Nathan

no one gets headaches from pigging out on Dorito's or heirloom tomatoes. That's my point.

as seen above, any of the better Danny Meyer or Meyer-esque restaurants. that's sort of the category by definition. Aquavit on its best days. Sneakeater: would you put Robuchon in this category?

iheartoffal: sorry, I brain-farted. my "huh?" was for Azianbrewer...

iheartoffal: huh?

smgarsh: i know. but people are only allergic to MSG when the cook is Asian.

"To say it's purely psychogenic is in itself an unscientific statement. " no one said that. but I noted that there were other plausible physiological causes. put it this way: if you get heaches after Chinese but not after other glutamate-laden cuisines, maybe one should first suspect what is unique about the former when searching for culprits. and, since we are engaging in anecdotal data: I sprinkle Accent into certain dishes (meaty or savory ones -- mushroom risotto and the like)...I've never had anyone assert a headache...including people who were supposedly MSG intolerant. of course, I didn't tell them I was using it either. and I'm not Chinese.

"There are countless studies on people being sensitive to mono-sodium glutamates but who are okay with other glutamate compound." I would love to see legit cites. but yeah, this is getting off-topic.

maybe there's a generation gap here? I daresay that no one in my age group is aware of any "Asian gambling" stereotype. (I'm vaguely familiar with the belief that gambling is popular in some Asian cultures -- maybe it's true?)

"I am talking about the synthetic msg and not the type produced in soy sauce." I don't understand what this sentence means. There is no such thing as "synthetic msg." There are glutamates which have been isolated, and glutamates which haven't. It's like the difference between apples and apple juice.

oh, and most doctors aren't familiar with the research on glutamates. but, if you get the same headache after eating tomato sauce or hen of the woods mushrooms at Hearth, I will retract everything I have said and eat my words.

sigh. 1. one study of 36 people isn't proof of much. 2. yeah, they found that a few people had symptoms at over 3 grams. 3. do you have any clue how much MSG that is? far more than you will get in any restaurant meal. 4. I don't doubt that you get headaches. once again, what makes you think they're from MSG? it's not even classified as an allergen because there is no body of work proving that it is in any quantity that anyone would actually ingest.

I don't even understand this. The context of her comments was on Chinese restaurants. (and it's not like Vegas is lacking in high-end French food btw) once again, if on any given day Vegas has the greatest density of expat Chinese wealth, then it would make perfect sense for it to have the best Chinese restaurants. and if that is true, yes, I'm sure they are there for the gambling and partying. there, I said it. call me a racist. btw, on any given day Vegas may have the wealthiest expats of many a nationality, not just Chinese. and yes, they're all there for the gambling and partying. oh for Pete's sake: the craziest thing here is that most people would be oblivious to the supposed stereotype that Rich is talking about. I daresay that 95% of Americans have no clue that there is any sort of Asian gambling stereotype. you either have to have traveled widely in Asia or know people who have been to Macao or watched a bunch of old movies with mah jong tables...etc. spare me. (P.S. a stereotype is simply a statistical generalization. some are false, some are true, some are partially true) edited: to add the words "and partying" for clarification

I eat there relatively regularly when engaging in neighborhood debauchery. it's not a culinary destination but the bar steak frites is quite good... I've heard good things about brunch and breakfast...

because truth matters...and some myths are pernicious. an "opinion" is a statement such as, "I don't like the savory taste that MSG gives to foodstuffs"...that's an opinion. "MSG is synthetic" -- that's not an opinion, that's a false statement of fact. "MSG causes headaches" is not an opinion, it's almost certainly a false statement of fact. I don't doubt that your friend gets headaches. now, how the h___ do you or your friend know that those headaches are from MSG? I know you're not a biologist or chemist. so, you don't. btw, one slight correction: although the traditional method of isolating MSG is to extract it from seaweed, the most common commercial production method today is the simple fermentation of ammonia. what is "synthetic" about that?

another thing: Thai and Vietnamese fish sauce (also used in Laos and Indonesia) is filled with MSG. Does your friend get headaches from eating any of those cuisines? I'm guessing not.

gingersweetiepie: "not to start a war here or anything, but if msg is not a big deal, i don't see why two people are challenging my claim that it's used at the restaurant. why would i make up something so stupid?" I didn't challenge it. I said that any cook that uses soy sauce, seaweed, tomatoes, mushrooms or parmesan cheese (among many other foodstuffs) uses MSG. Without question and reservation, I can assert that you cook with it. I was questioning your premise. "msg is cheap, synthetic and unecessary in making food taste good." its not "synthetic", it's extracted from seaweed. "if you like it, more power to you; splash it on everything you eat. it gives others a wicked headache, though. as for it being naturally" "MSG headaches" almost certainly don't exist. no one gets them from eating sushi. they're from overconsumption, too much oil or purely psychogenic. "occuring, you have to admit that there's a difference between eating a tomato and adding synthetic powder to your food." your premise is false. adding seaweed extract to my food is analogous to adding tomato paste.

I don't even understand this dispute. I lived in Vancouver for several years. I can assure you that the wealth "expat Chinese" community in Vancouver is much larger than the one in NY. I can also assure you that Vancouver has better Chinese restaurants (and I have heard the same about SF). That's just a given. If you're unfamiliar with the famous Hong Kong wealth migration to Vancouver in the 80's I suggest that you google it. It is precisely Hong Kong wealth that made Vancouver into a world-class city. As for Vegas, I think you're being deliberately obtuse. I find it more than possible, indeed probable, that there are more wealthy Chinese (as opposed to Chinese Americans) in Vegas on any given day than in NY...no one said anything about them living there (besides you).

I've always enjoyed Momofuku...eat there often. I find the Ssam too sweet and the ramen fine but not great. Everything else is great...and that's really the point of the menu...the seasonal stuff. As for the MSG thing...what you saw Accent in the kitchen or something? I could care less anyway. If you use soy sauce you're filling your food with it. ditto if you use seaweed, tomatoes, mushroom, many cheeses, etc.... heck, the menu at Megu is replete with allusions to how filled with "umami" their food is. of course, only a couple compounds are known to hit your umami taste receptors...and the primary one is MSG.

I didn't realize Esca served lunch. that would be my recommendation then. Lupa has deterioriated since Ladner left for Del Posto.

Casa Mono is better than Lupa these days (IMO). Those are the only two Batali restaurants that serve lunch.

I've been away from this thread but a couple points (objections) to some comments that have been made: 1. I don't understand FatGuy's point about the economics of New York v. Chicago. Alinea is just as expensive as Per Se (literally). Alinea appears to be packed every night in Chicago. 2. Rich, I don't understand your ethnic neighborhood comparison between Chicago and New York. Having lived in both cities I'm perfectly comfortable with saying that Chicago's ethnic enclaves are more robust and less diverse than those of New York (see its Indian, Pakistani, Polish and Serbian neighborhoods for starters). If anything, Chicago is roughly comparable to Brooklyn and Queens combined.

good point on the economics of chicago vis a vis NY. however, I would note that, in my view, Wylie is actually more avant garde than Achatz when it comes to cuisine....at least based on my recent meal at Alinea. (tableware is another matter altogether)

I found the Ssam at Momofuku to be too sweet for my taste...how customizable are the ones here?

there's this wonderful thing called google.

pictures of both tasting menu dishes and ala carte dishes can be found here: http://augieland.blogs.com/augie_land/2006...ier_de_joe.html