jhlurie

A product a number of us enjoyed at the recent Big Apple Barbecue Block Party fits this topic: the Balducci's Sparkling French Lemonade Great stuff--very light and refreshing. The Fentiman's Victorian Lemonade is probably a bit more exotic, but this is still very solid. Only four ingredients too: Carbonated water, beet sugar, citric acid and natural lemon flavor.

It's not quite the same as rolling out of bed and eating. The meat came from different places. Some was carted in by the vendors. Some was bought locally, but by someone who knows what they are doing (people who work for Danny Meyer). The fat debate is interesting, of course. Some like it, some don't. I don't suppose this particuar debate is any different in NY than, lets say, if you put a person from Missouri and a person in Texas in the same room and ask them to debate it. The sides, sadly, were very neglected at this affair. Not a single piece of cornbread as far as I saw. No greens. Not even potatoes. Some beans, some slaw... that's it--probably because they either travel well or are easy to make here. The problem with that attitude is that it risks feeding the concept that New Yorkers shouldn't even bother with BBQ. It's potentially insulting to both regions--that it's either "too common" for NY (an insult against the midwest and south), or that NYers should feel ashamed for having the balls to admit that they care about it (an insult against NY). And frankly, we're a very small percentage of urban(e) New York.

Ah, as you've certainly noticed more Gluttony! * * * Be sure to check The Daily Gullet home page daily for new articles (most every weekday), hot topics, site announcements, and more.

I think it's probably a regional thing. I think they've been writing "BBQ" in Texas for a long, long time. Since it is fairly easy to understand how "BBQ" came from "barbecue" (with the "Q" representing the last syllable") my guess is that "barbeque" came from "BBQ." So your theory isn't that different from one I discussed earlier. Barbecue-->BBQ-->Barbeque Then again our impression that "I think they've been writing 'BBQ' in Texas for a long, long time" may in fact just be our impression. It may be smoke and mirrors, just like the good old Ranch BQ explanation. Do we really know how long that story has existed? Because the use of "BBQ" might not predate it by all that much--it only takes about a generation or so for people to completely mythologize ANYTHING.

Right. Nice shirt. We could almost edit that shot and add a comic-strip like thought balloon for you. Something like "Damn. I left the oven on." or maybe "Paul! If I jump up and down will you toss me some of that meat!" Welcome to eGullet, by the way. Your secret decoder ring is in the mail.

Okay, a bit more. The guy on the previous page I posed links to another: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA95/dove/history.html Here's the explantion of various naming theories there: EDIT - Sam's linked site seems to be a lot more succinct, and has some detail this one doesn't about the Caribbean connection. It's still not clear where and when the "que" spelling and "BBQ" shortening developed (especially since these sources all call the French "barbe a queue" explanation bullshit). I briefly thought I found some evidence that linked it back to at least the 1940s, but it turned out to be bogus. Again, I'm thinking it could really be a recent development--and maybe tied to the gradual de-barbecueization of barbecue, so to speak.

The guy on this page claims that "common assumption" is that the word is from... you guessed it... the FRENCH, who of course invented everything having to do with food. It mentions that "barbe-a-que" means "from snout to tail". http://www.behelp.com/route50/places/barbeque.htm Can anyone verify?

Right. And it's my contention that this change in the language really took place within the lifetime of most of us here--although maybe in different amounts depending on your region. Somewhere in the marketing campaigns of Kingsford, perhaps, or in the early marketing campaigns of the gas grill people this crept in. I'm favoring the Kingsford people (although that probably means that it was being used as early as the 1950s and just didn't penetrate until the 1970s) because I see charcoal briquette use as the direct simulation of real barbecue, whereas the gas grills (mostly) just dumped the pretense. And of course, "BBQ" is just a shortening--possibly for ad copy. I'm thinking that the alternate spelling of "barbeque" might have even followed "BBQ".

Braai? Well I have no idea how the South Africans got it, but "BBQ"--what a lot of the world thinks of when they think of backyard grilling--is certainly a bastardization of "barbecue" (with a "c" not a "q"), and not the other way around. The story of the Texas ranch owned by a guy with the initials "BQ"--who as many ranchers do had their product referred to by the brand put on his cattle--in this case a bar under the letters "BQ"--is patently bullshit, but it's not clear exactly where and when the story appeared. Is it just a tall tale to explain the different spellings? Part of a comedy routine? Something used in ad copy somewhere in the 1950's or 60's which has become apparent "history"? Who knows. I'm thinking of the history of backyard grilling. When I was a VERY young kid, very few people had gas grills--that movement really started about 15-20 years ago. It was the old charcoal briquette thing, over a very temporary appliance meant, mostly, to hold the briquettes. That style of "BBQ" probably existed for half a century before the big propane monsters took over in, at least, America's backyards. And that use of charcoal briquettes, as was mentioned by the panel, was actually an invention of Henry Ford. Ford started a product line in Kingsford, Michigan called "Ford Charcoal Briquettes"--which later became the still existing "Kingsford Charcoal Briquettes"--which even today still exists as a going concern here in the U.S. The point of the charcoal briquettes was originally a way for Ford to recycle the scrap wood used in the bodies of his cars. But the rationale in people buying them was probably just because it was a simulation of the "real thing"--cooking food over hickory or mesquite wood and capturing the smoke. And it was only MUCH later that people started using gas to cook--completely displacing the closer simulation of the "real thing".

Ed Wilson of NBC must be an idiot if he told Rocco that. Either that, or he was just trying to shut up some whining about how bad NBC let him look on "The Restaurant". Whenever Rocco's on a talk show I know what I will see. He will leer at some woman. There may be some inappropriate touching. He will say something stupid, at least once. He will talk about Mama's meatballs in big rounded tones, and since she's usually there waiting in the wings usually really ham it up. In recent appearances he will hawk his cookware. Yawn. Great guest. Yeah, he will make a wonderful talk show host. EDIT - BTW: Apparently Ed Wilson is no longer at NBC. Oh well. Now apparently he's FOX's point man on "affiliate relations, advertising sales, legal, broadcast standards". Can that get Rocco a FOX show? Or just guest appearances on "Malcom in the Middle"?

Are you cooking at a relatively low temperature, for a long time, and capturing/trapping smoke into what you are cooking?

No, the answer given was more that overall, it was a mixed effect in that it was good if it brought real BBQ (rather than "grilling" to people's attention), but bad in that it marginalized BBQ into camps--that certain styles were rewarded more than others (read: "the white styles"--remember, this question was answered about 90% by Mr. Elie), because literally "falling off the bone" is seen as a bad thing in BBQ competition, and the down-home types tend to make it that way because it's better eating, even if it doesn't look as pretty.

Okay, a small treat for those so inclined. We don't allow animated images in-line with eGullet posts, so I've constructed this as a seperate link rather than shoving it in everyone's face whenever they load this page: Cutting brisket at the Salt Lick booth: A photo essay, in motion.

A Caribbean native connection was mentioned as the probable origin of the word "barbecue". This was in response to the woman from Smoki O's.

Back home now. I'll take a slightly different tact from what's up already and start with the color commentary, and slide into the food later on. It's definitely is a different experience, walking up to the back, flashing your eGullet credentials, and getting to schmooze with the pit-master. And when you are with master schmoozer Jason Perlow, it takes on an entirely different complexion. These guys take their work seriously, and to a man, they seem to appreciate the fact that eGullet seems to take their work seriously too. The one sour note was, while trying to get a nice shot of Big Bob Gibson's Pork Shoulders, the big dog comes down the aisle, mowing poor web journalists down like wheat at harvest-time. "NBC. Everybody move. Coming through. NBC!" People's heads pop up, like on those little dolls with springs for necks. Folks waiting on line in front turn away for a moment and start pulling out hairbrushes. The pit-master runs over to the smoker and starts fiddling around--maybe to make it look a little "smokier" or something. People inside the booth start bumping into each other, their eyes a little wild. They needn't have worried so much. It looked like a 2nd unit of some type--just a film crew. Tom Brokaw wasn't exactly sidling up asking for a sandwich. In the (relative) quiet of the back end, you get a nice look at the personalities involved too--or at least some small moments from them. Ed Mitchell, turning his back on the throngs waiting to sample his wares and taking a moment--just a moment--to lean against a table, both palms flat, and take a deep breath. Jason catches his eye, Ed walks over, and I get introduced. After the usual pleasantries, referring back to that moment of weariness, and to the exhausted look in his eyes, I quip "you about ready to go home yet?" It didn't rate more than a chuckle, but I felt lucky to get that. And a sandwich made by Ed's own hands. Even wackier is watching Danny Meyer sneak up behind Jason Perlow, wrap an arm around his shoulder, and complain "why aren't you getting your ass over to the seminar". Ed's sandwichs still in hand, we race towards the other end of the park, only to find that as is true of good BBQ, you have to wait a bit for good BBQ discussion as well. The panel discussion was great, and I won't belabor it here, except to say that I have new respect for a friend of eGullet—Robb Walsh—and his skill at steering an event like this. Every panelist had something worthwhile to say, but Robb was definitely the center. Did I mention the situation with the Pig Snoot people? No? Okay, well apparently they ran out of snoot REALLY early on, and by the time we arrived they'd closed up shop completely and were spread across the entire park—acting like the most joyful of tourists. These guys were having fun, I tell you—filling up the park benches behind Mitchell's place eating pulled pork, lying back in the grass in the main part of the park… even kicking back and listening intently to Mr. Walsh and friends during the seminar. They just looked happy to be there. A lot of eGulleteers were there, of course. Steven Shaw, looking like he hadn't slept in a week, perked up long enough to grunt "hi". Ellen Shapiro, his wife, just looked cold. I kept asking myself how she could survive the mountaintops of Tibet, and the windswept plains of Mongolia, and have trouble with a windy but fairly mild June day in New York City--but then again that's probably why God invented Polar Fleece. I didn't speak much to most of the others, short of a nod or a quick hello, but a nice clump of us were there. Sam Kinsey kept trying to brush the seed pods from the trees which were raining on us out of his hair, but it just kept going down his shirt instead. Mark Stevens looked somewhat hungry, but frankly I wasn't in the mood to give him any of my special Ed Mitchell sandwich. One thing you can be sure of in any park in Manhattan, especially these days, is that homeless people will be nearby. It was kind of odd in the park today—watching the no-longer young urban professionals cluster in the middle of the park, near the bandstand, while the homeless crept in and occupied the empty benches on the east and west sides of the park—on the east side kind of staring up at the people eating on the patio at Tabla, nodding to themselves a bit, and going back to sleep. Walking back after the seminar, at barely 4pm, you could already see how quickly things were winding down. Blue Smoke's people will still cranking out the Spare Ribs by the boatload, and NBC had finally abandoned Big Bob Gibson long enough for us to snatch some pictures, but at some point in the mid-afternoon the "Cue Pons" booth had closed, the crowds were already drastically reduced, and this time Ed Mitchell was sitting down, with his feet up and his hands behind his head. If he'd only had a longneck beer in his hand, it would have been the perfect picture of exhausted satisfaction. While B.S.ing a bit with the folks at K. C. Baron, a ragged-looking man comes shambling up the sidewalk with big white cardboard signs stuck to his front and back, yelling at the top of his lungs "Fuck Bush!" (the signs mention Iraq in small type, but the large print pretty much just says "Fuck Bush" again) Noticing me, he stops, gets a really serious look on his face, and with seeming complete sincerity asks me in a low but carrying voice "You. Hey you! Do you want to fuck Bush?" "He's not my type," is all I can think to answer. Later on, a few booths down, my new friend appears again and this time stops Jason—who's really more interested in trying to see if Bob Gibson's pitmaster can spare another minute to let him get some closer-in shots near the smoker. Afterwards, I'm sure we both felt terrible for being so apolitical, but damnit, we were still hungry. Of course, it's not like we didn't rake in pretty much everything, except the previously mentioned Pig Snoot. The standouts for me were the Sausages from The Salt Lick, the Burnt Ends from K. C. Baron, the Blue Smoke Spare Ribs, and of course Ed Mitchell's humble little sandwich. The Salt Lick Sausages were huge, plump almost to bursting, and seriously spicy. Basically these boys bit back. The Salt Lick Brisket was clean and simple, in a kind of brown gravy, but didn't really grab me. The folks at the booth were friendly and maybe a bit TOO enthusiastic to put together a nice spread of their products in front of the smoker for us to photograph, when in fact what we were REALLY trying to get was candid shots. We did get a nice series of them slicing up the brisket—close enough together in sequence that I'm going to fool around a bit later and see if I can make an Animated GIF from it. One thing I learned is that our noble founder managed to spend about a half hour jawing with the folks from K.C. Baron yesterday and the subject of Burnt Ends never even once came up. Now, my Dad has lived in K.C for the past several years, and I've gone visiting on occasion. I can't imagine talking about Kansas City BBQ for 2 minutes without mentioning Burnt Ends, much less a half hour. I remedied that situation the moment I realized that Jason didn't even really KNOW what Burnt Ends are (for those who don't know… basically they are the parts cut off the ends of the brisket when they trim it, and they are put back and smoked a SECOND time afterwards), and while he still seems to prefer the lean cuts, at least I've got his head going in the right direction. The Blue Smoke Ribs were just amazing—huge and meaty. Jason, who must have felt somewhat constrained when his wife was around yesterday, was in fine form tonight—picking a rib up by the end, waving at the world in general, and saying "Bam. Bam." (imitating the kid from the Flintstones, not Emeril). What can I say? He's a real food sophisticate. But basically, he was right. Unless we got particularly meaty examples, these were real primal. And someone else will probably have to confirm for me, but I believe they were probably just spice rubbed—and that's all they needed. You are going to get your hands pretty dirty picking up a hunk of meat like these no matter what… but to be spared the excess of some obnoxious sticky sauce is enough to make you want to cry. There's not much to say about the Mitchell sandwiches which hasn't already been said. I know there are some differences of opinion, and I come down on the positive side, but I can't summon anything more original to say other than "yum!". I didn't get to try all three of his sauce variations, but the spicy sauce was just fine with me. It's more vinegary than spicy really, but it gets the job done fine—the meat is the real star. Now as others have described, periodically you'd hit a piece of cracklins that was a bit much, but overall it really is necessary. One think which pissed me off all day was a reoccurring case of the hiccups. Can you imagine it? Sitting there working around the edges of an Ed Mitchell pulled Pork sandwich and starting to vibrate and choke? People looked at me like I had two heads or something. And this happened all day. At virtually every stop—although I covered it well most of the time. Slugging bottled water down like it was jello shots. A quick word on a few of the other things… the Memphis Championship Barbecue baby back ribs were the first thing I had, and I liked them quite a bit at the time. But really the Blue Smoke spare ribs just banished them from my mind when I later had that. Between the Salt Lick and K. C. Baron, the later had the better brisket, although as I said I really favored the Burnt Ends—so that might have been coloring my view of the rest of their 'wares as well. Big Bob Gibson's Pork shoulder was good, but didn't really hit the spot the way Mitchell's whole hog operation did. The beans at both Big Bob Gibson and Memphis Championship Barbecue were good, but I'd have to give a real edge to the boys from Vegas (the "Mephis" guys are actually located in Las Vegas and Illinois). I didn't really get to taste the Cole Slaw from The Salt Lick, but Ed Mitchell's slaw was just primo. In fact, while lingering in back of the booth, I overheard this nice lady begging Ed to sell her the slaw by itself—something he wasn't quite prepared to do, but he seemed to take the request as a compliment. Overall it was a great day.

Reporting live from the 3pm "cue" seminar. With an Ed Mitchell BBQ sandwich balanced on my lap, I'm trying to shift my attention to the seminar. It's tough.

Question: Has anyone tried "Milk and Hot Chocolate Pretz?" I'm intrigued by the idea.

Just had a C2. It's not a nightmare, as I'd feared, but I can definitely see the Perlovian description of "metallic" as being somewhat valid. We've gone over the sweetener issue ad naseum for weeks, so I won't again. Pepsi, with their "Edge" product should get their asses in gear already. Living in the NY/NJ area, this is Pepsico's own backyard. It's unseemly for the Atlanta behemoth's lackluster effort to be out here first. food4thought, it's a nice article, but I've moved it into this topic instead of it's own. You aren't saying anything we haven't already gone over here, although I appreciate the specific attention you've paid to explaining PKU.

Since we have plenty of existing generic topics on how expensive supermarkets can be, rather than merge this into them and lose a nice discussion, I've retitled this thread slightly to emphasize what seems to be a unique angle of mrsadm's argument--that the outrageous examples seem to center around saving a person a few minutes of labor. My own example? In my neighborhood Korean produce store -- Green Bell Peppers, Whole - .79 cents a pound. In my neighborhood Korean produce store -- Red Bell Peppers, Whole - $1.99 a pound. In my neighborhood Korean produce store -- Yellow Bell Peppers, Whole - $2.99 a pound. In my neighborhood Korean produce store -- Variety Pack of Peppers, Sliced - $4.99 a pound In the Pathmark supermarket next door -- Green Bell Peppers, Whole - $1.29 a pound. In the Pathmark supermarket next door -- Red Bell Peppers, Whole - $2.99 a pound. In the Pathmark supermarket next door -- Yellow Bell Peppers, Whole - $3.99 a pound. In the Pathmark supermarket next door -- Variety Pack of Peppers, Sliced - $6.99 a pound

So walking through my neighborhood Korean grocery (the much discussed Northern New Jersey landmark Han Ah Reum) I noticed a new endcap display with some Pocky-like snacks I'd never seen before. At 79 cents a box, I figured I couldn't go wrong. Dig the freaky artwork on those boxes! Haitai "Friend" is actually a fairly pleasant surprise. It's about the same taste profile as Mousse Pocky, and a fraction of the cost (Mousse Pocky, as a comparison, is about $2.50 in the same store for a similar portion). The Black/Chocolate Flavor is decent--not overwhelmingly sweet, with kind of a creamy Chocolate Mousse taste. The Orange Flavor is a step better. It's got a weird but effective taste combination--both buttery and slightly "floral". The White Flavor is the standout. It's far better, in my opinion, than White Mousse Pocky, and it's got an extremely rich, buttery taste, and one of the best "finishes" of any Pocky or Pocky-like cookie I've ever had. The "cookie" portion of all three flavors was fairly identical--a very neutral slightly fluffy (yet crispy) cookie, with maybe a miniscule amount of cocoa powder in it. Cookies, close up. The ingredient lists of all three cookies are pretty much identical, although the proportions seem to be different in the White variety (Skim Milk and Whole Milk Powder move to the head of the ingredient list with that variety). Basically, we've got: Cocoa Mass, Cocoa Powder, Cocoa Butter, White Sugar, Wheat Flour, Shortening, Skim Milk Powder and Whole Milk Powder. Check out the back of these boxes (well one of them... following is the back of "Orange"). I can't tell if you are supposed to send the box intact to a friend--with this backing to address it--or if you are simply supposed to cut this out and use it as a handy-dandy artsy post card. Maybe it's a cultural difference thing, but I can't imagine sending a cookie-based postcard to someone. Maybe you are simply supposed to cut them out and collect them. I don't know. Haitai "Friend", Orange Flavor - Back

ColaFan, I'd corrected myself already. Yes, it has Ace K. But a Splenda/Sunnett combo is pretty standard. The point was, it was minus Corn Syrup, Aspartame and even sugar alcohols like Sorbitol. To Jason: Yes, I've tried it (the Diet Rite Cola, I assume you meant). I was a bit underwhelmed. Their tangerine flavor, on the other hand, is decent with a similar sweetener mix though, so it proves it's possible for it to work.

Yuck. Metal. No. I won't say Pepsi has this in the bag, because who can say without tasting it? But the "sweetener cocktail" approach of Coke just seemed... weird. D-Day for Pepsi Edge appears to be another few weeks away. Apparently they wanted Coke to take all the heat first. Well as long as "Diet Rite" is the only 100% Splenda blend Cola, we'll definitely never know (actually it has Ace-K too, I think, but it's lacking HFCS, Sorbitol, Aspartame... those traditional bad boys)!

Folks, please stop with the quote-in-quote games--especially for marginally off-topic talk. Quoting the last relevant post only is usually enough to tip people off to what you are responding to.

Actually I'm pretty sure their grills ARE hotter. They think it saves them money? See... the joke is that water and ice are made of the same stuff. Actually, I think this IS half of an answer. Ice is often put in soda for that reason, even though the cost difference is pretty minimal if the soda is from a fountain.

Some motives are murky, but a pure profit motive seems clear on this one. They know they can get away with it. ----------------------------- Okay, new question, more of a "historical" question. How did the practice of serving bread before a restaurant meal start? I'm not sure this was ever really a common practice in most households, so how did it make the jump to an almost universal restaurant practice? Financially it makes absolutely no sense--you are filling people up with something they aren't paying for and they are likely to buy less food!