Todd36

Which course didn't you like? The cheese they gave us was I think a cow's milk cheese from California. It was Ok, nothing special. I can buy any one of a number of things that are more interesting at Murry's. The three other people in my party plain didn't like it (my reaction against it wasn't so strong). Also, having just one cheese seemed a little off for a place of this level and they didn't serve butter with the cheese, which is the way I like it (but bad for my waistline). ADNY wheels out this cheese cart with about 25 cheeses and you get to pick I think three. It's a different level. Don't get me wrong, Per Se is a fine restaurant. But it didn't excite me to the levels I think a four star should, and there were enough flaws and cases where lower rated restaurants offered a better course to make me wonder. I'm also noting that a couple of other people on this thread are also saying it was good, but not quite there, which makes my think my opinion is not alone.

The service we got was fine, just not quite impeccable. Today is brunch at Nougatine, I'll see how that is, since Per Se is fresh in my mind.

It's a four star NYT restaurant, there are I think six of those in New York, out of something like 10,000 restautants. It's also rather expensive. It should be held to the highest standard. The room is very pleasent. The tables are widely spaced. The service is fine, but not exceptional. We had to shout to get someone's attention to talk about wine. I think they were slightly put off by one of our party wearing a not well ironed shirt with a not well matching tie and jacket, probably figuring he (and we) were poor country bumpkins. He's a trader at Goldman, which should be their core audience (don't judge people by their appearance!!!) It was a late night reservation, and they seemed rushed. Bread did not appear until well into the meal. Any one of a number of restaurants in NY have equal or better service. In terms of the room itself, yes, its nice. Danube is more comfortable and romantic and the view is much better at Asiante elsewhere in Time Warner (but the one time I ate there the food was not great). Neither the service nor the room nor the view are strong enough to boost the rating. That leaves the food. I admit I eat out a lot. Too much I should say. I don't eat out in high end fine dining all that much, they don't pay me enough!!! Whatever the price range of a restaurant, I have to balance the food against its competition. Sugiyama does better cooked food than say Nobu, in roughly the same price range. Per Se did similar food, perhaps slightly better, to Danube at twice the price. The whole point in thinking about restaurants is thinking about what their food is like as compared to their competitors. The chocolate mousee at La Vealu D'or, a way out of its prime place (that I liked) was better than Per Se, in a $27 prix fix no less. Not to mention that they did a better job toasting their bread than Per Se did toasting their brioche. The food overall at Per Se is significantly better BTW, but its also about 6 times the price, and I'm not sure how that fits in the price/value equation. If I don't compare a restaurant to others, I might as well save money and only eat in McDonald's, so I will never know what better food is. I enjoyed my experience at Per Se, but I've had more enjoyable meals elsewhere in NYC. Jean Georges, Danube, Sugiyama, ADNY were all more enjoyable for me, either because of the service, food, price or the atmosphere. I'll go back to Per Se at some point. And offering Beck's Light and such a weak selection of port and maderia makes me wonder. Much better port and maderia last time I was at Balthazar.

Vegetarian Chopped Liver is usually made with string beans, walnuts and eggs. It's a traditional Jewish dish, its parve so it could be served with a dairy meal.

Yes, it's subjective. My problem with that dish is that the sauce was all I could taste, cavier is a taste and texture experience and that was missing and the oyster seemed like nothing, reduced to a texture experience only. So I'm left with a nice sauce. If one likes oysters, the one I had the night before at Sugiyama was better, at least in my opinion. I could taste it was an oyster. I would argue that the dish itself is fundemently flawed in design, and if that is one of his best and most popular dishes, well, I guess I'm odd. The whole point in a fine oyster is the flavor. I don't bury mine under horseradish or cocktail sauce, I want to taste an oyster. Putting an oyster in such a sauce removes the flavor and the point of good qualtity oysters (they were I think Kumomotos or a similar pacific oyster). The egg/truffle thing at ADNY is much, much better if you like signature starters. On the other hand, I did like the lamb at Per Se better than I liked the veal at ADNY. My guideline on such things is the $3 bowl of lima bean stew at Polana at first and third. It varies, but on good days it tastes very good and some of the stuff at Per Se wasn't crossing that threshold. It was a good meal, but at $205 with the supplement I expect distinct flavors of fresh vegetables (which were completly missing in the meal) and interesting sauces that complement the meat and fish. Per Se didn't deliver as much as I would have expected.

There were four of us at dinner, two of whom are not big drinkers, so we got a bottle of red and a bottle of white at $115 a piece, and I got a seperate glass for my foie gras. The glass was very good. The two bottles were both good, but I guess we needed to go way up there for real impact. The white we had at ADNY seemed better, in roughly in the same price range. The wine advice at ADNY seemed stronger. Our total bill was around $1200 for four, which isn't bad. Note a club soda costs an inexplicable $6. There are a couple of strange things on the beverage list that make me wonder. The beer list starts with Beck's Light!!!! Even having a light beer strikes me as odd. The rest of the beer list was a little odd, with special high end bottles of Chimney, but nothing like Anchor Steam. Looked to me like it was selected by someone who doesn't know beer. Next was that they only offer a couple of maderias and the port list is limited. Both of those are surprises in a place of this calibre. Jean Georges has mountains of both. Heck, Eleven Madison Park is stronger. None of the four of us had much luck distinguishing the two butters, except to note that one was greasier. I can buy much better Czch butter at Agata. It was a good meal and I would go there again, don't get me wrong. But it wasn't a huge, high impact meal. And the lack of good, fresh vegtables was surprising.

There are places in both Chinatown and Koreatown that make fresh white noodles, not excatly the same as Udon. In any case, their fresh noodles don't seem to be better than pre-packed noodles, based on my experience. I'm not aware of any restaurant that makes fresh Japanese type Udon noodles in NYC. Places like JAS Mart carry "fresh" udon, some made in Japan and some made in US.

There is this expectation by many of expecting perfection in an area which is still governed by subjective taste. My biggest disappointments have generally been at three star (Michelin) restaurants. On the whole, I've left wondering if it wasn't my fault for not understanding the food or being prepared to get the most out of the particular restaurant. Well, perhaps that was not true in the absolute beginning, but as time went on I began to appreciate food on a more abstract level. I had several disappointing dishes at Per Se, but left the restaurant very enthusiastic about my overall meal and feel Per Se is an obvious candidate for Michelin's highest rating. The strong points for us were the simplest appearing dishes such as the caviar with califlower puree. The least effective dishes were the dishes with meat or fish and accompanying garnishes or what appear to be scaled down versions of main courses. We both agreed that in spite of a certain finesse, we preferred the intensity of the way Daniel prepares those kinds of dishes for a tasting menu. Then again, Daniel has had a great influence on our tastes so I can't discount the potential subjectivity involved. ← The greens in the salad I had at Cafe Gray last weekend were of much higher quality than what Per Se served. That alone gave me thoughts. A $9 ala carte salad beats a $175 prix fix? Anyway, more details. The cheese puff. Not as good as Eleven Madison Park!!! A house smoked salmon canape, like a small cone hand roll. Very good, some of the best salmon I have ever had. Oysters with cavier in a rich sauce, might have been bernese now that I think about it. Tasted good, but the cavier didn't seem to taste like much, and the oysters were masked by that good, but rich sauce. Foie Gras Pate with Brioche and black truffle. The pate was good, but not remarkable. The brioche was too dry. Nice truffles. This added $30 the price. Friend had a salad instead, which was good but not what I expect in this price range. The bread was OK, but not special. Two kinds of butter, neither of which was special. A fish course. Forgot what kind, but it was a white fish, fairly firm, might have been snapper. It was good, but not remarkable. Lobster cooked in butter. This was very good. Lamb round. This was quite good. Vegetables were very good, but not to the level of ADNY. The cheese was nothing special, no choice, just give you one kind. The bread with the cheese was fantastic though. These were nut breads. Various sobets and mouses, none of them special. The mousse last week at La Veau'dor was better!!! In a $27 prix fix! End analysis. It was good, with nothing below two stars. But not much had real impact, seemed remarkable, or can still be tasted in my mouth, just the salmon and the cheese course bread. To me, the food at Danube seems to be similar, except that Per Se uses some more expensive ingredents (the truffles, cavier etc) at around twice the price. Part of the problem may be that I'm eating out too much. In the last six months or so, I've eaten at Danube, Nougatine, Sugiyama, ADNY, Cafe Gray, several high end sushi places, some good places in Charleston (Hominy Grill was good!!!)......

Had dinner tonight at Per Se, party of four, all friends. It was good, ADNY was better. Desserts and cheese were both weak at Per Se, vegetables were better at ADNY. Three out of four of us would not eat the cheese course. The only big impact dish at ADNY was the salmon wrap starter. Cheese puff starter is better at Eleven Madison Park. The lamb course at Per Se is very good, better than the veal at ADNY, but the side vegetables at ADNY are better. Per Se's cavier had little flavor for some odd reason, it didn't pop on my tongue. I would say Per Se is a strong three star and doesn't deserve its reputation. I am sure people will start disagreeing now.

Well, when the coffee at Cafe Gray arrived on a silver tray with a glass of water, the first thought that came to mind was "finally, something from Vienna!!" And I wouldn't say "warning, we use many asian spices in our cuisine", I would say "better like five spice powder." Much as I liked it. I had dinner at Sugiyama tonight, and that had less Asian spices than what Cafe Gray served. I suppose that decor doesn't have to match the food, but it usually does. What would your reaction be if we reversed say Per Se and Decibel? Would Per Se's food taste as good in a dark, dank basement with obvious Japanese dive bar overtones? Would Decibel's microwaived bar snacks taste better at Per Se's space. Probably..........We depend on the visuals to give us clues (or if you want to more technical, signals) as to what kind of food to expect. In any case, Cafe Gray is a fine place, but the spicing is inconsistent with what you get. I didn't expect (nor would any rational person not familar with Kunz) my short ribs with creamy grits to taste like Chinese 5 spice powder. And yes, if a restaurant has a really unfamilar way of doing something, it would nice if someone told you before you ordered. We don't realize how much we depend on dishes being fairly standard, based on very short menu descriptions. For example, how would you feel if you ordered roast chicken, expecting a nice crispy skin, and what you got was a skinless chicken. covered with red Tandori spices? Both are roast chicken....

Quote from their entry on OpenTable "Modern French cuisine with Asian influences and an Eastern European flair: Cafe Gray is an upscale cafe with panoramic views of Central Park from Chef Gray Kunz, creator of the acclaimed New York Times 4-star rated Lespinasse." I assume that Cafe Gray's marketing people wrote that. The decor just screams Vienna and art novo. If my memory serves, before it opened, it was always described as an eastern euro cafe. That's why I found the strong Asian spicing odd. The menu gives no indication of Asian spicing and neither does the decor. It tastes good mind you.

It should be Masa's standard practice to ask what their customers don't eat upon arrival, it is a chef's choice kind of place which means they control what you get, you do not. Sugiyama always seems to ask.

Serving a glass of water with the cup of coffee on a straight out of Vienna tray fits the decor, as does the floor length aprons of many of the front of the house staff. It's not that I mind Asian flavors, it's that nothing on the menu prepares you for them. Even the salad dressing is Asian. I don't expect hot rolls with raspberry sauce ala Vienna, but it would be nice to make it clear you had better like Chinese five spice powder. Incongerous flavors that are not consistent with ones' expectations. I would have to say there is more direct Asian style in the spicing than in any other quasi-french place in NYC that I have been to, and this was in four out of four dishes.

Interesting report, Todd. It sounds like you've been to Vienna. I have not (unless going from one train station to another on the way from Italy to Hungary counts, and I don't think it does). I take it Asian-influenced fusion cuisine is uncommon in Viennese cafes nowadays? The reason I ask is that the way someone who hasn't been to a place or has been there but not recently thinks about the food there may be different from how it is now. I used to find it odd that Malaysian restaurants in New York were serving Tom Yam soup, which is a typical Thai soup. Tom Yam soup was never considered part of Malaysian cuisine in the 1970s, but now, it's served all over the place in Malaysia, so Malaysian restaurants in foreign countries have followed suit. ← I spent a week in Vienna in about 1998. Many of the cafes there are never changing. It's a traditional kind of place. I have strong doubts Asian fusion cusine has made it into a typical cafe. Some of the places I went to boasted they had the same furniture in the 1848 "revolution." Places like the Hotel Sacher, as in Sachertorte, are still there. People seem to expect that sort of thing in Vienna. One odd touch at Cafe Gray is the glass of water served on the tray with your coffee, that is classic Vienna coffehouse.

Nobu. Low grade sushi and iffy cooked food. And I've been told by someone who used to work in their business office that they order the lower grades of fish offered by their suppliers. And I've eaten there a bunch of times (it's near my office). A friend of mine would add Le Cirque, which I guess is not now an option.

Had lunch there today. Service was pretty good, don't know if we were lucky or it's improved. I had the house salad, which was first rate, some microgreens, strips of root vegetables and leaf lettuce. Tasted like just picked, which is clearly impossible. Main was the short ribs with grits. Very good, but those weren't grits, at least as I know them (and I ate at Hominy Grill in Charleston last month). Very, very rich grits with lots of dairy products I think. The flavors are strongly Asian, Chinese/Thai/Vietnamese, not Japanese. Dessert was cheesecake, which turned out to be a very good and light blueberry thing, almost custard like. My three courses were about $50, which is pricy for lunch. My friend had the prix fix for I think about $46. A thin grilled piece of white fish to start, covered with a vegtable dice (pepper I think) and pomegrante seeds, which were memorable. Again, strong asian flavor (friend is Japanese, says flavir is not Japanese). Main was vension, which was small strips cooked quite though, and covered with seseme seeds. Reminded me of bo luc lac, Vietnamiese stir fried beef, and I couldn't tell it was vension. My least favoriet dish. Dessert was a very good almond cake. I thought overall it was in the two to three star range. It is a little pricey. The salad was four stars, the desserts were three star, rest was two to three star range, very good but not remarkable. And maybe too much Asian flavor for what is supposed to be a cafe in Vienna. I think the decor is fine. It's quasi art novo, vintage 1910. It could be better done, but the concept is sound. The frosted glass for example is a copy of Lacique I think, for a real and much better example, look at the upper floor windows at Henry Bendel on 5th Ave. The same thing with the early vintage light bulbs, the newspaper rack in the bar (same as Neue Gallary's cafe) and the overall use of shapes.

I've eaten at Eleven Madison Park three times in the last three months. One dinner was fine, restaurant week dinner was Ok, but not two stars, and the last dinner was pretty good. I've eaten there a few more times in the past. I think its a little inconsistant at Eleven Madison Park, and I view it as "Jean Georges" light, meaning its serving a New American/French menu that is a bit similar in concept to Jean Georges, at half the price, and its not as good as Jean Georges. The roughly $20 prix fix lunch at Nougatine (Jean Georges cheaper part) is better done than the restaurant week special at Eleven Madison Park. That being said, Veau D'Or is a very different animal than Eleven Madison Park. For one thing, its about half the price, which puts it real close to restaurant week prices and the food was better than Eleven Madison Park's restaurant week dinner. It doesn't have the same level of service or atmosphere and the cooking is not modern. But the food is good, and well worth the money, which is the topic of this thread.

Had dinner there tonight. Interesting. It's an old room, but not quite as old and dusty as I would have thought. It's fairly bright and looks clean. The owner is very old, and his mobility is suffering. There is also a waiter, French, who was working at La Carvalle when it closed. Plus one bus boy/assistant. They have a coat check room, but they do use some tables for business. The phone is cordless and they have a modern adding machine, so it's not quite a total time warp. The chef has been there 13 years and I was told he is Dominican. It's a prix fix system with variable prices based on the main, you get to choose the first course and dessert (with some options costing extra). The wine was a 2001 Brouilly that was decent, at $28, and probably retailed for perhaps $12-14. It was a Prosper-Maufoox, a more obscure producer, bottled by the maker. The wine list is odd, it just gives a type and a price "Brouilly $28", for all but the more expensive wines. I think they buy what they think is good, and exactly what you get varies. It's like a local restaurant in France. Bread had been cut into slices and then toasted, it was good, as was the butter. The $29 dinner. Cream of Asparagus soup, Duck with Cherry Sauce and Oeufs a la Neige (floating eggs) for dessert. The soup was first rate, with a nice flavor. The duck was quite good, crispy skin with a not very sweet cherry sauce on the side, served over wild rice with a side of creamed spinach. The duck was pretty juicy and significantly better than average. The dessertt was good. The $27 dinner. House pate, which was significantly better than average. Beef Bourguignonne, served with noodles and fresh carrots (which were alas cold). Noodles were properly cooked, and well sprinkled with cheese. Beef was crispy on the outside (almost black in fact), and tender on the inside. Sauce was quite good and loaded with a mismash of mushrooms. This was a special of the night. Dessert was chocolate mousse, exactly rich enough and with a good flavor. The food is pretty good, better than average. And assuming you want a three course meal, the pricing is not much more than many local diners!!! My restaurant week dinner at 11 Madison Park was worse. I would say its somewhere between one and two stars, based on what we ate. It's a good value for the money. Once you back out the firsts and desserts, the mains are really in the $15-20 range. You have to be the patient type, the food came fairly quickly, but this is not a place with fawning service and I am sure if the owner gets mad at you, out you go. I noticed he checks every check. You have to be willing to accept things the way they do it. With tip and two expressos (at $3 each), total was $115 with a slightly better than 15% tip. For dinner for two for pretty decent food, I would say that is good. I intend to eat there again.

Anyone been lately? I was very happy there with my last experience (about 6 months ago) and am planning to take a friend there this week. Seems better than Bouley to me. Any views?

So it sounds like if I want to be a consumer and lazy, I get the Solis and if I want to spend more time I get Miss Silvia. It's not an obvious choice. Sweet Maria's (which sells both) seems to like both.

What's your second choice? The temp control feature in the SL-90 isn't useful?

Any views on the Solis SL-90 as compared to a Miss Silivia?

That's how we make them at work - we make a strudel-stretch dough - we actually have a 'knish table' on which we strech the dough as thin as possible - lay down a row of filling on one end and roll the whole thing up. Then using the side of my hand, cut through the dough, making individual knishes and pretty much closing them up on both sides (if we left them open, the filling would go flying out while baking). This is the only way I've seen knishes made here, but outside of Winnipeg I've never seen them like this. I wonder if this is a Polish knish vs. a ... german, russian, etc. knish? ←

I think that "real" knishes look like sections cut from strudel. What I mean is no dough on the short ends, and the top is curved. Like the strudel sold by Zabar's. My grandmother used to make kasha and potato knishes this way, and her dough was similar to strudel dough. There was a place on Coney Island that used to make them this way, although the health department closed them down about 25 years ago. My grandparents were of the opinion that you can't get a decent knish in NY, and they've thought that for about 50 years. They think Yonah Schimmal might have been good before WWII. I think Katz's has a decent round knish. I think the square kind that looks fried is not good. I'm generally disappointed with knishes. I suspect that knishes evolved from some sort of strudel, as a way to use leftover kasha or potatos, and turn them into something portable. A sweet knish is basically strudel.

Farro is a relative of wheat and tastes pretty good to me. It's usually processed to some extent, to make it semi-pearled. It's a hot current fad. Some people who can't eat wheat because of allegeries can eat farro. Farro is supposed to be ancient, and an ancester of modern wheat. There is some arguement about that; if you Google "Farro" all sorts of contradictory material comes up. Some people say farro and spelt are the same thing, some people disagree. Part of the problem is that "farro" just means "wheat" in Latin, it doesn't identify a particular type, so saying the Romans ate "farro" is meaningless. "Flour" comes from the same root as "farro." If you cooked semi-pearled ordinary wheat berries, I think you'd get something similar to farro. Most small whole grains when cooked and when you add extra ingredents taste fairly similar. Cooked semi-pearled barley for example isn't all that different in my opinion from farro (I've made both). Both chewy and a little nutty. Farro is hard to grow, which is why is was replaced by modern wheat a very long time ago (not a modern change related to mechanical farming).