Mikeb19
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Posts posted by Mikeb19
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a couple of thoughts on gelatin ...
the height of popularity for gelatin-rich stocks was probably the 1970s, when nouvelle cuisine made it fashionable to substitute meat glace-based sauces for demiglace based ones.
it seems that using lots of gelatin has since gone out of style, since it has its own drawbacks. too much and you can get a kind of stick mouthfeel (gelatin is a traditional glue, after all ....). and it congeals when it cools, so you can have some issues with getting food to the table hot, and hoping people like it enough to gobble it up before the sauce gets gluey.
i treat gelatin as a nice byproduct (of the cheap, bony cuts that supply some roasted flavor, and keep the price reasonable compared with an all-meat stock). but i don't like to use so much that it can thicken the sauce by itself. that strikes me as too much. i've never seen the need to add refined gelatin to a stock or sauce.
Just my personal thoughts on this and sauces in general (not what we did at the restaurant). I personally like rich meat broths, to thicken into a sauce just a little bit of potato starch and butter. Glace does get too sticky. I'm also not too fond of gelatin's mouthfeel in general, about the only thing I use it for is some foams.
About the oxtail jus - you basically get as much sauce as liquid that goes into the bag, and you use enough liquid to cover the contents of the bag. I never really measured
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With the chicken you mention just using the juices from the sous vide bag. Does this strike you as similar to what's being suggested in the other thread on chicken stock? It seems like a great idea if you're going for an intensity of flavor, which I'm more likely after with beef jus/glace than with chicken stock. Have you ever tried the sous vide approach with beef?
Yeah, the method in the other thread for chicken stock is similar to what we were doing, instead of making stock though, we were adding a little to the bag to add flavour to the chicken, and then using it for the jus afterwards (just a quick reduction, a little butter, and it was good to go).
Haven't tried cooking steaks sous-vide (that's not what you're asking, is it?) - the cuts we were getting at the restaurant were so well marbled and so tender, that they really wouldn't have benefitted much from being cooked sous-vide (as opposed to say pork or chicken, which definitely are better sous-vide).
For sauces though, we did an oxtail jus sous-vide (I mentioned it upthread, but never in much detail), so here goes.
It's really simple. We roasted the oxtail in a pan in some brown butter, then roasted the vegetables (carrot, celery root, onion). Let it cool down slightly, and put everything in the sous-vide bag. Add some aromatics (bay leaf, thyme), add veal stock to the bag, and seal. Cook at 80 degrees Celcius for 10 hours or so, strain the contents, and you have your jus. When you're ready to serve, saute some shallots, deglaze your pan with alcohol, then with the jus, mount with fat, and there you go. Honestly, this is probably my favourite way to do sauces. It's nice and simple, doesn't require much, if any reduction, all it requires is a sous-vide bag, water bath, and lots of time (or just good time planning - which I don't have when I'm at home).
Vegetable purees also turn out very nice sous-vide. Put vegetables in bag with stock, milk, butter, whatever you want - cook for a few hours at 80 degrees (until they're very tender), remove from bag and puree. Flavour is definitely more intense than cooking in a sauce pot.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that we did add some tomato to our veal stock. Not much though, maybe 10 small-ish fresh tomatoes for a whole batch. We didn't want our sauces tasting like tomato at all though, just added for their natural glutamate content
Anyhow, I did once (briefly) work at a restaurant that made Escoffier's traditional sauces pretty religiously. They weren't terrible (they were good, not great), but certainly not as good as the sauces we were doing at the more modern places. I'll take a simple pan sauce, jus, glace, etc..., anyday over the old sauces.
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Mikeb19, in talking about returning to older methods/styles of cooking you mentioned that you were interested in what was going on in Germany. What might that be?
I was thinking mostly of the 'New Nordic Cuisine' as well as what chefs like Marc Veyrat or Michel Bras are doing when I wrote it
, but I'm also quite interested in modern German cuisine (and unfortunately am just starting to learn about the 'New German Cuisine'). The trend in many parts of europe is now to create a new cuisine based on the terroir of the surrounding land, creating more 'natural' flavours - the flavour of the land itself. Many chefs are also going back to their own roots or the roots of the land for inspiration, foraging for herbs and vegetables in their own backyards. The end result is, rather than 'classic' dishes, creating dishes with flavours that go back in time, are more 'pure', yet are very modern at the same time. When I write sometimes I think one thing and write another, sorry if I caused much confusion. -
Mikeb19, if you don't mind, i have a few questions about the methods you describe.
roughly what quantities would go into making a quart of the final glace (for both stock and meat scraps)?
were your chefs partial to any particular kind of stock (a meat-rich stock or a gelatinous bone-based one)?
did you use any roasted bones in with the scraps?
did put use any aromatic veggies or garni in the glace at any point, or were those all reserved for the final preparation of the dish?
was the procedure based more on a particular amount of time of simmering (adding however much stock was needed to make up for evaporation) or was it based on however much time was required to consume a certain amount of stock?
and finally, do you know if anyone has written much about methods like these? i remember seeing something about this here on egullet (maybe from you) and they seem like a natural outgrowth of some of the older techniques peterson discusses, but i haven't yet seen anything exactly like what you describe in print.
Anyhow, for the stock we'd use roasted veal knuckles, some carrot, celery ROOT (we never used celery stalks for any stocks or sauces), and onions, as well as thyme and bay leaf. We'd let our brown stock go for about 8 hours. We'd do a case of veal knuckles (50 pounds) which would give us about 35 litres of stock.
For the jus, it depended alot on how many scrappings we had on hand at the time, we'd take the chain from the tenderloin for this, as well as all the scraps from butchering (cleaned of fat of course) - no bones at this stage. We did other meat glaces too (lamb mostly - for the chicken we'd use the cooking juices from the sous-vide bag). For the yields, it's hard to say, but probably 10 pounds of scrap required 10 litres of stock in total, and produced maybe a litre or two of glace. This is going from memory, could be off a little (that was a year and a half ago, since then I've been a full-time pastry chef).
Anyhow, the ingredients in the glace were beef tenderloin, carrot, celery root, onion (all roasted in brown butter in a pan - although for the amounts we were doing it would take many pans...), a little honey or a piece of sugar, bay leaf, thyme - we deglazed with water - no alcohol was added since we'd do that a la minute, that way we could also control and modify the final product if we wanted to (different alcohols and flavour profiles for a la carte, tastings, special tables, etc...). The time factor was based on how long it took the sauce to aquire the flavour and reduce to the proper consistency - at first we just added the whole amount of stock then reduced, a year later we changed our method - we'd add the stock little by little, topping it up as it reduced. Total time, 4-6 hours.
Our method was quite similar to Alain Ducasse's method, which is the method I think was discussed on the board a while back. If some of my amounts and times are off a little I apologize, it was awhile back, since then I've been doing more or less exclusively pastries.
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Mikeb, what you're describing does sound like an excellent approach (and I was specifically referring to what passes for glace at most non-world class restaurants, so it wasn't a dig at what you're doing).
When I hear someone talk about modern methods, I think of the most common ones: extreme reduction of stocks made from bones. These are the shortcuts on shortcuts; the ones that pale in comparison to classic methods.
What you're describing sounds almost like a return to pre-classic methods (coulis and double and triple stocks) which were abandoned for the classic methods on grounds of expense (when i talk about a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, the first shortcut is actually the classical technique!)
I'd be curious to hear more about what chef's are doing today in very high budget kitchens.
Yeah, to me, reduced stock is, reduced stock. I've given a few chefs a hard time about it.
When I do take a shortcut (usually at home) I'll proceed the same way I make a jus in a restaurant, but I wet the meat with water. Still works well, not quite as gelatinous, so I'll add a touch of potato starch.
Anyhow, yeah, there are alot of very old cooking techniques making their way back into cooking, (albeit with a modern touch) such as thickening sauces with bread (although rather than being there for the thickening power it's done for a certain flavour), cooking in wood fired ovens and on rotisseries, thickening sauces with blood or ground up innards (strained after of course), etc....
I've also seen plenty of chefs going back to more natural styles of cooking, and foregoing 'classical' cooking altogether, instead creating rustic, old style flavours based on the terroir with modern techniques. This includes the use of alot of 'forgotten' vegetables and herbs, lots of game, and foraged foods. Personally, I'm very interested in whats going on in German and Nordic cuisines nowadays.
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During the cold early mornings of fall and winter, hot cereal, especially oatmeal, is a favorite breakfast here. Usually I keep it very simple. This morning I tried something new, adding about a tablespoon or so of heavy cream and a small pat of unsalted butter to water, and cooked the oatmeal in that mixture. It was very good and quite rich. So, how do you make your oatmeal? And what kind of oatmeal do you use?
Shel
I usually make instant oatmeal with water, top with brown sugar, nuts and fruit.
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Yes of course there are people who like baked goods made with shortening. I think people confuse shitty baked goods with random ingredients.
yeah, yeah.
i'd really like to see a blind test with a good sample size of tasters.
in my own un-blind tests ... about a year of experimenting with tart shells ... the results were pretty clear. there will never again be any shortening in my kitchen.
you could well prove me wrong, but at the moment i'm convinced shortening is a cheap shortcut. it's truly easier, and significantly cheaper, to get good texture with it. but it's flavorless, and it's incapable of the luscious, melt-in-your mouth texture of butter. it's on my ever lengthening list of 'why f'ing bother' ingredients.
i don't bake professionally, but if i did, my response to people demanding vegan pastry would be the same as when I made ice cream professionally and customers asked for fat-free, sugar-free frogurt: Release the hounds!
Butter is definitely the way to go.
I never did any professional baking on a large scale though, only in restaurants. But I definitely prefer butter to any kind of shortening in pastries. -
Modern sauces are much better than the old ones, theres a reason no top restaurants use the old sauce repetoire anymore...
yeah, the reason is expense. most contemporary chefs have never even tasted a sauce made in the manner of escoffier or careme, so they're really in no position to judge them.
i happen to think that outside of world-class restaurants, what passes for glace is typically a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, and is not even in the same league as the classics from which they devolved.
as far as escoffier's recipe goes, it's possible that it won't actually be what the o.p. is looking for. the high ratio of veal to chicken suggests that it's really just a slightly more chickeny variation on a neutral white stock. the huge quantities of meat and bones will add savor and general deliciousness, but i doubt the overall effect will be an intensity of chicken flavor.
if extreme chicken is what you're after, check out the thread on making stock in a sealed bag. i haven't tried it, but it looks like a promising idea.
Well, I'm not sure what passes for glace at most places, the chefs I worked under in fine dining were both world class... What we did was anything but cheap.
Anyhow, checking my Escoffier book, all he does for glace is reduce stock. Demi-glace is half espagnole sauce, half stock, reduced with sherry added.
When we make glace, we roast scraps from prime cuts of meat (as well as vegetables, aromatics, sometimes a piece of sugar), and wet it with stock. Let it cook, reduce, constantly topping it with more stock (rather than taking a large pot and simply reducing it, we'd wet it little by little, adding more hot stock as the sauce reduces). When we served the piece of meat, we'd toss shallots and aromats into the roasting pan, deglaze with liquor, then some glace, then we'd mount it with either fois gras, butter or creme fraiche.
We also made an oxtail jus sous-vide - we'd roast the oxtail with vegetables, then seal the oxtail and vegetables with aromats and veal stock in a sous-vide bag, then cook it at 80 degrees for 10 hours or so... Very little reduction required since you use alot less liquid to begin with.
Just curious, but have you ever worked in a professional kitchen, especially at a high level?
The fact is, the old sauces are outdated. Not because of cost, because new techniques are better. Even Escoffier himself in his book talks about how in the near future cooks will use pure starches instead of roux as thickening agents, producing a far superior product (hint - it's in the roux section). Clinging on to the old sauce repetoire is pointless.
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Can anyone give me Escoffier's original recipe for making a classic chicken based glace' sauce? I know it is a lengthy process that involves lots of bones, vegetables and reductions over the course of many days, but I'd like to venture into making a feeble attempt at the original.
I've done lots of dishes using shortcuts to create a chicken jus or chicken demi-glace and I've used commercial demi-glace products to help me along the way, but I'm still coming up short in terms of deep chicken flavor. I thought I'd try the master's original recipe. Any help is appreciated.
Modern sauces are much better than the old ones, theres a reason no top restaurants use the old sauce repetoire anymore...
The key to a flavourful jus, is to start with a flavourful bird. Most grocery store chickens are sorely lacking in flavour, so find a free range bird, then proceed from there.
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You cut chicken breast into cubes. Mix up some egg whites with corn starch, and coat the chicken in it. Deep fry at low temperature for a minute or so, then finish the cooking in a sauce or stir fry.
'Velveting' refers to the technique of coating in starch and egg whites, then deep frying at low temperature. You don't want to completely cook the pieces in the oil, you cook it just enough to 'set' the outer part.
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Check again.
Prime is the top 3 % of beef on the continent. I do not think that it is broken down to different quality grades within Prime. You could specify breed and age, but Prime is Prime. Given the difficulties in the beef market right now, I do not think that level of specifics is possible right now. 3 % of 3% is three animals in 10,000 and that is very unlikely for one restaurant the size of Gotham. You would eat through most of that tight a spec in a few weeks. I would imagine that Gotham goes through 2 - 3 beef cattle a day in middle cuts ( Prime Rib, Ribeyes, New Yorks, Filets ) .
I think that you are dealing with the top 3 % ( 3 in 100 Beef Cattle )
Canadian PRIME beef is the top 0.7% of beef...
At the restaurant I used to work at, all our beef was Canadian certified PRIME, and it was incredible. Best steak I ever had was a blue rare filet at that restaurant (end of the night snack
) Who needs sous vide anyway, those steaks were incredibly tender, anymore so and they would have fell apart... Not to mention flavourful.
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Here in Canada, cooking is a regulated trade, just like pipefitting or welding. It takes three years to become a certified journeyman, whether that be three years in the field or two years of school followed by a year in the field. These standards were developed by the industry in partnership with the government, so a year in the field and a year in school are de facto equivalents here.
Don't get me started on Canada's trade system, especially when it comes to cooking. All I'll say is that it's a complete @#$%ing joke, and not worth a second of anyone's time...
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Was it Alton Brown who pointed out that a lobster is just one step up the evolutionary ladder from a cockroach? It's just that for me that is one helluva big step!
It's funny, my co-workers used to always give me shit for calling lobsters the 'cockroach of the sea'.... It's true though, shellfish are basically aquatic bugs. And bivalves are water filtration devices.
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IMO never look for a job when you dont already have one unless you are independently wealthy or have at least 6 months of operating expenses saved up. Not having a job makes you desperate unless you can land your dream job within the first week or two of looking, which doesnt always happen. Then at that point you start to get a little desperate and any job offer starts to sound good.... until you start working there and realize this place is worse then the last, and the only reason you took it was because rent was coming up or you had to put gas in the car. Always negotiate from a position of power, ie "why should I work for you, I already have a job...?" Instead of "Can I please have a job I need some money?"
If I need money while unemployed usually I'll just do some part time work for friends under the table... However I always like to have at least several months pay saved up in my bank account, so that I'm never desperate for money.
But totally agree that you cannot show ANY signs of desperation in an interview, and that you need to negotiate from a position of power.
The problem with looking for a job while having one is that you look disloyal - like a job-hopper. The new employer will think that if you already have a job yet are looking, that you might do that to him as well. He'll question your motives. I know if I had a cook looking for a job behind my back, I'd fire him on the spot. On the other hand if he told me or put in his notice in a professional manner, I'd support him.
However if you tell them you left your previous job because you needed a change or whatever, and you'll thouroughly yet carefully looking for the right fit while taking a little time off, it makes you look better and more professional. Not to mention you'll be able to do a couple trial shifts and show them what you really can do, without worrying about scheduling around your current job.
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yep i agree this is one of those topics that keeps getting all stirred up, and really, what it boils down to is YOU. do YOU think you would benefit from cooking school, or do you think you can learn on your own? in either case, as everybody has noted, some serious professional experience will put you on the right path.
I think it was telling that you are oscillating between pastry and cooking for which one might be easier. again, which is your passion? for me it was a no brainer...pastry all the way. I didn't choose it because it was easier, actually it's more difficult on some level by the very nature that less people eat dessert. i'm just saying, and don't worry about the "rules" of whether an education will get you ahead or not, don't worry about the fact you are a woman, just find the path that fits your passion, and start believing in yourself. know who you are and who you want to be.
best of luck.
To add to this - passion, willingness to learn are key. If you want it enough, are willing to put time in, you'll make it. I used to come in to work on my days off to do pastries (I started off on the line doing savoury foods), and would always watch what the other cooks were doing. If you do decide to go to school, pay attention, ask plenty of questions, and practice at home.
And when you finally do get into the workplace, don't assume you know anything. There are many different ways to cook, and learning all of them is valuable experience. Whether you think that restaurant is using good technique or not learn it, if only to learn that it doesn't work...
And finally, what my old chef told me on my first day on the job in a fine dining restaurant: Everyone makes mistakes, the key is to learn from them, and never repeat the same mistake twice.
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My concern is what happens in a few more years when Young culinarians decide that they are not gona deal with low pay and long hours just to say you worked with said chef. This is a very possible trend given tht younger people are wanting more for less. Will fine dining restaurants mo ve to simpler foods to deal with less employees or will wages increase. ( I have heard from a few chefs with concern of having hard time finding and keeping good employees)
Why is that a concern? Restaurants are a business, not a charity. If employees aren't getting paid enough, they leave. Prestige, working for a good chef - this stuff doesn't mean shit when you can't pay your bills... I for one don't feel the least bit sorry for a restaurant that can't provide a decent work environment.
I think both of your scenarios will happen. Higher wages, less employees, and simpler food. The days of having a huge brigade are over, restaurants will have to have a small core of professional, well paid cooks, and figure out a way to still turn out great food (ie. simplicity).
It's always interesting to look through the job advertisements and see who's hiring. Restaurants that 4 years ago had stacks of resumes to burn through, now are taking out ads for help. Restaurants that 4 years ago paid minimum wage, now are paying 18 dollars an hour...
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Interesting to hear you say that, Mikeb19... What I've been told -- and this is from local chefs (not the culinary school) -- is that a culinary education (degree) equals approximately 5 years in the business, assuming all other factors like knife skills, speed, etc, are the same. You'll still start peeling vegetables, sure, but you'll move up much more quickly.
It's an interesting experience to be the only cook in a kitchen who knows how to make a buerre blanc without looking it up first. I thank culinary school for that.
Obviously different people have different experiences...
I started out as a kid off the street, living in the housing projects, getting into trouble with the law, etc... I was looking for a job, and I accidently walked into the top restaurant in the city (not knowing where I was) - the hostess wanted to kick me out but the executive chef wanted to talk to me. He hired me, and within 3 months I was a Chef de Partie at that restaurant. 2 years after that (at age 21), and I was the first cook (as well as pastry cook) in a restaurant that was considered one of the best in the country. Later that year I was offered my own kitchen (which I turned down, still too young), and instead took a position as a pastry chef.
Anyhow, if you're willing to learn, put in time, you can rise through the ranks quickly - school or no school.
I'm glad you had a positive experience at school. Unfortunately my experience with culinary school grads has been less than positive...(I could go on for hours) The ones who were decent had experience far beyond school...
The chefs who taught me, none of them went to school. They came from 2/3 Michelin star restaurants in France and Switzerland...
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Hi all!
I'm a 20 year old female, seriously considering a career in the restaurant kitchen.
I've been studying Food & Nutrition and now I realize that professional cooking is my true passion.
I'm considering studying at Le Cordon Bleu for their "Grand Diplome".
How important is this kind of culinary education?
How much "ahead" can I get than just starting as an apprentice?
Which Cordon Bleu is better? London, Paris or Ottawa?
I've heard that Le Cordon Bleu has become quite commercialized over the past years, Could anyone suggest another culinary school?
Is it worth the money & time to go to such a pricey school or should I take my time and work up the Brigade de cuisine from the bottom?
Or should I try working in a restaurant for a couple of months before I commit to this business?
Thank you very much!
Definitely try working in a kitchen before you spend on school.
And to answer your questions on culinary education - it's not important, and it won't get you any further ahead than starting as an apprentice. Every place I worked, the culinary school grads started out peeling vegetables, sorting through lettuce greens, scrubbing oysters, etc...
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I've always found it easier to look for a job while not working... Makes scheduling interviews and whatnot easier, not to mention the industry is tough, and it's nice to have a break in between jobs... Not to mention it always gives me time to visit friends in the industry that I don't see often enough.
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Well, that name makes more sense for a movie-cafe type thing than it does for a proper restaurant.
You know, I've always wondered about the French names some restaurants choose - sometimes it seems they pick a name just because it's French and sounds 'fancy'...
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What are your thoughts on the New and improved logo.
I wanted to keep it classy yet with an edge.
also a design that would look good in black and white.
This is the most recent registered logo.
Also comming soon...www.theninespot.com
Also..I would like to know if this logo is t-shirt worthy
Personally I like it. A little retro, clean looking. And yeah, I think it would look good on a T-shirt.
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Anybody have a good source for womens chef jackets that don't look like they are modified mens jackets?
Hello. I am not shaped like a man and I'm tired of looking like Mr. Potato Sack meets The Prison Warden.
Is there an unwritten rule that women need to look asexual, I mean dowdy, in the kitchen?
Speaking of ill-fitting attire, it's not as if men have it easy either. Most chef jackets I've worn are way too tight in the shoulders, making it very difficult to reach anything up high. I'm not a particularly big guy (6'1" 190 pounds), but I need to wear an XL jacket just to have that shoulder room (and of course the rest of the jacket is just huge).
I do agree however, that chef attire does seem rather potato-shaped...
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My 'recipe' (more like a technique), that I've used with great success in restaurants.
Bake potatoes on a bed of salt. Rice potatoes (you've got to work quick while they're hot). Sprinkle flour all over (and season with a little salt), then mix with your hands until it gets 'crumbly' - the drier the potatoes, the less flour needed. Add an egg yolk or two (for most home sized batches, 1 egg yolk should be enough), and mix until it is *just* combined (mix too much, it gets gluey). Roll into 'ropes' (make sure theres plenty of flour on your work surface), cut, and boil (or freeze).
Making gnocchi is more about technique than it is recipes. It's a very hands on, manual operation.
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I'm not sure I agree that bread is easy to make very well. It's a technically involved specialty product that a dedicated operation should be able to make better than a place that makes it on the side. I imagine this is why some restaurants even at the level of Jean Georges buy their bread instead of making it.
Gelato is another example. A lot of restaurants just are not equipped to make gelato and sorbetto as well as dedicated operations.
Well, I guess I should have said that bread isn't too difficult for a high calibre restaurant to make well. The breads I've tasted from 'artisan' bakeries don't compare to the breads made at most of the restaurants I worked. Then again, there aren't many great bakeries around here. I suspect restaurants buying bread has alot to do with a lack of qualified staff, not to mention space is limited in a restaurant, and there are never enough ovens in a restaurant...
I'm not Italian so I can't comment on gelato (never had it, don't know what it's supposed to taste like), but I'll comment on iced cream and sorbets. The stuff I've made in restaurants (as well as doing hotline, savoury foods, I'm also a pastry chef) is much better than what I've ever had out of a container. Could just be my experience (I haven't tasted a ton of retail products), but I do think doing it yourself is better. Iced cream at a dedicated stand is another thing, but that kind of experience doesn't necessarily travel well... (the temperature you serve iced cream at is a huge factor in how it tastes, as is the amount of air in it)
If a restaurant isn't doing bread or iced creams/sorbets, it is more than likely is because their staff aren't skilled in those areas... (I've known executive chefs who couldn't bake bread or make iced cream...)
Classic Glace Recipe
in France: Cooking & Baking
Posted
Potato starch - just what I'm used to using, and it works well. It's also readily available around here.