Nathan

"The pedigree of the chefs and the menus driven by indigenous ingredients make all three only possible in NY." True and utterly banal. Yeah, every decent restaurant in the world that uses local ingredients is unique. So? They all deserve a star? By that definition there should be five hundred starred restaurants in the U.S. alone (just under that criteria). thousands in Italy and France. never mind that this sort of restaurant is better in California anyway...because they have better local ingredients (in most categories) year round. btw, the Tasting Room is perhaps the most direct exemplar of this kind of cooking in NY. too bad it's not that good. the thing is, I'm a huge fan of ingredient-driven cooking...which is why I love Yasuda (which some friends of mine find boring and uncreative), Italian cooking...etc. And Savoy is very good. So is Blue Hill (and I think it should have gotten a star....) but just because their vegetables are from the east coast doesn't automatically make them star worthy. in the past five years this country has become filled with restaurants notable for sourcing local ingredients.

I've just got around to this thread -- it's interesting to see the conversation that moved (I think not unintentionally) in the direction of Walter Benjamin, Kant (cf. Critique of Judgment), Gotthold Lessing and even Longinus. The discussion of aesthetics was, of course, once a large part of western philosophy (and of some Asian schools as well)...this hit a hiatus in the twentieth century with the advent of logical positivism and has now seen a sharp resurgence among serious philosophers. (of course, as is the nature of academia...literature and art departments became enthralled with the children of the logical positivists during the 80's and 90's and are only now escaping....but there tends to be a 30-40 year delay for philosophical trends to reach literate and art departments.) in aesthetics there has always been a creator/performer distinction...with the recognition that some performances can be, in and of themselves, art. the obvious analogy here is music: what makes a great pianist, a great violinist...etc. is the way they insert individuality and nuance into the performance. take two pianists...playing the same score...one of them takes the Prokofiev approach -- treating the piano as a percussive instrument -- the result on the listener will be very different than the same piece played by the other pianist. ultimately, I think we all internally, and even subconsciously, hierarchize performers into three categories: a. those whose performing is so sublime and original that it constitutes artistry of its own. b. those whose performances are technically correct...but no more than that...i.e. performances which are ultimately simulacra of what the creator originally devised. b. performances which just suck. (i.e. Bocelli has neither originality nor even technical skill....but he sells a lot of records because he's blind) likewise with cuisine...the creation of a dish can certainly constitute artistry...while, in theory, it may be that execution could rise to that level as well. whether it does, I think, is something worth discussing, even by those not trained in aesthetics.

well yeah, they use local produce when possible...that's pretty Californian (or pretty European really)....and this is unique how? it's no different than thousands of restaurants on the West Coast...restaurants up and down the East Coast, Roots in Milwaukee, L'Etoile in Madison....etc. (I happen to think that Savoy is an underrated and forgotten restaurant (in general) but there is nothing unique or uniquely NY about it.)

on the other hand, augieland most certainly seems to agree with the high ranking of Del Posto: http://augieland.blogs.com/augie_land/2006...osto_933_b.html

Robyn: I've only perused Zagat in two locales...NY and the midwest. I found it highly unreliable for both. It may be better in other places. I do question why A Voce has been around long enough to get a star but not EMP under Humm. CB is a different matter since ultimately Bouloud is responsible for the restaurant and menu....and that hasn't changed.

I'm rather confused as to what is so NY about Blue Hill, Savoy and Hearth. The first two are NY versions of contemporary California cuisine.

I stand corrected. edit: This is surprising. Several weeks ago I made a lunch reservation for a Sunday in the main dining room at JG (I specifically requested the main dining room)...I had to cancel it for schedule reasons. Unless she scheduled me for the Nougatine anyway......

oh...Michelin has its outliers all right. but at least they're at the one-star level. not at the top of the list! still, take the top 40 in the Zagat overall list....I'll bet half of the inclusions are dubious....as opposed to four or five on the Michelin list.

Fat Al: well, yeah, part of the problem with Zagat is simply their mathematical idiocy (20 is midway, not 15, in the Zagat system). Bechamel: the problem with Zagat is that about half the restaurants in their top-ten simply don't belong there. (and look at their #1s over the past few years....Grocery??) Few would seriously dispute that the two and three stars in the Michelin list aren't in the top-ten in NY (the dispute would be about what other restaurants may belong in that list). Sneakeater: I agree that in some ways DB&D is indeed characteristic of NY dining (at least a certain type of NY dining demographic)... and it's not a bad restaurant...but there are many better...

that's my understanding anyway...(I haven't eaten there on the weekend)

FG: I agree that the Michelin list is not a great list. My only point was that is the best PUBLISHED list available. Do I think I could put together a better list in ten minutes? Yes, of course. However, I question whether if we put together 20 people from egullet and asked them to come up with a list of NY's top 40 restaurants that it would be any better....why? too many disagreements on the outliers. Rich would want to give the Tasting Room (at least the old version) three stars. I would want to give Sriphithai a star....etc. I'm sure someone would want to give Katz's a star -- which I would be adamantly opposed to...etc. I really don't think that any group effort would come up with a better list.

Robyn: I live in NY. are there 40 or so restaurants in NY that are better than DB&D...yes, imo there are (and I've been VIP'ed out the wazoo at DB&D thanks to people in my party being certain notable individuals) I travel on a regular basis. When I do so I consult all relevant food sources (this includes Michelin...if applicable....egullet, various regional guides and even Frommers and Fodors on occasion (I'm going to Venice, Florence and Verona next week and the advice I'm getting from EG exactly replicates the listings in Frommers))....the one thing that I never ever consult is Zagat.

it does on Sundays, however

everyone has their own must-haves: I don't have the foggiest clue if any of the following are on the menu right now but: personally, I'm partial to the frog's legs with young garlic soup, the cauliflower and scallops dish, the egg with caviar (if they have this it will be with a supplemental charge), any turbot preparation...

there is a set (pretty long) list of courses, of which a couple will carry a supplement. you can pick two for $28. additional courses are $12 each. so, if you each got two courses and a glass of wine ($10)...after tax and tip you're looking at about $55 each.

imho, Michelin does that better than Zagat. if a restaurant is included in Michelin it is almost certainly "decent"....certainly not so for Zagat.

oh, and walk a couple blocks west (it's not very far)

the problem with the Times is that they don't update the stars every year. so, it's not an accurate guide...(this is especially true below the 4-star level) as for NY Magazine, if anyone out their can ascertain Platt's methodology, well, you're a heck of a lot more astute than me. he's all over the map. (there are some things that I'm curious about with respect to Michelin...can anyone with serious K-town knowledge tell me how good their Korean picks are?)

Lever House is a power lunch place with pretty good food. You will eat well enough there but there's nothing significant about the food either. Why not just walk in the entrance up to the host/hostess, eye it, and then walk out? then walk five blocks or so up and eat lunch at JG

if Michelin actually has 20% of Zagat's market share in NY bookstores I'm sure they would be ecstatic.

Zagat? are you kidding? http://www.zagat.com/about/about.aspx?menu=PR67 this is a better list? it's not a year or so behind the times...it's just wrong. LB is not the best restaurant in the city. maybe it was 10 years ago. GT never was. ditto for Grocery. it is not that the Michelin list is by any means perfect... but it is the only serious list.

interesting. so they did their homework some....

Raji: actually, the majority of the Asian diaspora in Vancouver is first generation (I lived there in the 80's...right in the midst of the massive Hong Kong and, to a lesser extent, Sikh, influx)

the Michelin "Bib Gourmand" list of cheap "Inspector's favorites" is found at the end of this link: http://www.michelinmedia.com/pressSingle/v...CH2006102349770 it is an excellent list, notable entries include: Beyoglu Bianca Blue Ribbon Bakery Cho Dang Gol Dinosaur BBQ Fatty Crab Golden Unicorn (what is this?) N.Y. Noodletown Gum Fung (what is this?) Inoteca Jackson Diner Katz's (you can rest easy FG...they included it this year) Lupa Momofuku Pearl Oyster Bar Prune S'Agapo Saravanaas Snack Soba-Ya Sripraphai Yang Pyung Seoul these are really excellent picks for the visitor on a budget

NY does have a large undocumented population of young Japanese...but yeah, people often underestimate the vast Asian (of all backgrounds) population in Vancouver....