Suzanne F

So, Lesley, we disagree. The issue is not the quantity you or I learned to make, but the techniques or skills. Whether one cooks 500 gallons of stock or 5, the needed skill set is the same. One bones out a chicken the same way whether one is making ten ballotines for a hotel buffet or a company dinner for hubby and his boss. If one went to LCB -- or any for-profit school, for that matter -- and did not get the training one expected, I cannot say that it was totally the fault of the school. It's not as though one is getting a free ride and can (literally) afford to take whatever they give. When I was looking for a school to attend, I look at four of them in NYC. I observed classes, I got copies of the curricula, I spoke to faculty members and students. I did not make my decision merely on the reputation or sales pitch of the school. I had a very clear idea of what I needed to learn, and chose the school at which I would have the opportunity to learn it. One, in fact, that has only professional programs. I had some classmates with a very different attitude; some of them were there because Mommy or Daddy or the State was paying to keep them off the streets for a while, or to make them employable. But I really don't care what happened to them; I got what I wanted out of the program I took, and that's all that matters to me. All I'm saying, really, is that if one has done full research on the program before choosing it, there is no reason why one should feel short-changed. There is no "tracking" at this level; we choose of our own free will and our ability to pay. What one's fellow students think and do is immaterial to one's own experience and learning. To get back to the book: if what malachi says about the protagonist is correct, then she has NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER to bitch. If SHE chose a program that attracted non-professionals, of course she got less professional training; just having LCB on her certificate says nothing about WHAT SHE LEARNED regardless of what she was taught. Nor does it qualify her for anything. Believe me, I've worked with plenty of XXX graduates who could not cook their way out of a papillote. But who had attitude to spare simply because they had a piece of paper that had their name and XXX on it. To which I say, B F D

Yeah, there's a huge dose of reality. That excerpt shows that it's not only male graduates of big-name culinary schools who have pokers up their . . . whatevers. And that "girls" can have lousy attitude, too. (That said, I will probably read it -- from the library -- when it comes out. Not gonna spend my $$ on that stuff.) Sandra: right on. People all have their own reasons for going to culinary school; none is "more valid" than any other, and none means that the school is good or bad.

Book recommendation on this topic: On the Town in New York, by Michael and Ariane Batterberry. First published in 1973, with a 25th anniversary (slightly updated) edition brought out in 1999 by Routledge. An excellent history of eating out and drinking from 1776 on. Put this one together with Patric Kuh's The Last Days of Haute Cuisine and you've got almost all you might need to know about fine dining (and not-so-fine) in NYC.

From whom? Oh, him. The guy-who-wasn't-FG, sprawled on the couch when we arrived, having had a typical NYC food day of a great lunch, a personal tour by a noted restaurateur (who proffered more food, which of course he had to eat, just to be polite), and a walk through various food-packed neighborhoods in 90+ degree heat. The guy who looks way to young to be so knowledgeable. The guy who was a very gracious companion and charming conversationalist. Yes, him.

Actually, no. I was very careful last night at Lissome's. Not that the temptation wasn't there . . . No, this is just a hot-button issue for me.

First, I will state that I have read only the initial post/question; none of the responses. So maybe someone said this already: Your children will be considered weird if they know how to eat properly AT ALL. If they know how to eat with a fork and knife, and drink from a real glass, not just holding a sandwich and a sucking through a straw. They will be considered weird if they eat all sorts of foods, not just whatever is advertised on the Saturday morning cartoons. They will be considered weird if they show any evidence of discipline, especially self-discipline. Of course, they would not be considered weird by any of the children I know, because they too have been brought up properly. But I fear that they, and yours, are the tiniest minority of children in this country. Oh dear, why am I so bitter this morning?

HWOE and I conked out about an hour ago. The party was still going on. In fact, Andy and Elyse had just come back from a beer run. Lissome was a fabulous host, providing scrumptious octopus ceviche and tzatziki and a kind of tapenade au pistou and asparagus to dip in vinaigrette. And some terrific cold somen noodles. Somebody brought a variety of appetizing from Zabar's (I think) and there were many, many bottles of bubbly: cava, prosecco, Long Island, California, New Mexico; and other wines and beers and grapefruit-flavored Pellegrino. Great time! Oops, I almost forgot: Someone (Ellen?) brought PEEPS! Special 4th of July ones, and Xmas ones, but all absolutely fresh and soft. Hey Andy, thanks for the opportunity to get together.

Some time ago there was a debate as to which was older: McSorley's or Bridge Cafe, which is in a pretty old building (built in 1794, according to Zagat). But whether businesses in either location have served continuously, I do not know. The next oldest place on the Zagat list, Bayard's (1851) wouldn't count, because whatever eating places have been in that building (India House) have not been open to the public. Next on the Z list is Old Homestead (1868). Now that's a good possibility. Is it only a tourist trap? I don't think so; it's still my first choice for a slab of prime rib. The decor, the last time I was there, was so charmingly 1950s -- although they may have redone the place recently? Traditional menu or trendy? Some of each, although aren't slabs of meat timeless? The tower of garlic breadsticks, however, is neither timeless nor trendy; THAT's touristy. Gage and Tollner (1879) has not operated continuously. But if we're now just talking about OLD places, that's a place that has tried to be trendy as well as traditional. The trendy stuff just doesn't cut it; the traditional (clam bellies, she-crab soup, chops) is definitely the way to go. (Delmonico's now has no relation whatsoever to the Delmonico's started in 1828 and many times transformed, other than the space it occupies. And One if by Land is in an old building [Aaron Burr's house?], but the restaurant itself is nowhere near that old.

That is what I am looking forward to!!!!!!!!! I will keep you posted as to what I will be doing Well I have made it to NYC, and my cooking accomidations suck, but I did take my first ever walk through the Greenmarket today, how awesome is that!!!!!!!!! You guys are freakin' spoiled. Good stuff abounds. True, for New York. But I have had market envy ever since I visited the Santa Monica Farmers' Market. Sigh. Ain't food grand?

I'm really curious about that now. Should work, since the fat would just float on top anyway. But would the flavor in the meat not be diluted? More info, please. Do you have a reference?

Lissome -- you edited out the time you had posted before! I'm gonna just show up at your place sometime between 6:30 and 7, with some hummus and some bubbly (and HWOE, who can be quite amusing when he's not being pedantic), and whenever the Brit arrives, he arrives. How's that?

I think the condiments eat the leftovers in my fridge, so they can grow big and strong and TAKE OVER ALL THE SPACE!!!!!!!! Except for the jar of salsa rojo, which grew its own. So now it's going to take over the garbage can. edited to remove egregious spelling error.

I found it interesting at the start of this thread that people seemed to confuse advertising with PR. What I remember from business school is that there is a huge difference, just as there is between sales and marketing. Advertising is what you pay for to get people to know that you exist. PR should get you editorial coverage. Anyone can buy an ad. It takes a good PR firm or person (internal or external) to get editorial coverage, which imparts much more information to your potential customers. Think about the NY Times ads for Lutece that have been running for months now. That's advertising. Feh. Lutece is throwing away money, as far as I'm concerned. They should instead be spending it on PR, having someone write articles informing editors and other food writers of what there is new and exciting (or retro and exciting) -- not showing us how cute the chef is. On the question of BAD publicists: a chef I worked for in several different restaurants had one (maybe he still does). I literally had to push her out of the kitchen one day, because all she was doing was telling him how important the people were he was cooking for and making him incredibly nervous. BAD publicists know nothing about how a chef works, or how he/she thinks, or how a restaurant does what it does.

As often as you like! Just as long as you follow through. If people don't mind eating off of/with disposable plates and implements, I will provide all that; no need to schlep. I will also bring out every wineglass in the place, because using real glasses is non-negotiable.

Spelling it pOrtObellO makes me think of Eccentrica Gallumbits, the triple-breasted whore of Eroticon 6. Rather comforting, in a way, don't you think? But which way would The Official Scrabble Players [sic] Dictionary have it, if it included it at all?

The Velvet Falernum site has the same recipe under both names. What I want to know is: does Mel Torme's estate get a cut (along with all those gd roasting chestnuts)?

That was Joe Cocker????

Eric Malson's story of "X" reminds me of a birthday dinner (mine) some years ago at Madras Woodland, an Indian vegetarian place that was acceptable to observant Jews (not me, by any stretch of the imagination). We were seated next to a couple who must have been on an early, but deeply exploratory, date. We came to think of them as the floor show. The guy was all right, although when he mentioned wanting to live in Borough Park once he married, the woman loudly proclaimed that she could never live there, everyone knows your business (his response was, "Yes, but the schools are so good.") She described in vivid detail some of the more bizarre and sociopathic members of her family; and finished her recitation with: "So. What's your psychopathology?"

It's got to be Spanish? I got some tasty Colombian-style chorizo (fresh, not cured; herbs and lots of vinegar in the mix) at a butcher shop on Smith Street in Brooklyn (not far from all the trendy new restaurants). Can't remember the name, unfortunately, but it was a combination of Italian and Hispanic, next door to a non-trendy restaurant the served a delicious pernil.

Subway on 60th is a great place! I used to hang out there with my sous chef from Match (he told everybody I was his mother). Not much selection in beers, though. Other possibilities: Zum Schneider, Avenue C and 7th, for German beers & food (I've not been, but some of the others have, right?); Liquor Store Bar (aka Rat Bar) West Broadway and White (up the street from Montrachet; maybe we could do takeout ). If we actually get some good weather, both have outdoors. Puffy's Tavern, across the street from Chanterelle (ditto on the takeout??) Wherever, I'll try to be in. My deadline is Thursday.

Back in January, at Bayard's (in the Wall Street area, NYC), we had foie wrapped in pancetta wrapped in kataifa. The crust was golden and the foie still solid. Not quite an everyday use, but sublime.

Now you got me all teary-eyed. (Well, that plus your adorable puppy-dog avatar ). That's what cooking for people is all about.

And then there's J-G V's 66.

It's my understanding -- possibly apocryphal -- that the progenitor of all such places, original "Fresco Tortilla" on Lexington between 23rd and 24th, was started by a Chinese couple in the early 1990s, when they were delivered a tortilla-making machine instead of the dumpling maker they had ordered. So they decided to go with it. When I worked nearby, I used to love their quesadilla with chorizo: tasty, greasy, junky. Mmmmmmmmmm. Then again, "Chino-Latino" cuisine was long a mainstay in Chelsea, and is still available on the Upper West Side. A lot of it was Cuban-Chinese, from the Chinese workers brought to Cuba to build railroads (just like here).

Or: It was the best of thymes, it was the worst of thymes. (I've already proclaimed my shamelessness.)