rather as the method continues to grow in popularity and less qualified chefs and cooks in restaurants use it. It seems the city is being a bit heavy handed here--they usually are in these matters. David Bouley is quoted as saying the new city requirements are "a good thing." That's good enough for me.

Yes. I believe it does. Allergy and "sensitivity" very different things. If a person becomes physically ill exhibiting symptoms it is one thing. If a particular food item or ingredient doesn't "agree" with someone that's quite different. (I'm sure someone really qualified here-maybe DocSconz could step in and help sort this out) As a host or cook --I really do not care--for the most part--If you are bothered by something to any degree then don't eat it. However--someone who has a serious food allergy--shell fish, peanuts etc wherein they can become dangerously ill--they should ask about ingredients. As a host/cook I would do whatever I reasonably could to accommodate them. What is annoying are people who believe that they should be accommodated in all circumstances. This I believe is a malady of the baby boom generation (I am a card carrying member of this generation) who are IMOP a bit too self indulgent and self centered. These traits are what allow the charlatans to prosper! Why it is enough to give me the vapors!!!!

I know of no market around here (NYC) that won't do that. Again--I see nothing that TJ's offers that is not found in other places. Quality? What I see is ok--again most all the TJ's stuff is good but no better than that of many store brands. Somehow the quirky atmosphere and inconsistent inventory plays a role in creating an image that TJ's is "special"--they really IMOP are not.

I have shopped at two "Joe's" in the tri-state area Danbury CT and Eastchester (on RT 22)NY. While I do not have much negative to say, I can't really rave about em either. Somehow I do not get the hype. TJ's doesn't seem to provide anything I can't find at even local chain supermarkets like Stop and Shop, let alone specialty markets. The quality of their TJ's own stuff seems to be good but no better than any number of store brands available in the area. Even the list of items the Times singles out under "Joe's draws" are nothing special or all that unique.--these are the ten best selling items? Stop and Shop, Stew Leonard's, Wholefoods, all carry a much wider more consistent inventory. I wouldn't not shop TJ's (I will continue to stop in now and then) but IMOP the TJ's hype is unwarranted and hard to explain.

"Vigorous" (see subsidies below) also the folks who made wine that suffered from dirty cellars and barrels for years. "Most independent..." Ya mean the folks who love those government subsidies? "Virtuous" The people with a history of blending in cheap African wine to "round out" their Pommards etc...? The fact is too much mediocre land is planted with mediocre vines and mediocre wine is the result--I am being generous-- a lot of that wine is crap and would have a hard time competing with any decent everyday wine from all over the globe. I think the EU is attempting to fix a bad situation. The AOC system is a real problem in marketing even very good quality wines. (maybe they should allow large breasted women on their wine labels!--just kidding). The system is a perfect example of a well intentioned government regulating something rather than the marketplace. The article is really on to something when they note the criminal behavior is due in part to a call for speeding up government assistance. Just "going around" the AOC system is only a small solution. The truth is the Italians are making better quality wines and are marketing them with more savvy. The Europeans are faced with declining consumption based in no small part to the drinking laws (I really do not want to hear any more lectures about America and our puritanism) in the face of way too much production. The best wines from every region are not in much trouble and are indeed thriving. This dust up is over basic table wines --many produced by large co-ops--that are heavily subsidized. Much of this was consumed locally and is of the quality that can not compete on the export market. I hope the EU can get their arms around this. The wine world is evolving rapidly--both producers and consumers. All I know is-- this evolution is to the benefit of all. There are more wines on local shelves from more places in the world at all price levels than ever before!