Todd36

This is all tempting me to spend the $500 or so at Masa. That's roughly about 5 times what I spend for pretty good stuff at Sushi Seki. Gotta spend that (not so large) bonus somewhere. I think I know enought about Sushi to at least say if it is any good.

I've been to Kurma once, and I didn't pay that much. A friend who eats there often for business says regulars pay less, and they charge what they think people will pay for non-regulars. This is a problem I think with omaksase set-ups.

This is not true, despite what he may have said. While it is true that a coal or wood burning oven doesn't necessarily produce a better result than a regular gas oven, it is also a fact that there are some things one can do with a superhot coal or wood oven that is impossible with gas. Think about it: in order to produce that crisp crust, places like Di Fara have to bake the pizza for around ten times longer than places like Patsy's East Harlem. That means that the toppings will be much more cooked and substantially more water will have evaporated from the crust of the gas oven pizza. This is one reason why the crust of a gas oven pizza can never have that ethereal, soft, extensible light inner layer between the crisp bottom and the toppings, and also why the gat oven pizza can never compete with coal or wood on oven spring. That some places are able to produce crusts that compete with some of the coal oven pizza in NYC speaks more of the skills of the pizzaioli in the respective pizzerie than it does the potential of the respective technologies they employ. Without a doubt this is the single most important variable. ← The now closed place produced a crust like what you describe. You might also want to look at http://www.pizzaovens.com/specifications/m...s/woodtogas.htm It's an article by someone who sells pizza ovens for a living. He points out that wood burns drier than gas, and that a wood burning oven will produce a drier pizza than a wood burning one. I'm also somewhat doubtful that wood is very consistent, and that someone can always get good enough wood that will always burn hotter than gas. Coal is much hotter than wood or gas, and there was an article in the NYT I think recently about that. In any case, the oven isn't a big point, unless you like charred pizzas from a coal oven (I don't).

My favorite place no longer exists (a tiny place on Bleecker across from Porto Rico Coffee). I used to be friendly with owner. Well reviewed by Asimov. He had to close because of a fight with his ex-wife. Comments from him: (1) Ovens are basically ovens. He used to produce a very thin, crispy crust that was better than almost anything I've seen from a coal or wood oven. And he was using a standard Bari gas oven. (2) Flour counts. He was using a mixture of wholewheat and white flour, and I think a better grade than standard. The crust did not taste wholewheat, but the color was a little darker than usual. (3) Cheese matters. He cut his own slices from big blocks that looked like cream cheese bricks, not in his words "the yellow stuff." The cheese was made by Polly-o, which is owned by Kraft! My guess is that a lot of sliced cheese on pizza that you see is in fact this product, which I think Polly-O does not sell retail. (4) Skill counts. He and some 17 kid he trained made all the pizzas he sold.

I don't like his stuff at all and that recent Chocolate review in Time Out New York had some unkind words about his stuff from I think Robert Linxe.

If the restaurant is open and charging full menu price, then it can be reviewed. If the restaurant feels it is unfair to reviewed close to its opening, then it is unfair to charge full menu prices during that time. Other variations on the theme are: please don't review us after midnight (even though we are open until 4AM, our entire experienced sushi chef staff walks out at midnight, and no, we don't discount as a result) or please don't review us on Tuesday's, the regular chef isn't here, or we don't get fresh vegetable deliveres that day...Everybody can say their review is based on something unfair. I fyou don't want to be reviewed, don't open and charge full price.

Leonidas at around $26 a pound is the best bang for the buck. Better than Godiva and cheaper to boot. Several locations in Manhattan, three downtown in the financial district and one midtown, on Madison in the 50's I think.

I can't find the other thread. Last night, as I was eating sushi on Avenue A.....I dawned on both me and my Japanese dining friend that any kind roe, that means salmon roe etc is by definition a seasonal product and will almost always be frozen, even at a place like Masa. Fish only spawn a short time of the year, as far as I know. Between the roe, toro, and fresh water fish, plus seasonal types of yellowtail, I bet much of the fish at Masa is frozen and stored for a while, something they are not anxious to tell you. By the way, that article I quoted from was about Tuna deep frozen at -87C, so I wonder if that guy in NJ is the supplier to Masa.....

I ate there Thursday night. It's pretty good, and the food tastes fresh. And they seem happy to speak English, even though 90% of their customers are younger Koreans. I had the dumpling soup, and it was good. Rich broth. The seafood pancake was also above average. My friend has something like ox-tail soup, with huge boney pieces of beef. Very good. The soups are a little salty though and the Panchan selection was small, but fresh and good. I think the barley tea is a freebe. Yes, they do give you that tiny yougurt drink at the end, which I actually like.

It's hard to know, because places never say their tuna is frozen, while they do say so when it is fresh. Some of the better tuna I've had was identified as fresh. There is a New York Times article from April 8, 2004 on the subject, and I've quoted bits below: Back to Todd. Based on that, I'd say frozen fish is rather common in even high end sushi places. Any fresh water fish, which includes salmon, must be frozen, becuase of parsite problems. And note that Masa, the subject of this thread, uses frozen fish. Tokyo is the global wholesale market for high end sushi fish. If someone catches a nice tuna in US waters, its going to wind up on a plane to Tokyo, to get the best price at auction. My guess is that no matter where it is caught, any fresh tuna you see in the US is at least 7 days out of water, probably longer. There is also the question of what is "fresh." With Chicken for exampe, US regs say you can keep the bird very cold and still call it fresh. "The term fresh on a poultry label refers to any raw poultry product that has never been below 26 °F. Raw poultry held at 0 °F or below must be labeled frozen or previously frozen. No specific labeling is required on raw poultry stored at temperatures between 0-25 °F." The above quote is from the USDA site. My guess is that even "fresh" tuna has been kept quite cold, probably somewhat below freezing.

Fresh tuna is seasonal. No way anyone, including Masa, can get things like fresh toro year round. Most of the wholesale sushi fish business is frozen. In any case, my point was not that Masa wasn't buying expensive fish, but that just because fish is imported from Japan doesn't mean it has to be expensive. BTW, note that the web page I referenced is from a major uni provider. While their fish may not be Masa grade, I have a feeling that isn't so bad, and it is very cheap. In any case, the market for fish isn't so secret. Take a look at http://www.tsukiji-market.or.jp/tukiji_e.htm. A number of the wholesalers have English language pages. They all seem to sell frozen tuna......

That fish imported from Japan has to be at high cost is a myth. Air Freight on fish is probably $2 a pound and much of it is shipped frozen, so it doesn't require much special handling. Many sushi places in NYC serve at least some imported from Japan fish at far less than Masa prices. Even places that don't boast about fish from Japan are probably serving it. For example, I am pretty sure any piece of toro you will ever see went through the Japanese wholesale market, no matter where it was caught. Also don't forget that for most sushi, the cost of the fish isn't so high. Check out http://catalinaop.com/sushifish.htm. I bet that even at Masa, they are paying $25 or less a pound for most of the fish, and that works out to less than $1 per piece of sushi. In fact, if Masa is using really high grade from Japan rice, the rice in your sushi could cost more than the fish. Even local NYC Japanese stores like JAS Mart sell Japanese rice for $10 a pound, and that isn't the highest grade available. More rice than fish in your sushi...get the picture.

But if he's not a sushi chef... ← He makes a piece or two of damn good sushi as part of the dinner set. More to the point, I know he can make sushi if he wants to....(I have an inside source). He's a general chef, which is the same thing I think Masa is. I don't want to start a new thread, but Mr. Sugiyama I think received most of his training at a very famous hotel kitchen, where they served all sorts of fancy stuff. The man who owns Donguri (recently reviewed in the NYT) trained in the same kitchen, although I understand their seniority level was different. I don't know where Masa trained. There are a finite number of very high end Japanese places, even in Japan, and it seems the top chefs trained at a small number of places

Yes. I included it on the theory that Masa lies somewhere between Kuruma (which does not offer cooked food) and Sugiyama (which is mostly cooked food). You really need to compare all three to be fair to Masa, by comparing Masa to a top sushi place and a top cooked food place. I've always wanted to get Mr. Sugiyama to make sushi for me.....

The sushi they serve at the Bar, I've had it twice, is above average, but it's also something like $70 for I think 8 pieces. At best, it's equal in qualtity to a $35 sushi deluxe at one of the better places in town. And the quality of service in the bar is poor. I suspect the NYT split 3/4 star rating was due to poor service by the staff, if the people working in the bar are similar to the people working in the main place. My other point is that something is wrong with Masa if the food in poor and overprices in Bar Masa. A counterexpample is Jean George and Nougatine. I've eaten in both. Clearly, the $20.04 lunch special at Nougatine is not as good as the prix fix in the main dining room. On the other hand, it's quite good for $20.04. Nothing wrong with having a second room with smaller portions and less fancy food, priced accordingly. I never feel ripped off at Nougatine. Is it perfect? No, but its prices are reasonable for what it is and it does not detract from the main dinign room. To me, Bar Masa detracts from Masa: it's overpriced and not good. With respect to $190 a pound fish, I'm not so sure that is really expensive. That's 16 ounces. I bet the sushi at a high end place has at most .5 ounce of firsh per piece. Even with triming, I bet they get 25 pieces of sushi from that $190 pound of fish. That would make their fish cost less than $10 per piece, and I doubt you get that many pieces of super grade tuna at Masa in that $300 dinner. If I can find 2-3 other crazy people, we can do dinners at Masa, Kuruma and Sugiyama. If we stick to cheaper sake, should cost less than $1000 a piece for all three. Then we can write an article and compare!!!!

I've had the sushi twice at Bar Masa. Any number of places of NYC serve sushi as good or better, for half the price. Even Masa knows the Bar is overpriced, the bartender told me they had recently cut $20 off the price of the sushi assortment. This isn't a question of not being able to afford to go to Masa. I spent about $900 on dinner last month at ADNY. This is a question about whether Masa is serving something better than competing, cheaper places. In the case of Bar Masa, it is clearly overpriced as compared to other places on NYC that offer better food for less money. I don't know about Masa itself. I have been told by Japanese food professionals that there are limits as to what ingredients you can buy, and that Masa can't be buying things that are noticably better than several other Japanese places in town, the stuff just doesn't exist. According to that TONY article, Masa serves ample Gold Leaf and Cavier, along with White Truffle. The last two are not exactly classic Japanese ingredents and may explain where some of the money goes. For example, any one of a number of places serves Mastake mushrooms, from various countries.

There is at least one other sushi place in NYC that has similar budget busting prices (but no $300 minimum) and that would be Kurma. Kurma is known to be able to turn out very good sushi, at prices to match, and Masa would have to beat Kurma on sushi to survive. My budget doesn't allow this right now, but I'd like to compare Masa to Kurma. In the cooked food department, Masa has to show its better than Sugiyama, which already has the $150 prix fix budget locked up. I also have to wonder if Masa can really make much money on beverages. Having recently eaten at ADNY, where $2,000 bottles of wine are scattered across the list, I have to wonder what Masa can sell? Wine is not a typical sell for that kind of food, and sake rarely goes above $100 for a 720ML bottle. One of the reasons why the food at a place like Sugiyama or Kurma is so expensive is that they can't sell the expensive wine a place like ADNY or Jean Georges does. This isn't my own theory, I've been told by the owner of a very high end Japanese place that many customers drink $6 bottles of beer with $100 dinners, others like green tea, and more than you think drink house sake. Some do drink premium sake. Very few order wine. High end Japanese places have trouble making large amounts off of beverages.

From your description, it sounds like you ate at Bar Masa, not Masa. ← I've eaten at Bar Masa twice. It's not very good.

The reporter describes it as about 50% empty two nights in a row. Tough to keep going with that. I've heard similar comments from someone involved with a competing four star "Masa is not long for the world." It's not a hack report. The reporter loved the sushi. He just wanted more, and he didn't find the other food inspiring.

This week's issue of Time Out New York has a fairly long article on Masa. It seems they sent a reporter to dine there. While he really liked the sushi, it's clear he didn't like much else and did not like the service, the atmosphere or the attitude. He also noted that the place lacked customers. While I haven't eaten at Masa, I have been to the bar portion twice and was not impressed by the food they serve. I've heard more than one rumor that Masa may close soon. Any one else have any views? Anyone else eaten there?

Has anyone tried the seafood at Sparks? Say the lump crab meet and bay scallops? Or any other seafood item?

Ivy's on 72nd between Broadway and Columbus isn't bad. The Chinese place on 72nd between Broadway and West End has changed ownership yet again, and now seems to be doing much more business than before (Shanghi style). I have not eaten there yet. Both are on the south side of the street. To add fuel to the fire, Shun Lee Cafe (the cheaper part of Shun Lee West) is overpriced but good (meaning above average).

I've been there, and I've had fresh tofu at a number of other places (one of my friends swears by Seoul Garden). In my experience, the stuff varies from batch to batch no matter where you get it from and I've had stuff from carts that is just as good as anything from a sit-down place. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the tofu served on the street and the tofu served at Cho Dang Gol have a common source: I bet Cho Dang Gol doesn't make its own soy milk from scratch and they buy from a local specialist, the same one who supplies tofu for the street. Soaking and grinding soy beans is a big pain. Some tofu can be better than others, but in the scheme of things, its not a product with a wide variation of taste choices. Note that fresh tofu is not part of the menu at Sugiyama, and given that they make everything else from scratch, that should be food for thought. Tofu is not something you build a fine dining establishment on, and I think that is Bruni's point. Or if you prefer, as an example of what I think he is trying to say, what if the cornerstone of ADNY were say plain Wonder style bread? Would you wax poetically about boiled wonder bread? Like fresh tofu, it's got a taste that serves as a foil for other flavors, it's not easy to make well etc......From Bruni's point of view, it's like if ADNY were built on wonder bread. Perhaps more to the point, EN serves its tofu plain, its not part of other dishes, which might make it more interesting. The one time I ate at EN, the tofu was good, in fact, I think I said in a post it was the best I've had in NYC. But it's still tofu. I actually like tofu. The version at EN has a strong flavor of soybeans BTW.

In other words, this is a tofu-hater. How would it do to have a cheese-hater review Artisanal? And there's nothing odd to me about a restaurant featuring artisanal tofu. I enjoy Cho Dang Gol very much. ← He's clearly demonstrated he is an absolute ignoramus when it comes to understanding the intracacies of Asian cuisine. ← I ate at EN about a month ago. It's not very good, plain and simple. I'm not sure it even deserves one star. His review is accurate in that sense. Plain tofu is a very acquired taste, and like Bruni, I really can't think much of a restaurant built around a product sold for a $1 on the street in Chinatown (EN's version is good, but we're still talking plain tofu, and I think if you get it fresh, the street cart version is probably as good as EN's). EN is all about form over substance: millions spent on the room, not so much money spent by the kitchen on the food. It is also wildly uneven, which is a point Bruni made. We can argue about his diatribe on tofu, but he's right, EN just plain isn't very good.

ADNY has subtle food, which may not be what people expect. The best baba rum I've ever had, but its a classic dish that probably hasn't changed in a hundred years, and its subtle. The same for the egg and truffle dish. Except for the truffles, no obvious fancy ingredents. This may be part of the problem. The food just doesn't look fancy, or sound fancy. It's very well prepared, but not exactly from the impressive to look at department. ADNY also opened with a high pressure media campaign, which created both very high expectations and a need for people to knock it down. The same thing happened to Masa. While I have not yet eaten at the real Masa, I have eaten at the bar twice and it wasn't very good. Someone I know who really knows Japanese food told me her opinion of the real Masa, and it wasn't good. (this is not my usual friend). Sometimes overhyped places deserve their subsequent bad press, and Masa seems to be an example of such a place. ADNY is not. And if you want salty and highly seasoned food with 60 ingredents, ADNY is not the right place.