Jaymes

...Or take a trip to B.C. Ooooh, oooooh yeah. That's the ticket. What was I thinking? And as luck would have it, my favorite "hotel" in all the world is in Ladner. Clearly that's exactly what I need to do.

I guess it's time to redirect my cravings.

I care because several people here have said "Italians are more interested in food than Americans" and they've gone on to use that theory (which they have stated as fact) to explain other things. Thus, understanding that claim is important to answering the questions we seem to be trying to answer here. If it turns out that interest in food -- as a statistical measure -- is as high or higher in the US than in Italy, yet food quality turns out to be higher in Italy, then we'll know that interest does not explain quality. That, to me, would have to alter some of the assumptions that have been made by many on this thread. I would suggest that I am in the top 0.1% of Americans when it comes to caring about food (which is something I would say about most of the readers of this site). All people like Craig, Bill, I and others can tell you is that, having spent time living and working (as opposed to touring) in Italy... it is just obvious that people over there care more about food. You and I care a lot about food and so naturally when we are spending time together in New York we often talk about food. To many (most?) "regular" New Yorkers we would seem to be unusually food-obsessed. Clearly, our interest in food is not the same as the "average American." But, in Italy I have conversations with "regular people" about food every day. These are not people who are regarded as caring about food all that much. If this is true, and if the only problem with Italian restaurants in the US is the number of bad ol' Americans that populate the US, why is it that authentic Italian restaurants are not the same as in Italy in ANY country? I believe that there is something about the authentic foods of Italy that just doesn't translate well anywhere. It seems to me that is the more interesting question, rather than just harping on the inferior tastes and complacency of Americans as the cause. Are you saying that no one -- not the Chinese, not the Japanese, not the Mexicans -- no one else cares as much about quality food as the Italians? Or that in none of these countries is there even a portion of the "sophisticated" population large enough to keep in business one quality Italian restaurant? Because that's all it would take, right? Enough people that know, understand and care about fine cuisine to keep one fine, authentic Italian restaurant open. It's difficult for me to imagine that New York doesn't have the market base to support and sustain at least one such restaurant, if indeed a dearth of knowledgeable customers is the only problem. In fact, I would think that in New York there exists enough of these intelligent, sophisticated, knowledgeable, caring, quality-demanding Italian immigrants alone to support at least one such restaurant all by themselves, if that were the only problem.

Actually, I recently had a conversation very similar to this. Except that it was in Galveston and concerned shrimp.

Sam, it is clear that you are an intelligent and thoughtful man. And I agree with almost everything you've said, except this. If you read back through this thread, it has a distinct tone that is constantly disparaging to Americans. It seems to be something that we feel a need to do, although I don't know why. Perhaps it is to apologize for what we perceive as arrogance of Americans in other areas. Perhaps it is to apologize for our wealth and abundance. Perhaps it is to apologize for what seems to be our natural and frequently annoying exuberance. But it just really pisses me off when I see it. Yes, the so-called Italian food in the US is mostly bad. Why? Is it because, as is asserted in this thread, we just prefer crap? Or are there maybe other, less insulting reasons. Like for example the fact that Italy is now and always was a peninsula with ready access to the freshest ingredients, while our relatively new country was settled by a bunch of disparate immigrants from a plethora of countries many of whom had all their worldly possessions in some wagon, trying to simply survive out on the Great Plains? I just think that any subject this convoluted and difficult and ephemeral deserves a more careful and respectful scrutiny than, "Americans alone in this world prefer crap over quality and don't understand, value or appreciate the difference."

Jaymes finally gets it. Right on the mark here. Finally? Read back through this thread. I never disputed the incontrovertible fact that Italian food in the US is a pale imitation (and even that is a kindness) to the Italian food in Italy. The only thing that I take objection to, and still do, is the incessant (and of course, so politically correct) attacking of Americans as being a people that are innately inferior in all ways culinary to all of the rest of God's creatures that populate this planet.

After considerable reflection regarding this thread, I now see the error of my ways. Because I have traveled, and lived, in many countries around the world, and because I enjoy true authentic Italian cuisine, I have frequently succumbed to that craving in places as disparate as Hong Kong, Bogota, Tokyo, London, Manila. Before this thread, I always felt stupid that, so far from Italy, I was hopeful that the food in the so-called "Italian" restaurants would be the same as the Insalata Caprese for which I longed. But, when one is on an extended visit, say some 6 months or more, one's cravings can sometime overcome one's good sense. Now, however, I understand that I should not have felt that way. Now I understand that I was quite right to hope for fabulous and authentic Italian restaurants in, say, Hong Kong. That, in fact, according to the people on this thread, the ignorance and inferior tastes and preferences of Americans are the sole reason why so many American "Italian" restaurants are so awful. And it follows, therefore, that as the number of Americans in any given country decreases, the quality of the authentic Italian food increases. So the fact that I was not served delicious and authentic Italian food in, for example, Mexico City, is undoubtedly due to the fact that my waiter rushed into the kitchen and announced that a "norteamericano" was in the place, and that it was time to dump the ketchup (that they keep hidden away for just such a purpose) into the pasta in order to please her.

I don't understand-- Do you mean by this that all these ethnicities prefer inferior food? I also think that Italy as a tourist destination probably attracts all of the above... I don't know that "different" necessarily equates with "inferior." I believe that tastes vary. I believe that the average businessperson tends to attempt to cast their nets as widely as possible. Italian food in the US isn't the only cuisine that suffers from this "dumbing down." Have you read the threads by the Brits that wonder why they can't find decent Mexican food in London?

That's right. Because in Italy, the "Italian restaurants" cater to Italians. In the States, the "Italian restaurants" must cater to Irish, Chinese, Swedes, Puerto Ricans, Brits, Indians, Argentines, Japanese, Iranians, Sudanese, Mexicans, South Africans, Australians, Russians, Egyptians. Oh. And Texans.

i just wanted to point out that not every american, and maybe even most americans, has access, within reason, to what is commonly accepted as the "best". And that's certainly true -- depending on what exactly you're talking about. The US is an enormous place. This thread specifically addresses Italian food. And I am certain that the average Italian eats much better Italian food than the average American who, quite likely, has never really eaten "Italian food" at all. However, I am not at all certain that the average Italian, or European, eats better when you consider everything that really enters into what arrives on your table. For example, I strongly doubt that the average Italian eats better BBQ brisket than I do. And I also suspect that the crawdads pulled from Italian waterways don't hold a candle to those that routinely arrive on Louisiana tables. In fact, I doubt that the Cajun or Creole food in Italy is worth choking down. And, I'd put a good Louisiana gumbo up against a cioppino anyday. And these are just two examples. The US is full of excellent (and fresh) regional foods. I don't know what it is about the American psyche that constantly compels us to run ourselves down. And to think that everything "European" is always and necessarily better than everything "American."

it should be noted that it's not very easy finding canned san marzano tomatoes in northern NJ even. the supermarkets carry 20 brands, none of which are san marzano. so yeah, i end up eating second-rate canned tomatoes most of the time. As opposed to my local grocery store, which is a regular chain store, which is not a "gourmet" type store at all, which is located in fact in a very working-class neighborhood, and which in addition to all of the regular "American" brands carries some four or five Italian brands, including two types of San Marzanos, and the San Marzano brand that is grown and canned in the US, and the wonderful Muir Glenn brand that is produced in the Pacific Northwest.

As a cool and hipster (well, hippy anyway) grandmother myself, I vote for the day in Ft. Worth. I live in Austin, which is certainly farther from the museum/cafe than North Dallas, and I'd love to drive up there, spend the afternoon looking at the exhibits and having lunch. If your granny drives the freeways at all, she can get there I'm sure. Or she perhaps might have a younger granny friend that can drive. I vote for that.

Because the implication is that Americans are served crap in crappy restaurants because Americans cannot tell the difference between "good" food and crap, and when they can, they actually prefer crap, if said crap is good looking. ....and is served in huge quantities. Damn straight. Supersize that crap.

A thoughtful and non-judgmental post. The truth without arrogance and condescension and sweeping condemnation. Thanks, Kinsey.

I actually LIKE that. You know, a lot of people must. It's certainly popular enough. I guess I just need to try harder. I'm about nothing if not tradition.

As opposed to shopping on foot, or via tube, bus, taxi, etc., and therefore not minding the additional 5-10 so miles to go to the farmer's markets? I shop (in Canada) by car so that I can hit five different stores in an hour. Right. I simply couldn't GET around to my favorite farmer's markets (never mind out to the "pick it yourself" farms) without my car. I don't understand this one at all.

That green bean casserole with the cream of mushroom soup and the canned fried onions. What's up with that?

As opposed to shopping on foot, or via tube, bus, taxi, etc., and therefore not minding the additional 5-10 so miles to go to the farmer's markets?

And I guess that as an American, I am as susceptible to this as anyone else. It may not be how I select a tomato, but, God knows, that's how I wound up with my first ex-husband.

Because the implication is that Americans are served crap in crappy restaurants because Americans cannot tell the difference between "good" food and crap, and when they can, they actually prefer crap, if said crap is good looking.

Can be used as a weapon... Apparently so, as you are no longer allowed to take them on airplanes in your carry-on luggage.

I adore you Tommy, and once again you're right. You can use me as an example. I go to the supermarket and: I buy second-rate cherries because I don't live in BC. I buy second-rate bananas because I don't live in Panama. I buy second-rate salmon and halibut and crab and blueberries because I don't live in Alaska. I buy second-rate mangoes because I don't live in India. I buy second-rate pineapple because I don't live in Hawaii. I buy second-rate lobster because I don't live in Maine. And I buy those damned old dried-out hard coconuts because I don't live in the Philippines. So shoot me.

Tommy. Someone here said that "MOST AMERICANS HAVE NEVER TASTED" a good tomato (edit: okay, 'produce'). Do you honestly believe that? Never? but i don't know if the tale of our families' gardens holds up very much. Actually, according to recent Harris Poll , gardening is the number one favorite hobby of Americans, but if you will reread my post, Tommy, I didn't say that everyone has a family garden. For one thing, you can add "friends' and neighbors' gardens" into the mix. Who do you know that has never had to figure out yet another way to use up some friend's endless supply of zucchini? (Of course, they hoard the tomatoes for themselves.) But primarily, in addition to private gardens (not to mention people like me that don't have a "garden" but that grow tomatoes in containers on our patios), there is an abundance of farmer's markets, roadside stands, and the ubiquitous fellows selling tomatoes and other produce from the backs of pickup trucks along the highways. When I lived in California, the "strawberry man" came twice a week to all of the offices in the neighborhood where I worked, selling strawberries and other products from the back of his truck. I remember one day his offering the strawberries at a great discount and apologizing because they were "picked yesterday." Here in Austin, there are several Mexican fellows that make the rounds of the offices downtown selling fresh produce from their family's farms in the valley. There is an entire "underground" economy out there making a buck from fresh produce. I mean, I know it is absolutely always completely in fashion to disparage Americans in every way, shape and form. And sometimes we even deserve it. But I think saying that "most" of us have "never" tasted good produce, and don't prefer it when it's available, is ridiculous.

Apparently not. I loved the part about how one tree, planted in special soil and given special treatment, managed to produce one fruit, and then died. So clearly this isn't the Kudzu of the fruit world.

Look, I've got to go. I can't keep this up. This is what I believe. The average American consumer does value convenience and cost (but not necessarily appearance) over flavor and taste. In the instance where both are equal; that is, the convenience and cost factor are the same, they, like everyone everywhere, prefer the better-tasting products. Where they are not -- for example, tomatoes in January -- they choose inferior products over having none at all. Is that a good thing? I don't know. I'm heading to the supermarket now to pick up some peaches from Chile.