Todd36

I've eaten there a number of times. Not that great. There is an interesting place called I think Hoi An a bit further down West Broadway, just before Odeon. Hoi An is (I kid not) Japanese owned and run but Vietnamese in food. It's interesting and well not not worth a long trip, no worse in my opinion than Nam, perhaps better.

Probably a new topic, but if you read trade rags, there is a shocking amount of pre-made material on the market. I think it may be Hormel's main business these days, and we are talking about way beyound chain places, to individually owned establishments at high price points. And I don't think this is so new. Want to bet as to how many places in NYC make their own fresh ravoli for example? I bet most places buy it straight pre-made from a local supplier. And for some things, making it from scratch is a big pain. It takes a lot of equipment to make Chinese roast pork from scratch, and I bet most places buy it from a local supplier, rather than buying a truckload worth of specialized equipment. Take a look in the back room of say Big Wong. What floored me about Yeah was this was supermaket stuff.

I don't think they were the soup dumplings. Looked like pork dumplings and I think a taro cake. I strongly suspect that several wholesale operations in NY make most of the dumplings, steamed buns etc that we eat. The weird thing about this experience is that these were coming from a supermarket style package. In terms of why they could be better....who knows....might be the way they handle them. I suspect that a lot of food in Chinatown comes from wholesale places. For example, I bet roast meats and ducks come from only a few sources. For example, I recently ordered peking duck for out of town friends at Oriental Garden, a dish I've never seen served there. I expected a diaster. Instead, it was very good. The odds of them having their own duck around available with no notice seems almost zero (remember, its a Cantonese seafood place). I strongly suspect that they ran and got the duck from a specialist. With respect to wholesale soup dumplings, I suspect most of the work is in that soup base and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that it was bought from somewhere.

I've been turned off on that place ever since I saw them taking dumplings directly from supermarket packages and placing them in the steamers up front.

A friend in the business who is friends with the current owner.

In other areas such as movies or the book review, the Times has a clearly defined lead reviewer. In movies in particuar, important movies tend to be reviewed by the lead reviewer. One of the reasons I like the Wall Street Journal movie review is that almost all of them are done by one person, Joe Morganstern. I know his views well. More importantly, the Times has more than one book and movie review per week, which means each full-time reviewer has ample time to build up a body of work. With $25 and under appearing no more than 52 times a year, if you split it multiple ways, no one reviewer will ever develop a body of work for us to understand. If you want the food review to follow the movie/book/art model, than the NYT should have at least 5 full reviews a week. Given the size of New York City, I think doing so would be a good idea.

The Times is now rotating the $25-and-under column among several reviewers, which I think is a very good thing. It's not as if they're trying people out, to see who'll get the job. Today's $25-and-under was by Frank Prial, and I am quite sure he doesn't want a weekly reviewing gig. Eric Asimov has also done the column several times since relinquishing it as a full-time beat as of June 1st. ←

The guys know how to cut fish - the owner was a lox man at Zabar's for like 25 years before opening this place. I've been told that Sable's has been sold.

If memory serves, Bryan Miller was the food critic of the Hartford Courant when the NYT hired him. I think he had an established track record with reviews, unlike the current NYT technqiue which seems to be "try the world in print." How many people have done the MYT's reviews (both regular and $25 and under) in the last 12 months?

From the 1968 NYT book Aki Dining Room Chock Full of Nuts Chuan Hong Frank's The Great Shanghai The Green Tree Harbin Inn La Concha Moon Palace New Moon Inn New Shun Lee Shanghai Cafe Shanghai d'or Steinberg's Tien Tsin Tip Top Inn Tony's Italian Kitchen Tsuruya I think only Shun Lee is still around (and the name has changed slightly). Half of the places are Asian (Chinese and Japanese), which surprises me. There used to be a Japanese grocery store on Amsterdam Ave (I 've seen references to it), and I'm wondering if the area was more Asian at one point. Btw, Sevilla got one star and the review includes "kitchen is generally competant and the food is well seasoned." Still the same in my opinion.

Actually, classical music doesn't really evolve much at all. New pieces in more modern styles are created, but the old pieces pretty much stay the same (except perhaps for exact details of the instrument they are played on). Bach hasn't been revised much lately....and the execution of a performance is generally not linked to the time in which it is played....rather old performances are pretty hot re-issues...heard any Toscanini recently? Those close to 60 year old recordings sell pretty well. More to the point, I think cooking evolves a little less than you think. Or if you think it has to be new and modern to be good, I hope you don't eat any of the following, all of which have had standardized recipes for at least a 100 years: Vanilla ice cream. Water. Many breads. Most cheeses, other than processed types. Butter. Olive Oil. Roast Chicken. A beefsteak (Porterhouse is probably named after a tavern in Cambridge, MA) Corn flakes. Hot pepper sauce. A chocolate bar. Hot biscuts Pancakes Many soups. Varying the sauce doesn't count. I have a decent old cookbook collection and you would be amazed at how many "new sauces" are in hundred year cookbooks. I'm bored, and probably so are you. It's true that over time cooking tastes change, partly in reaction to new ingredents. But not always. 15th century cooking in England used all kinds of spices that you would think of as a middle eastern influence--- for example, they put rose water on all kinds of things. Sure, cooking changes. But just because its old doesn't make it bad. And it doesn't have to revised to stay in the market. I think top chefs like to invent "new" things for several reasons. One is that new things are fashionable, and to a certain market segment, that makes them good and attracts business. This ties back to the "What's a four star review" thread....people expect top places to be innovative....I think that is an example of peoples want Limoges....which by the way Sears sold by the barrel in 1900. High end dining is as much about fashion as it is about the taste. That is why people will spend $200 on dinner, even though my $3 bowl of soup is better than some of things I've had at Bouley lately---he has the Limoges. (Ok, so I crossed threads). My more cynical reason reason is that new cooking makes it tough to compare!!!! We can all argue about who has the best porthouse in town----it's harder to argue about the most recent emolusion from Jean-Georges. And I think chefs like difficult to compare food---it makes them better. My Japanese friends make the same point. I have one Japanese friend who grew up in Tokyo and was lucky enough to have the type of job where she ate out in fancy places on a regular basis---she knows what places like Sugiyama and Masa are supposed to taste like---unlike the rest of us.

Yonah's has never been good in my opinion. My grandparents thought it was bad 30 years ago. The last good knish I had, outside of a home, was at a kosher place in Coney Island 25 years ago that was soon after closed by the health department!

La Caridad on 78th has been around for a while I think. According to their website, Westside Restaurant, Broadway and 69th, has been around since 1965. I bet the number of pre-WWII places can be counted on one hand. On Broadway I can think of none.

I think there has always been some money on the upper west side, and I think the area must have always supported something that was expensive. Depends on what you define as the upper west side, but Cafe Des Artistes has been around for a while.....and it isn't cheap. And while Zabar's et al may have changed over time, I'm not sure what that means. Few places stand really still. Canned peas would have been acceptable in 1930 in winter...think they still are? Tastes change, I admit. But to this day, one of Zabar's strongest points is its smoked fish, something Fairway is decent at and Citarella is bad at. Citarella is still strongest at Fish, and now meat. Since Citarella is part of I think the second largest fish wholesaler in the city, I think is still is a fish market. And push come to shove, Fairway still is a fruit and vegtable stand at its core. My grandfather probably took me to Zabar's first in the late 1970's. Even at that point, it was a very famous store. In terms of how important is the decor, the moment you say a place needs Limoges you answer the question: to you, decor is more important. What you seem to be saying is: no matter how good the food is, if the decor and service are not good enough, it can't get four stars. So if for example, Jean Georges shut down all of his places, and took over All State Cafe (which has a well equipped kitchen for a bar), kept the current slightly competent wait staff, spent 10 hours in the kitchen every day and charged say $100 for a pre fix, and changed nothing but the food from the current All State Cafe, it couldn't rate 4 stars under your system. I suspect that if Jean Georges really did this, the food would be better than at any of his current restaurants. But the profits to him would be much lower. To me, it would be a four star restaurant (although I admit I would prefer better service for the money).

I don't have that 1968 book handy (I left it in the office), but it lists a number of large and expensive sounding places in the Lincoln Center area, none of which exist today. Most of Broadway betwen about 60th and 71st is covered with large high rise modern buildings. Of course, you can argue if that is the upper west side!!! In any case, on the east side of Broadway from about 60th to about 69th, I think every building is post 1965, and perhaps 1970. The west side of the street isn't much better. If there ever were any decent restaurants in that area, they probably didn't survive losing their buildings. Not to mention Lincoln Towers, which blew up 10 or so blocks. In fact, from 59th to 70th and west of Broadway, all the way to the river, almost nothing pre-dates WWII. Between Lincoln Center, Lincoln Towers, the largish public housing complex and apartment buildings on Broadway, almost nothing pre-dates WWII. In fact, the public housing is one of the few things that pre-dates 1965. Maybe this is one of the reasons why restaurants don't last long in NYC.

I live on the upper west side and I have to say, restaurants don't last very long. Even in the fairly short time I've been in my current apartment, several spots have turned over multiple times. I would bet the oldest restaurant on 72nd between West End and Broadway is All State Cafe, which dates back to the 1960's under that name. I don't know how old Pier 72 is, the coffee shop on West End and 72nd. According to their web site, the Kosher butcher Fischer Bros. & Leslie has been on 72nd street since 1949. Also, the corner grocery on West End and 72nd is licensed with a name like "San Juan Hill", which makes me strongly suspect it has been there for a long time.

By price, there are already 4 star Chinese and Japanese restaurants in town. In Chinatown, I mostly eat at Oriental Garden, and although you can't tell from the menu, you could spend well over a $100 a person there on food without difficulty. It is a seafood place, and most of the better stuff isn't on the menu. Start with the live shrimp and just go from there. It's got white tableclothes, and more service staff than usual in Chinatown, but not exactly 4 stars. My guess is that adding 4 star service would increase prices significantly, and that may be one reason why they haven't done it. I know based on conversations with the owner of a high end Japanese place that creating 4 star service would increases prices beyond what his customers would pay (they will barely pay the current price). I have a little guess as to why four star restaurants in NYC are French or French-like: WINE! Chinese and Japanese restaurants are never going to be able to sell highly marked up wine, which I suspect is a very main source of profit at say Jean-Georges. How many three and four stars are BYOB? But this entire conversation has me a bit concerned. Two of my favorite foods in NYC are cold borscht and lima-bean stew (each about $3 a bowl) at a very not nice to look at restaurant. In fact, they are better made than some food I have had at very expensive places, places that get three and four stars. I go to a restaurant for the food, not to see how expensive the tableware is. The idea that fancy service is more critical than the food, or even as critical as the food, seems bizarre to me, and brings back 19th century notions of canned food from S.S. Pierce served in silver toureens.

I think this was Crist Cella and was a steakhouse. It was a very attractive room with slightly above average steak. At least that's my recollection. My typo. It's "Christ Cella" and Claiborne lists it as "seafood", although he does mention steak in the narrative text, so it is probably the place you are thinking of. Back to an earlier chunk of thread. Some of the more interesting food markets/shops in town (Fairway, Zabar's, Barney Greenglass, Orwasher's, DiPaolo's, Russ & Daughters for example) are still (at least partially in Fairway case) in founding family hands and are quite old. How many restraurants in Manhattan are more than 50 years old and still have original family involvement? (yes, I can't spell)

For what's its worth, the original family behind Fairway is still a part owner. Yes, at least these days 3 and 4 star restaurants seem to have famous chefs. Again, from that 1968 book.... Luchow's was three stars and was over 80 years old at the time P.J. Clarke's was three stars and vintage 1900 Sweet's was three stars and opened in 1845 Are any current NTY three stars more than 25 years old? More three star places in 1968 (country as listed in book) Baroque (French) Bo Bo (Chinese) Cafe Chauveron (French I think) Casa Brasil (obvious) Charley O's bar and grill (Irish-American) Chist Cella (seafood, not sure of country) The Coach House (American) The Colony ( American) Copenhagen (Danish) Dinty Moore's (American) El Faro (Spanish) El Parador Cafe (Mexican!!!!) Fountain Cafe (American) The Four Seasons (American, making you wonder.....) The French Shack (French)

There is at least one fairly new high end Chinese restaurant in town: Mr. K's. I agree that the number of high end non-Japanese Asian restaurants in town is limited. I think that in today's market, there are limits as to what people will pay for cooking from a certain country, and I think French and Japanese are the two types of cooking that people are generally willing to pay the most for. Therefore, it is not a surprise that most of the NYT three and four star restaurants are either French or Japanese: they can charge the most and therefore have the most money to work with. I know, based on conversations with the owner of a NYT three star Japanese place, that his current menu pushes the limit on what people are willing to pay and that he cannot afford to raise prices more to create 4 star service. He thinks his food is four star, he knows his dining room is not. But this raises the question of how important is the service and the room, once you cross a certain point, anyway? Does it really matter whether the China is from Mikasa or Limoges? To bring back the famous joke, does it matter if they give you an expensive pen to sign your check with? Atmosphere to that extent matters if you are paying for entertainment. Or to change the subject slightly, would you turn down Yquem if it were bottled in a mason jar? I myself think that once the dining room is clean and pleasant, and the service competent, little is gained by futher style. I still think there is something wrong with the lifespan of Manhattan's restaurants. For example, if you walk on Broadway between 72nd and 86th, there are at least 3 and maybe 4 food stores that I think pre-date WWII and not one restaurant: Fairway, Zabar's, Citerlla and Murry's Sturgeon.

But 36 years doesn't seem like that much time. And the number of real long time places has really dropped. Things like Gage & Tollner and Luchow's are prime examples. There are very, very few places in NYC now that pre-date WWII. For example, Katz's is probably the only Jewish type deli in Manhattan that pre-dates WWII. The ethnic restaurant theory isn't very helpful (meaning they drove other types out). I have a re-print of King's Guide to NYC (I think from 1892) and it is loaded with ethnic restaurants, including for example a number of Japanese places. At least in NYC, it seems nothing survives for very long. In my spare time, I've flipped through that 1968 NYT book and I think nothing has survived below Canal Street!!!!

When I have time, I will try to type in more ratings from the 1968 book. I will say that Craig Claiborne seemed to have no problems handing out stars to all sorts of things. For example, I think Chock Full of Nuts got one star and I doubt that would be possible in the current NYT. He seemed to be very interested in food and willing to give stars based on the food, not which country the food came from and whether there were white tableclothes. For example, several bars came out well in his reviews. He also clearly liked both Chinese and Japanese food. One of the most startling things about the book is that something like 95% of the restaurants listed no longer exist.

One star in 1968. Based on the text in the book, I think it was higher when it first opened.