Jaymes

You are wrong on this one point for sure. Although of course I know that the U.S. was isolationist from a commercial, business, and political standpoint back in that era (much of which continues today), your conclusions as to how that may or may not have impacted upon what Americans ate, and their attitude toward foreign cuisine, seem to me to be negative and condescending toward the citizens of the U.S. during that era. But I do not believe that you were being negative and condescending to me personally. Frankly, if anything, it was the other way around (for which I should probably apologize to you, and so I do). But as for your comments, I did not "take it personal." Not at all. And as for the rest of your argument, there are many, many things I do not know. I do not know if you are smarter than everyone else here. I do not know if you are richer than everyone else here. But I DO know that you appear to have more time on your hands than everyone else here. And that you never give up. And that arguing with you is futile. And so I'm done for 2003. And I also know that I greatly envy you your evening with Stellabella. Greatly envy you. Tell her I said "Hola."

Acht-ooly, had one last night. At a great little roadside joint in Blanco, Texas - the Sunset Restaurant & Bar - on the way back from Mexico. Yum. Ah hah! I think that we have decided what round steak wants to be when it grows up! BTW Jaymes...did you get that bean recipe? Would they go well with Chicken fried steak? Got the bean recipe. Actually, several versions. Went into the restaurant (La Fogata) and ate the beans and my companion and I flirted shamelessly with the waiter and we thought we got the recipe, and we did get "a recipe." But then, the next morning, went for breakfast at the little hotel where we were staying and we were telling the waiter our story and he asked what recipe we got and we told him and he smiled and said that he had previously worked at that restaurant and that they ALWAYS were asked for the recipe and the waiters had been told to leave out at least one or two things. So, we asked HIM what the recipe was and he said, "Oh, I cannot tell joo, because it is the secret of my kitchen." To which we pointed out that he no longer worked there so it no longer WAS "su cocina" and so he could tell us, of course. And he gave us a recipe that was identical to the other one, but WITH a couple more ingredients. By then, all the waiters and most of the customers were chiming in with their recipe for charro beans. And the owner of the hotel restaurant was all miffed because we had asked for the La Fogata beans instead of the hotel restaurant's beans. So we decided we'll just have to experiment with all of the suggestions and come up with our own approximation as to how La Fogata (the original place) makes them. At which time, I'll be happy to share. And, no, charro beans are really not good with CFS. With CFS what you want is mashed potatoes so that you can put that cream gravy all over the CFS and the mashed potatoes. Although some people do like French fries and gravy with their CFS.

Acht-ooly, had one last night. At a great little roadside joint in Blanco, Texas - the Sunset Restaurant & Bar - on the way back from Mexico. Yum.

Yeah - like I'd admit it here. I'm still recovering from the "canned sauerkraut" flap.

No, Steve. Please read your post again and pay attention. What I said was that in my opinion, your tone regarding the REASONS WHY THOSE FOOD CUSTOMS EXISTED are "negative and condescending." For example, let's say for the sake of making this point that we all agree that a thing (anything) EXISTS, okay? Well, that is only ONE ASPECT of the argument. Then, we get to the REASONS WHY it exists. And, in this case, it is not the FACT OF EXISTANCE; but rather, the REASONS FOR THE FACT OF EXISTANCE, where I believe your tone is negative and condescending. And, where I disagree with you. (Oh man is this tedious.) Okay - Let's say that we are discussing something ridiculous. Let's say that we all agree it is ridiculous. In my case, because the following actually happened to me, I'll use it as an example: Way up high in the rice terraces in a third-world country, I was traveling on a bus. The bus had no sides, just benches that went all across. On this bus, in addition to me, were various members of the local populace, as well as their animals - goats, chickens, pigs, etc. Many of the local women wore no shirts, but rather, just lengths of cloth wrapped around their waists as skirts. In their ears they hung heavy golden loops that had stretched their lobes down to their shoulders. Many of the men were in loin cloths, although some also had on shirts. Many had had various tatoos on their faces and other parts of their bodies and, when they smiled, they revealed teeth that had been filed to sharp points. This bus threaded its way along a very narrow dirt and gravel road that wound up along the sides of mountains. To the left of us was high jungle forest, and to the right, the "road" dropped sharply. Suddenly, the bus stopped and every single person on it except for my companion and I got off. Ahead of us the road narrowed frighteningly, and you could clearly see where there had been a landslide, and the rocks and gravel had plumeted down the mountainside. It did not appear to my companion and me that the resulting space was wide enough for the bus. Chattering excitedly, all of the passengers began gathering small bits of brush and twigs and arranging them into small piles on the road directly in front of the bus. My companion and I asked what was going on. We were told that the previous week a bus like ours had gone off of the road in that exact same spot and many people had been killed. So now, the passengers were lighting fires in order to scare away the evil spirits so that the bus could safely pass. All the fires were lighted, and there were ceremonial words spoken and much waving about of arms, etc. Then, they stomped out the fires (most with bare feet) and every single one of them got back on the bus, smiling and laughing and confident. My friend and I looked at each other and said, "We think we'll just walk across, if you don't mind, and you can stop and pick us up on the other side, if that's okay." The bus driver pointed out to us how foolish we were being because, "it's okay now - the evil spirits are all gone and we'll be able to cross the narrow spot just fine." We said that well, yes, we knew that, and we could see that and we were sure he was correct, but if it was all the same to him, stupid us would just walk over anyway. So, we did. We walked over, easily of course, and stood there watching wide-eyed with apprehension as the bus drove gingerly across, wheels extending a bit over the edge of the road, sending rocks and gravel tumbling down the mountain. Upon returning down that same road about a week later, we repeated the process - they got out - lighted fires - got back on and RODE over - again we walked and they stopped and picked us up. Now, here's the part that pertains to what you are saying: I believe (and think that most educated people would agree) that what they did was "ridiculous" as you put it. But, do you think I should look down at them? In fact, they were doing the best they could with what they knew to be valid and correct and true. AND, who am I to laugh? As they would be happy to point out, they made it across, didn't they? So, Steve, in my view the reasons were many and varied for whatever American "isolationism" existed at that time. (One of them, frankly, is our sheer size.) But, Steve, you can either take the most negative, condescending, unpleasant view as to THE REASONS WHY THAT EXISTED TO THE EXTENT IT DID. Or, you can assume that most of us were doing the best we could with what we knew to be valid and correct and true at the time. I believe that you choose to make the most negative and condescending value judgments possible regarding the REASONS WHY. And this is it for me. (I'm repeating to myself: New Year's Resolution - Do not argue with Plotnicki, do not argue with Plotnicki, do not argue with Plotnicki.)

It's hard for Steve to avoid this when he's apologizing for the rest of us. Actually, from my experience, it's ALWAYS "hard for Steve to avoid this."

Golly, here I am again, interacting with you, Steve. We're behaving almost like an old married couple today... Now, isn't that a frightening thought.. Can't speak for anyone else, but I do agree with you (and the curator) that in those days in many ways the U.S. was "isolationist." But you have a negative and condescending tone to your reasons and explanations as to why that was. And it is THOSE with which I heartily disagree.

Project - Wow -- I mean, regarding your somewhat unusual "style." Are you beaming that down from the Mother Ship?

What I said that "has to do with learning to eat...the other foods that Julia Child taught us about" is that she "demystified French cuisine" for us; that she translated the foreign words, simplified the techniques, informed us as to where to purchase the ingredients, what to subsitute if they were not available, etc. Seems to me that all has EVERYTHING "to do with what [Julia] has to do with it." In other words, Steve, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU regarding her "place of importance." Totally, Steve. And actually, I believe I've said that same thing regarding Julia Child three times now. Wow. It turns out that it's just as difficult to agree with you as it is to disagree with you. Which is damn difficult indeed.

There is something else at play here that, if you were not around in those days, you might not understand. Much of this (then) "new" processed, frozen, etc., stuff that we are now decrying was, in the 40's & 50's considered to be "modern." The days of the "ice box" (with real ice, remember?) had passed. Refrigeration and freezers and modern canning and processing techniques had just been discovered. And anyone who didn't rush right out and take advantage of this new technology was considered to be hopelessly old-fashioned. That also came greatly to play in raising one's infant. My mother told me that she had wanted to breast-feed all of her children, but the mood of the day was that the newly-devised "formulas" were much better for infants. And when she shared with her parents and contemporaries her desire to breastfeed, they openly scoffed and jeered at her "close-mindedness" and refusal to join the "modern world." So much of what we now see as current examples of our "ignorance" was in those days just the opposite: an effort to embrace the new and modern, and not to be left behind with our "old" fresh meat and silly garden vegetables when a new and modern and, therefore, better world awaited us if only we'd bravely venture forth unto it.

Yep, and I've got my original copy. Along with Joy of Cooking, and the "red checkerboard" cookbook.

Oh Geeze, Steve - This is really a diabolical plot to make me totally eschew my New Year's resolutions, isn't it? Next thing, I'll be finishing off this entire box of chocolates. You don't believe anything I say, despite whatever empirical evidence I might offer you, so I know this is a fool's endeavor and you'd much rather think the absolute worst of poor, ignorant, isolationist, frightened, Dinty Moore- (which I don't think was even canning beef stew in those days) loving, prejudiced, simple us. And that I might just as well go out and argue with the hat rack beside my front door, but... I agree with practically everyone else's comments on this thread. In many aspects, we WERE somewhat provincial; but to me, that doesn't have the negative tone with which you want to paint us. Even though many of us had not been exposed to foreign cuisine, by FAR the vast majority of Americans of the era became interested in trying, when the opportunity arose to explore other cuisines in a manner that was as easy as Julia made it appear. If that were not so, Julia would simply not have "made it." She, and her television show, and her books, wouldn't have been so popular if the American audience had not been "READY" for her. That just seems so simple to me. If we were truly the self-satisfied ignoramuses you depict, don't you see there would never have been a market for her? Now (and please reread this paragraph before you post in response), to get to a more personal note - in 1969, I belonged to a "gourmet" club (the word was newly fashionable) in which we met every month to try to explore new and unfamiliar cuisines. I particularly remember "Caribbean night" for some reason, probably because I remember that particular dessert: Avocado Pie. I used the fondue example, JUST AS AN EXAMPLE of what I saw as the national mood, not wishing to take the time and energy to go into EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE with which I am familiar wherein people of that era, my contemporaries, were experimenting with new and unusual and "foreign" foods. I also recall that my father, along with a vast majority of the other men of the time, had been not that long back from fighting a war in Europe. They were full of stories of the foods of France and Italy in particular. In addition, many neighborhoods had grannies and grandpapas who spoke no English. I can recall on summer nights bicycling past their houses (no air-conditioning in those days and windows and doors were open) and inhaling the aromas of international cuisines of all types. At one point, our next-door neighbor's wife was Thai, and I remember even my Irish mother (not a particularly good nor adventuresome cook) asking the woman to come to our house and show my mother how to prepare fried rice. But you'd rather think the worst, so fine, go ahead. The rest of us were/are awful in every way. And you are a sophisticated, urbane, educated, intellectual seeker of the finest waging a lonely battle. My heart goes out. And now, back to those chocolates.

That's absolutely right for most "American" families that were at least several generations removed from their immigrant ancestors. What more, indeed? Everybody got fed and now wasn't it about time for Ed Sullivan?? But they knew that there were other cuisines - and that the French had the reputation for having the best (in their own minds, at least). And, just as I said, when Julia (and some others) came along and demystified French cuisine, methods, ingredients, language (and probably more important, offered easily-available substitutes for those expensive and unobtainable ingredients), the word "gourmet" entered the American psyche. And housewives and other American home cooks became less intimidated and started giving it a try.

Yes, Steve. I know. But I'm trying to help. Despite the fact that one of my New Year's resolutions is to never, ever, under any circumstances, no matter what, argue with Steve Plotnicki, I can't seem to help myself. My point (which, if you'll read the remainder of the bit about the fondue pots, you'll see) was that everyone I knew in the late 60's not only GOT a fondue pot, but was falling all over themselves trying to produce what they understood to be an "authentic Swiss fondue." Now, even if in actuality there was never any such thing as a "Swiss fondue" or, for that matter, never even any such thing as the Swiss people at all, my point was (and I'll emphasize this time so that you won't overlook it) THE AMERICANS I KNEW WERE TRYING TO LEARN NEW AND "FOREIGN" PREPARATIONS. And again - I don't have to wonder about, nor speculate, nor guess about, nor try to infer from movies, what the U.S. was like in those days. Because, I repeat, I WAS THERE.

I make lots of Asian beef dishes - pepper steak, stir frys, bulgogi, etc. I find that if the meat is completely frozen, it works better - for what I'm going for anyway.

But they sure didn't want to eat snails, much less escargot. Well - I suspect that you can select certain things from any cuisine that are particularly unappetizing to those who are not familiar with it. But it does just so happen that during that time escargot in MY experience was very popular. Many people even enjoyed it due to the "shock" factor alone. My first memory of seeing someone eat it (and this is absolutely true) was in the late 50's at that famous big steakhouse (it may be called "Big Tex") on Route 66 in Amarillo where you order this giant steak and if you can eat it all in one hour, it's free. Now this was the heart of "Bubba Land" by ANYONE'S definition. And the people at the next table were having escargot and I was absolutely fascinated at the prospect. I was about ten- or twelve-years-old at the time. Furthermore, as a young married, my closest friend of that particular era had, as her "I'm taking this to a special party" dish, escargot, served (without the shells of course) hot in a chafing dish. You picked up them little fellers with a toothpick and placed them on a cracker or toast round. So - I'm sorry - I'm just not buying this "we're so awful" stuff. I hate sweeping generalities, especially negative ones, and very VERY rarely find them to be true.

Absolutely true. I got married in 1969 and can tell you for a fact that the number one wedding gift that year was a "Fondue Set" and that everyone was all agog over trying to make the "most authentic" "Swiss Fondue." Also, I turned 25 that year and even by that age had lived all over the States - from Calif to Tex to Florida to New York, Nebraska, Kansas, et al. And didn't meet many people who were oblivious to the reputation of French cooking... Nor who were "afraid of anything foreign."

I just don't believe this to be true. I don't know how old you are, Steve, but I don't have to "guess" what "America" was like in the 50's & 60's. I lived it.

Yum. 'Breakfast Tacos.' Now there's a good idea.

A can? Really?? I hardly live in an area where sauerkraut is one of the basic food groups (neither do you, apparently), but, in a can?? I've only ever seen sauerkraut in a bottle, refrigerated. It may be available in a can, but I've never looked. That said, it's probably not that hard to do from scratch (I've done kimchee from scratch) and I'm not questioning the idea of using a prepared product; it's just the idea that it's available in a can that I find weird. Where I am currently living, you can buy sauerkraut in many ways, including canned and jarred, unrefrigerated; or fresh and refrigerated. Obviously, you can also make it yourself if you have the time and interest. I have done that as well, but can guarantee you that if I am attempting to create a somewhat quick snack-type food to be enjoyed primarily while also enjoying some sort of spectator sport, I'd not be bothering with all that slicing, and packing into crocks, weighing it down, allowing it to ferment for six weeks, packing into jars, etc. I got the "Mini Reubens" recipe some thirty years ago while living in the Philippines. There sauerkraut came primarily processed and packaged into unrefrigerated cans or jars; I do not recall ever seeing it available fresh. Allthough I should add that when I lived there (and in Hong Kong, for that matter) many people did make kimchee out of cabbage (among other things - my own personal favorite being scallions) which is, as you pointed out (in the version most familiar to Westerners anyway), a dish somewhat similar to sauerkraut. Obviously I completely agree with you: the better the ingredients, the more superior the final dish. So, if you have the time and inclination, you most certainly can ferment your own cabbage, as well as bake your own rye bread, corn your own beef, pickle your own cucumbers for your 1000 Island Dressing, stew your own tomatoes for your 1000 Island Dressing, make your own mayonnaise for your 1000 Island Dressing, prepare your own Dijon-style mustard, and, I guess, if it comes to that, even make your own artisanal Swiss cheese. Or, you could buy your prepared sauerkraut in whatever form appeals to you and is affordable and readily available. Ditto the rye bread, 1000 Island Dressing, Dijon mustard, Swiss cheese. Of all of these posts/suggestions, the only one I personally would NOT consider is your suggestion of using that cheap and (I think) unpleasant "thin-sliced and processed meat." Personally, I believe that choice would ruin the whole thing. But hey - in food as in most things - whatever works.

Actually, round steak was my Number One "Fall Back" dinner choice when raising a large family. You can brown it (the whole thing, without slicing, chopping, etc.) with your choice of seasonings and grease/fat/oil in a large skillet with a lid. Then dump your choice of sauce over (and it doesn't really matter what - whatever you're in the mood for, tomato or brown or mushroom or "ethnic" or whatever - homemade or canned), and some veggies if you like (again, whatever you're in the mood for - onions or garlic or bell peppers or chiles or tomatoes or carrots or celery) put the lid on the skillet, and let it simmer in the sauce until it's done and tender. Serve it alongside/over a starch of some kind: rice, noodles, potatoes (or you can cut them up and add them during cooking), etc. It's incredibly versatile and economic. And delicious as well.

That is really a shame. And there's a lesson there about not taking things/people for granted....

This sounds excellent! In a junk-food idiom, you could use those packages of thin-sliced processed meats, rather than 'real' deli corned beef. I like it, and will probably try it; the substitution of dijon for thousand island seems a bit odd, but it would work. Not a Reuben, but good. Actual recipe: Mini-Reuben Sandwiches Dijon mustard Thousand Island Dressing (optional) 1 loaf sliced party rye bread 1 1-lb can sauerkraut, well-drained and pressed between paper towels until dry as possible. sliced corned beef (I actually do use the good stuff - either make it myself or buy it from good deli) 3 oz Swiss cheese slices (If you can't find party rye, cut slices of regular rye into quarters) Pre-heat oven to 400º. Place bread slices in single layer on baking sheet and put in oven to partially toast. Remove and spread each with Dijon mustard. (Add a small dollop of 1000 Island Dressing, too, if you like, but don't leave out that Dijon. I've tried it without it and just believe me it is NOT AS GOOD.) Top with 1 heaping tsp sauerkraut, several small slices corned beef, one strip of swiss cheese. Put back in oven and bake until cheese melts. Serve immediately. This makes about 26 mini-Reubens, and they are very popular and easy to eat so be sure you have enough for everyone.

BPGuy - don't feel one bit bad - given the circumstances under which he was working, I suspect ANY recipe would have turned out less-than-perfect! And bully for you, P56, for soldiering on despite the "battlefield conditions." I'm sure many of us (me included) would have just thrown our hands into the air and not even attempted it!

Cheese Crisps (some people call these a "Mexican pizza") flour tortillas (2 large, 14-inch, or four smaller ones) butter 1 Cup shredded cheese (use your favorite Mexican cheese, or a good-quality mild cheddar like Longhorn) Salsa (home-made or GOOD storebought) Pre-heat oven to 350. Take pizza pan or large baking sheet and place tortillas on it a single layer (if you use the really big ones, you can do one each on a pizza pan). Butter tortillas evenly. Sprinkle with cheese and bake until cheese melts and tortillas are crispy brown. Serve at once while crisps are hot. Serve with salsa and/or sliced pickled jalapenos (canned jalapenos en escabeche).