Todd36

It's not selling it that I see as a problem, its the use of it at the table. Would you be saying the same thing if you had dinner at Jean Georges and were handed one of their bottled dressings for your dinner? ← That's exactly the point of bbq. To each bbq establishement is much ado concerning "signature" whether it be the brisket, pork or sauce. Dino markets their own sauce and marinades. What could be the issue of keeping various sauces on the table, for the patrons to try at thier own leisure. How can a comparison be made between Jean Georges and a bbq joint? woodburner ← Jean Georges (the man) sells bottled salad dressing. Would you be happy if he served it to you in his namesake restaurant? I would have thought that you would have expected something made in the restaurant. Ditto with Dinosauer. Sure, they can sell what they want in bottles. But in their restaurant, I would hope they use a fresh sauce they make in the restaurant. But, they offer bottled stuff at the table that tastes a little like Kraft. And what they pour on your meat in the kitchen seems to be the same pre-bottled stuff. That is what I object to. And if this is their signature product, it needs lots of work. We can argue this back and forth all we want, but as far as I am concerned, Dinosauer is an OK BBQ place with a obvious chain atmosphere. The ribs in particular were a mess, covered in a thick crust of a salty rub. None of us wanted to finish them. Note, some of the "famous" places people have pointed to in places like Texas turn out to be 25 unit chains that appear to have outlets in Macy's Department Stores. I have my doubts that such places are that good. If we're going to talk about chains, Sonny's Real Pit BBQ has 150+ units in a just above fast food price point, and I think their BBQ is fairly good, might be better than Dinosaur in some respects. Anyone been to Redbone's in Sommerville?

It's not selling it that I see as a problem, its the use of it at the table. Would you be saying the same thing if you had dinner at Jean Georges and were handed one of their bottled dressings for your dinner?

It trys to look like a hole in the wall joint, and looks fake. That's part of the problem. Along with the food. I have a distrust for any BBQ place that serves sauce in pre-packed bottles from a factory. One of the people I had lunch with has eaten at their Syracuse branch many times. She says its much smaller than the Manhattan version, with a much different crowd, its a "dangerous" place and that is part of the appeal. She's also not sure how great the food is in Syracuse. Most of their customers have had several drinks by the time the food comes, its as much of a drinking as an eating place. It's become part of the popular culture in Syracuse, as the place to drink and eat BBQ. That is the key: as she pointed out, every male college grad in the area wants to have his graduation party catered by them. I'd be curious to hear from people who've actually eaten at both the upstate and Manhattan locations. If they say the food is the same, then I think Dino is a cultural and not a food place.

Having been there three hours ago, I can say it looks like a Cracker Barrel with slightly obscene move posters. It screams formula, pre-fab. It doesn't look or feel right at all.

I went there for lunch today, with three co-workers. 1. The brisket tastes like reheated meat and is OK. 2. The ribs are salty and without much flavor. 3. The pulled pork is good, but has too much smoke. I still have an acrid taste of smoke in my mouth an hour later. Overall, it's OK. Not worth the hype. Their sauces are sweet and not very good. Like generic stuff from a supermarket. Complete with added gums according to the label. The sides are pretty good. They have wood stacked inside the front door and wood on a cart in the dining room, for show. Co-worker from Rochester said its a cleaned-up version of the upstate joints and lacks their character. By NYC standards, its decent BBQ. Its not good by the standards of any decent BBQ place. I think the NYT and other reviews are on point and are accurate. I'm also wondering why I still have that acrid flavor in my mouth. My co-workers thought it was OK, but not worth the trip.

My guess is that your talking about large scale, well established places. If you drive along on country roads, you're going to find pork and not chicken, ribs or anything else. I would guess pork only for two reasons: its cheap (cheaper than ribs or chicken) and it stays for a while. Have extra chopped/pulled pork?, it's going to stay for a while, that chicken is going to get ugly. It's also easier to make one thing. Good BBQ requires watching, something more difficult when you have to cook different kinds of meat with different requirements. The places I've liked have been real small and in poor areas, they depend on locals and the rare person like me who drives by. They are not listed in things like "Southern Belly." But we can disagree here if you want. I've also reread Seimesta's review. I think its pretty clear he said he couldn't smell smoke or see wood, he didn't say they use no wood. The truth at Dino seems to be that they use some wood, but it sounds like it isn't their heat source. Truth be told, a few months ago Dino catered a political party across the street from where I was eating lunch and I talked to one of their owners. The BBQ smelled good, they had a cooker out. But I didn't smell wood and I saw no evidence of wood. I will make it up there some day to taste, probably next week. I think the idea that several professional food reviewers have it in for Dino is interesting. Why can't it be accepted that they might be right?

It's a feeble attempt by me to show a logic problem (more time to think when I'm home). Numerous people on this thread have said Seimesta and the NYT reviewer lack the knowledge to know what real BBQ is, therefore, their reviews are meaningless. Lets accept that proposition. If they lack knowledge about BBQ, that converts them into ordinary people with respect to BBQ. They didn't like Dinsosaur very much, even the NY Press review person said the apps were better than the mains, not a good sign. So I accept the proposition that the three review people are ordinary people and I also know they don't like Dinonsaur. That isn't a good sign: if people this thread has labeled as "people who don't know BBQ" don't like Dinosaur, the sort of people who are Dinosauer's target customers, Dinosaur has a problem.

If you google Dinosaur, up comes a number of less than favorable impressions, along with some good ones. I suspect the place is inconstant at best, and the word of mouth they are developing may not be so hot. That may hurt in long run. You are argue about whether the people who wrote the reviews know BBQ or not, but they plain dididn't like it, and if you want to argue they don't know BBQ, then fine, they are ordinary people who do not know BBQ and most of Dinosaur's customers are ordinary people who don't know BBQ and may not like what Dinosauer gives them.

There's a review in the NY Press at http://nypress.com/17/51/food/gershenson.cfm They gave it a mixed review. And note, they were not thrilled with the chicken. It seems like at best the food is inconsistant and the setting resembles a canned theme restaurant. I'm going to try this place next week, but three reviews gives me pause for what I'm gonna find.

This is the point I was trying to make

the only places you will find with one meat on the menu are in the carolina's and its all pork! ← And Georgia. Not to mention Floridia. I've seen pork only (as in pulled/chopped) places in all four states. It's a modified pig roast. You have a bunch of people to feed at some event, so you roast a pig. It tastes good and is cheap. My ex-co-worker from SC has family that does this for reunions and weddings and the like. She's been known to bring some back to NYC. Even after a day in the car, it's still better than anyhting I've gotten in NYC. You want to make a little money, so sell some of you roasted pig, thus the BBQ shack. As an aside, every year I drive from NYC to Floridia by various routes (went via Charlotte last time) and stop at random BBQ places along the way.

It's also all over Georgia, where people claim the name comes from Brunswick Island. I've had good BBQ in Georgia. I've also had good mustard sauce pork in SC, although the people working there said that was a style common in WV, where they were from. I guess I'm showing my bias, but to me BBQ means some sort of pulled/chopped whatever pork in a sauce that is not sweet. And I've never seen it made well in any sort of large place or place with a large menu.

If it serves more than one kind of meat, it is rather likely to not be decent. Real BBQ places do not serve brisket, ribs, pulled pork and chicken. I've never had decent BBQ at a place that served all four. Perhaps some place somewhere does. But not the places I know. They also don't seem to have Brunswick Stew on the menu----something very unusual for a place that serves vinegar style chopped pork. It's a theme park menu. It's also a big restaurant to be serving decent BBQ. Skill seems to be important in making BBQ and its the rare place that is going to operate three smokers, cooking different products, and doing in large quantities and doing it well. The best BBQ I've ever had all came from small places.....

Lets step back for a second and think about what Dinosaur BBQ is: it's a large, popularly priced volume restaurant with a menu that sounds like a theme restaurant. When I look at their menu on the web, I think "Olive Garden" or "Chili's." They have things on their menu like "Druken Spicy Shameless Shrimp." Not to mention things like a Cuban Sandwich. It's a theme restaurant!!! It's possible they make decent BBQ. Maybe I'll go up and find out. But I've never seen good BBQ from a place like Dinosaur; the menu is too big. Commenting on the NYT or Semesta as having an agenda may be interesting, but they gave stinky reviews. And isn't there a third bad review as well? There is a pattern.

I have not eaten at Dinosaur yet---but given the scathing review given by the NYT, I am not in a rush. In my experience, BBQ from places with broad menus is never good. I like vinegar sauced pork myself, and the best I've ever had was sold by a guy in a parking lot in the public market area of Savannah, GA. He cooked it at home and reheated it on a grill, gas in case you're wondering (I'm sure it was cooked on wood). According to the bar I was in, the same guy set up at 11 PM every night to sell BBQ sandwiches to the bar crowd. The local police ate there too. Second best I've had was somewhere in the backwoods of NC, from a guy selling BBQ from a window in his house.

Nippon Restaurant was probably good 30 years ago, my friends say its just plain bad now. It used to be a top NYC Japanese restaurant. I used to eat at Soba Nippon, same owner and it was OK, not great. Nadaman has a varying reputation, depends on who you ask. Nippon Club is supposed to be good; my friend's boss is a member and she (the friend) described a recent dinner there for a departing co-worker as quite good. I asked similar questions about value with respect to ADNY before I went there. Fat Guy convinced me it was worth it. My view about ADNY is that it is quite good and if I had money, I would probably eat there frequently. Given my current economics, I would rather spend my money on something else as opposed to ADNY. Masa may be that something else. This of course of also raises the question of taste buds. Some of my Japanese friends think sushi from Daichi is good. I've never liked Blue Ribbon Sushi, found Tomoe to be OK and while I like Tsuki, it isn't a first class place (nor is it priced like one). Many people on eGullet swear by those places.

Suzanne, it can't be quantified exactly—as you obviously recognize. This doesn't prevent one from saying, "My gut tells me that I'd have been happy to pay $150 for this experience, but at $225 it felt over-priced." It's obviously an imprecise assessment. Maybe that meal would have felt right at $175; I don't know. I can only tell you that my companion, whose knowledge of fine dining in NYC is roughly comparable to mine, had the same reaction. I reviewed the meal in question here. ← One of the better dishes I have had in NYC is the bowl of lima bean stew with sausage at Polona, a dive on First Avenue around 5th street. It costs around $3. I enjoy it more than anything I have ever had at Bar Masa......

I asked one of my just returned from Japan friends about this. Her points are as follows: 1. Sushi is generally better in Tokyo than NYC and you can get very good sushi in Tokyo for $50 if you know where to go (meaning one of your friends takes you to a place they know) 2. The high end places in Tokyo that are accesable to normal people are generally around $200 for sushi. She counts herself as a normal person, Waseda degree and Japanese passport notwithstanding. 3. There are more expensive places in Tokyo for sushi that can go way over $200 but they are not accesable to normal people; they operate as "clubs", you have to be a member. It may be more fair to compare Masa to this kind of place. 4. Non-Japanese food in Tokyo is quite expensive; you can expect something like Jean Georges to be double the price in Tokyo as compared to NYC. Given some of the things on the menu at Masa, like the caviar, truffles and foie gras, Masa might be priced more like a non-Japanese restaurant in Tokyo. I also had dinner on Friday (at Eleven Madison Park) with another friend, who is Japanese-American and who has lived in Tokyo for the last 4 years. Her comment was that her lunch costs her $15 every day(!!!) and every place in Tokyo seems expensive to her. She's an ex-pat with a company paid for 2 bedroom apartment..... I think the "club" thing may be hiding things in Tokyo. There is at least one similar example in NYC. The Nippon Club on West 57th operates a private, member only dining room and I've been told by people who have eaten there that it is one of the better high end Japanese restaurants in town. The Nippon Club FYI is an exclusive business club dating all the way back to 1905, and it occupies 7 floors of a high rise. Anyone know a member?

The whole argument breaks down right there. The foie gras supplement at Per Se is $25, and we've no reason to think Masa is allocating more money to the foie gras than Keller does; indeed, he is probably allocating a lot less, given the relative emphasis of the two restaurants. Here's one site that shows you can get an ounce of black truffles for $26. You can also spend more or less than that, depending on the source. I suspect Masa is serving each customer less than a full ounce, and he surely gets his truffles more cheaply than I could find in a quickie google search. That leaves the caviar. At Petrossian, a single serving of Sevruga is $60, but that's the retail price for a dish where the caviar is central to the presentation. I don't think anyone has said which species of caviar Masa is serving, but even if it's Sevruga, his cost is probably a whole lot less than $60. (He could be serving American caviar, which costs a fraction of Sevruga.) Mind you, it's mathematically possible to spend $150 per customer on caviar, truffles, and foie gras. Heck, you could spend hundreds on the caviar all by itself. But nothing stated in any of the available reviews suggests Masa is doing this, and I think it's highly unlikely. ← I had dinner fairly recently at ADNY, they get much more than $26 as a supplement per dish for the truffles. If you want more info, I put a number of postings on the ADNY thread. Since ADNY and Masa are both NYT Four Stars, I assume they use similar quality truffles. Saying that Keller charges only $25 as a supplement for foie gras is not useful information unless you know what the substution is for: a $25 extra fee for foie gras as a substitute for a $3 bowl of rice means you really have a $28 foie gras dish. My guess is that Keller already allocated something like $25 of your money to whatever the foie gras is substuting for, that means you are really paying more like $50 for the foie gras. With respect to the cavier, again, ADNY charges very, very high prices for cavier and since Masa is a competing restaurant in price and rating and cavier is a featured part of the menu, I assume what Masa has is similar to ADNY: it had better be! Retail prices charged by a restaurant are what is on point because Masa charges retail and not wholesale prices. Every restauant has to allocate the diner's dollars to the various dishes. If we allocate $50 to the Fugu (which seems quite reasonable), and $150 to caviar, foie gras and a number of complex and expensive cooked dishes (including things like uni), that leaves only $150 for the sushi. Even if you say the Fugu costs $25 (in the form of what a restautant serves you) and the caviar/foie gras/truffles and complex cooked dishes cost only $100 (which seems much too low), that would leave only $225 for sushi and $225 is not alot for sushi. I can walk into a place like Sushi Seki and spend $225 no problem, I could probably hit $400 at Kuruma if I were hungry and crazy. There is a problem at Masa: the price isn't high enough to cover both a sizable high quality sushi meal AND high quality fugu/caviar/ foie gras/truffles. Either Masa is a great bargin compared to ADNY and Kuruma or the components Masa serves are not as good as what places like ADNY and Kuruma serve.

The prices that Bar Masa is charging for Sushi are high enough so that there shouldn't be much of a drop off in qualtity from Masa. The bar charges $10 for decent but not great Toro and $18 for a good, regular sized tuna avacado roll. You order 15 pieces ala carte at Bar Masa, you hit $100+, that puts you in a more expensive catagory than a place like Sushi Seki which has better sushi (but less decor). More to the point, there is a budget problem with Masa. Assume they are charging $350 these days. At least $150 has to be allocated to the caviar, truffles and foie gras. That leaves at most $200 for sushi and fugu. That really isn't very much. The fugu alone is going to run $50. So, Masa has at most $150 to work with on the sushi. That's not a big budget. It's probably about $7 a piece, perhaps $10 at most. Several high end sushi places in Manhattan, and Bar Masa as well, charge those sorts of prices in their chef's selections. The budget Masa has to work with in Masa for sushi is only slightly larger than what they charge for sushi in Bar Masa, that means either the sushi in Masa is pretty similar to what they serve in Bar Masa or Bar Masa is overpriced. More to the point, no one Japanese I know thinks Masa is a four star restaurant. I think Masa is a package deal place designed to impress people who like labels, my guess is that while the components of that package may be good, they are not the best, at least not when it comes to the sushi. If it were the best sushi, than Masa has been able to figure out how to deliver better sushi than say Kuruma for less money, doubtful given the kind of operating costs Masa seems to have. I've eaten four times at Bar Masa, this Thursday was the best of the lot. They once served me plain bad tempura, I make better at home! I like the sake at Bar Masa, and feel it is fairly priced and well selected. I live near Time Warner, that is why I keep going back. I think I will go to Masa for my birthday, so stay tuned!

I've never had Fugu, but my Japanese friends tell me it doesn't really have much flavor and is more of a texture experience. Other places in Manhattan serve it, and my guess is that none of us can distinguish the fugu at say Sugiyama from Masa. The foie gras can be obtained at other Manhattan restaurants as well, and we've already covered cavier. If all Masa is offering for $350 is a package deal of fugu, foie gras, cavier, some mixed cooked food and good sushi, I'm not sure why it gets four stars. For four stars, the sushi must be significantly better than what they serve at a high price in Bar Masa. I really have to try the place. BTW, at 8:00 on a Thursday night Bar Masa and its tables was about 50% full, which I do not take as a good sign for something directly connected to a four star place. For example, I bet Nougatine at Jen-George was 100% booked during the same time period. My regular Japanese food dining friend is coming back from a three week stay in Tokyo and she has been eating up a storm---she owes me a high end dinner in Manhattan. BTW, she thinks the sushi fish in better places in Tokyo is better than anything she has had in Manhattan. As a reference point, she is Japanese, born and raised in Tokyo and attended Waseda.

Remember, the high price of dinner is not just due to the fish. The menu at Masa includes foie gras and plenty of caviar, both items that incur massive supplements on most NY menus. ← But at least based on the NYT review, it's 75% sushi in the meal. And in any case, caviar is nice and all, but I can walk into the cafe at Petrossian and get very good cavier without a reservation. Masa can't make a reputation based on cavier service.

Had a snack at Bar Masa tonight (it's now the fourth time I've eaten there). The sake as usual was first class. The ala carte sushi was good, but expensive. It's priced somewhat higher than say Sushi Seki (my current high end place) and it's not as good. One of these days, I'll do the $500 thing at Masa. Still, I've got to wonder why the $10 piece of ala carte toro they have in the bar is good, but not that good and I've had better for the money in NYC. Is the fish in the $500 deal that much better?

Ate in the cafe yesterday. Only slightly overpriced and not bad. Mixed salami was good, salad was good, cheese was very good. Tiramisu was OK. Sevice is quick but annoying, if you want something you have to track someone down and no refills are possible on things like tea, interesting given they are charging white tablecloth prices.

I have no doubt that Sushi varies greatly in quality. But Masa is only partly a sushi place. In fact, the thing I found most surprising about Bruni's Masa review is that he viewed it basically as a sushi place. That makes me wonder about the review. Given a Masa sized budget , on the order of $200-250 on the sushi, and advance warning, there are a number of places in Manhattan that should be capable of turning out equallu quality sushi. Kurma would be an obvious example, and given Kurma's prices, perhaps they don't need advance warning. I would be curious to know if sushi at Masa is better than Kurma. They charge roughly the same. Compared to say Sugiyama, where the sushi is minimal and the cooked food is the point, I wonder what is going on. Has Masa changed its tack and become more of a sushi place? Why didn't Bruni talk more about the cooked food, which is where the chef's skills should really show.