Adam Balic

Beef and pork, veal if I can get it. I cook the sauce for about four hours, so the ground beef breaks down, while the pork maintains texture. Always, red wine and milk, sometimes chicken livers. Best with wide pasta. Depending on the sauce, I may corrct for sweetness level with a pinch of sugar. I use canned tomatos and they are often not sweet enough. One tip is that when about to serve, scoop off about a cup of the very fatty surface sauce and place this into the pasta pot (now lacking pasta and water) and "fry" the sauce on a high heat. Mixe the pasta with re-fried sauce and add the other sauce seperately. This frying step gives you an extra level of flavour and the fats split from the sauce and coat the pasta strands.

Jeffrey - I have very much enjoyed reading you articles. One think that I have noticed is that you seem to be, eh, ever so slightly extremely focused on your topics of interest. Disturbingly, this all made perfect sense to me, so when you encouraged a friend to import/smuggle several pounds of horse fat from Europe to the USA for the purpose of French fry making, I thought that this was very sensible and wise. But, with this approach to food, do you get bored with the topic/focus of interest once you have got it "worked out"? Would you be as good a food writer if you didn't have this level of focus? On the topic of obsession, in you recent book, you mentioned on a trip to Thailand that you brought back some wild peppercorns, were these "Long Pepper" (Piper longum/retrofractum), which were popular with the Romans or was is a strange form of regular pepper ( Piper niger)?

Actually, I have had chocolate flavoured pasta in Cinque Terra. Ravioli with stripes of chocolate (I think that a plain and chocolate flavoured pasta was braided together, then put through the pasta maker). I think that to much cocoa powder, could make the pasta quite bitter and dull the other flavours. You could use 75% CB chocolate instead. I would melt it and incorpated it into the dough just before the kneading stage. As for exact amounts, different cocoa powders and chocolates have different strengths of flavour. I'm afraid that I would experiment by adding a little, then increasing the amount gradually until the desired colour was gained.

Glad to see that the pasta making worked out well. Good tips on the best methods to use as well. I prefer to add the sepia/squid ink to the sauce, but for presentation reasons I am sure that you could flavour the pasta. The pasta can taste of the ink, as it is strong flavour, but I think that adding the ink to the sauce fresh would allow you to control the flavours better. On the other hand squid ink ravioli with a white of coloured filling would look interesting. One thing that you can do for reasons of presentation is to use a stencil to make shapes on the pasta out of herbs etc. at the stage in the pasta making where you are putting the past though the rollers. Or you can incorporate whole leaves, such as flat leaved parsley etc. There some pasta recipes that suggest the addition of Vin Santo, to flavour the pasta. I have my doubts about this, but it is a possiblity.

Adam this is a bit of a misconception, as there are certainly literary sources for a wide variety of things illiterate people did -- just not recipes. But this is immaterial, because only the wealthy could afford spices. Yes and my deffinitions of "Peasant", "Medieval" and "Spice" were also generalisations. From what I have been told or read. All of the above varied quite a bit in definition from place to place and time to time (eg. Cotton cloth was a "spice"). The peasant class in 15th C Tuscany, for instance, had a relatively high percentage of literate people (according to one source), but there is little mention of their food, other then lists of produce consumed and the occasional "Thank you for the cow" letter. No mention of spice.

The is good book on the subject of food and the English by Philippa Pullar.

Yes aging. Longer hanging times don't seem to be that common now, but my supplier hangs them until they are very high and the flesh has they texture of putty. This would be an example of when fresh is not best. No need for spices either.

I think that there is enough information in the rest of my comments for you to have worked out the angle I was taking. The comment that you quaoted was part of a general list that was expanded in later posts. You should post some of the Royal court recipes, it would be very interesting to see how they compare to the 'non-royal' Malay cooking or "Royal" cuisine from other SE-Asian courts. Another thread.

Neither were Malay villagers in rural Terengganu in the 1970s, yet their use of spices helped cover the off taste of unrefrigerated day-old chicken and fish. I think 1970s classifies as "modern," don't you? (Of course, all of this is without prejudice to the question of Medieval European practices.) As discussed above re:Medieval Europeans and spice, we can only comment on the habits for the people that there are literary sources for. In Europe, this would be Kings. Princes, Popes etc. I have not doubt that people in many cultures (and from many levels in these cultures) have eaten decomposed/off meat. Some even prize it (eg. Grouse in Britain, the stinky fish from Loas). What I doubt is that King's, Princes and Popes were using spice to cover-up the taste of rotten meat. They didn't have to eat rotten meat unless they wanted to. So "Malay villagers in rural Terengganu in the 1970s" just aren't relevant. Maybe you could comment on what the Princes of Malaysia were eating in the '70's? Some rotten food to be sure, but only when they wanted it.

While Serfs may have predominated, I doubt they dominated, so gastronomically they don't count. Much more profitable to look at breakdowns of households, from top to bottom. Given the large amount of food wastage that occured in some settings, I think that the sevants got a taste of the good stuff, once and a while. There is interesting breakdowns of the food eaten in the households of bishops/monks/popes avalible in Vatican records.

I thought that the idea that medieval types used spice to mask off-meat was largely discredited? -Very few of the books actually, mention quanties of spices, and one book that does (Goodman of Paris) uses a relatively light spicing. -There are some instructions that are for dealing specificly with spoiled meat, indicating that the normal spicing routine wasn't to cover off-meat flavours. -Non-meat dishes have similar spice treatment. -Much of the fresh meat seems to be par-boiled before cooking, which would indicate that it was rather tough, therefore not very long aged. -Modern cultures that use a lot of spices don't use them to cover up rotten meat flavours, so why would the medieval types? These people are/were not idiots. n.b. Swan (black in my case) tastes nasty. But, I have only ever eaten the one. You are essentially correct on all points but while it is true that quantities of spices are rarely mentioned, instructions towards sweetness would indicate that a rather hefty amount would be used. Here is a quote from De Fait: And I agree that the spices used were certainly not limited to meats. They were used extensively across the board with whatever was cooked. I also agree that the meats were parboiled and did tend towards toughness but from my readings, much of the "rotteness" was truly to extend the life of a dish. I don't think they were cooking fully rotten meat but hunks of meat that would become several dishes and thereby be suspect. BTW, this is a link to another thirty or forty OTHER links on Medieval Cuisine: Tons More Links

so you've actually cooked these recipes then? how do they taste? i'm surprised to see so many varied spices, actually, and i see a lot of mixing of savory and sweet. It shouldn't surprise you. Remember, way back then (stepping into Mr. Peabody's WayBack Machine), there was no refrigeration or preservatives. Meat did not keep long. To hide the fact that it was rancid (not enough to kill you, but enough to taste bad), meats were HEAVILY spiced to cover the taste. I thought that the idea that medieval types used spice to mask off-meat was largely discredited? -Very few of the books actually, mention quanties of spices, and one book that does (Goodman of Paris) uses a relatively light spicing. -There are some instructions that are for dealing specificly with spoiled meat, indicating that the normal spicing routine wasn't to cover off-meat flavours. -Non-meat dishes have similar spice treatment. -Much of the fresh meat seems to be par-boiled before cooking, which would indicate that it was rather tough, therefore not very long aged. -Modern cultures that use a lot of spices don't use them to cover up rotten meat flavours, so why would the medieval types? These people are/were not idiots. n.b. Swan (black in my case) tastes nasty. But, I have only ever eaten the one.

If have ripe quinces put them in a bowl as they will last for about four weeks and they will fill the room with scent. They also look purty. We had some discussion on quince = marmalade in the past: Ye Olde eGullete Stuff Another interesting, thing is that the "Golden Apples" in Greek myths, were likely to be quinces. There is a flowering Japanese quince that produces very small fruit. I have never eaten them, but they smell very strongly of violets. Also purty.

Will they be force fed?

Yes, the slavery thing was a diversion. "Going to far" in terms of 'explotation of a natural process', in reference to Sam's comments. But in reference to your comments here, the Egyptian's force feeding wild caught birds (and some domestic) is a long way removed from "Modern" FG production. You would have noted that the Egyptian images of the birds being fed depict birds that look significantly different to the modern Toulouse breed (whats that Alsace goose breed? Ebdem? Strasbough?). Some people, again not me, would find that objectional. The point being, what are the US producers going to do about their image?

That actually seems like a pretty good idea. Why do you think they can't do that? I suspect that even such a small scale and specialised as FG producers can't afford to piss off the bigger players. Otherwise why not go for that angle?

I'm curious what you mean by "gone too far"? Having researched the production of foie gras, I do not see that its method of production has changed significantly in say, oh, 4,000 years! There are ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs that depict the forcefeeding of geese and it looks just about the same when I visited the foie gras farm. No judgement of mine was intended. I don't think it is a big deal actually (in terms of animal welfare), I would rather concentrate on battery chickens. But I'm curious, are you saying that because the Egyptians did it this way (they also did it to herons and a whole range of birds yes), then it must be OK? That would make slavery legit as well no? Just as an aside. The Romans valued Goose liver and they fed up animals to make them fat. From what I have read there is no evidence that they force fed the geese though? The best livers were from birds fed on figs (hence the modern Italian "Fegato") and I have seen descriptions of the livers being plumped post-mortem, but is there any evidence of Roman force feeding for foie gras production?

Caponisation is an extention of a natural process? It involves surgery you know. I'm afraid I don't by your "These exploitations of natural tendencies beyond what "nature" intended are not in and of themselves cruel or morally wrong.", as it is a hardly objective is it? In raising squab, there is a theory that if you break their legs, you will get a better tasting meat. I'm guessing that you and most people would be agaist this process? Some people would argue the production of foie gras has gone that one step to far and the fact that it can be shown to be an explotation of a natural process is irrelevant. If the foie gras producers were serious about trying to bring some objective evidence of the lack of cruelty in the process then they should invest in some research into stress levels etc. My guess would be that the birds were 'happy', but had some liver disfuction. In that case the FG producers should start making comparisons between there birds and factory farmed chickens for instance. But, they can't do that can they?

While this is true, I don't think that it is defence of there growers position. The gorging that the geese/ducks under go is far above the levels that the wild birds would do. They have to fly after all and force fed geese are incredibly over-weight. That is taking the natural process much further then "a bit". Many commentators on food of the region state that the meat from the force fed birds is to fatty to roast etc, so this is why confit of these birds is so common. So by trying to sell a half truth, I thing that the growers have put themselves into a weak position. Why the fuss over foie gras now in the US? It would seem to have similar motivations as the 'Fox hunting debate in the UK'.

I haven't done it much as I don't really like flavoured pasta (not that the spinach gives that much flavour), as I like the contrast between the sauce and pasta. I have made saffron flavoured pasta (for the mussel pasta recipe), but concluded that I prefer to add the saffron to the sauce. I'm sure there would be no problem with using a food processor with a plastic blade, but I haven't done it. I can't judge the difference it would make without having compared the two techniques.

Excess? Fresh pasta can discolour on storage, due to development of melanins and soft wheat flour pasta becomes very brittle when dried. So for soft wheat pasta I would use it up on the day or prehaps even freeze it fresh, but not dry it. For Semolina/Durum wheat pasta I would dry it store in a cool dry place.

Thanks Sam, but you will have to ask you questions in the next few days as I am off to Australia soon.

If you have a tree (if you have the space for a medium sized tree it is well worth it as they are very beautiful and fill the area with scent at night) and you have very ripe quinces, you could just about eat some raw, although this would be a waste. In Morocco they cook tagine with quince and there are several Persian stews that use quince. In the EGCI pasta coarse there is a recipe for a quince ravioli (n.b. shameless plug). They make an excellent jelly and when cooked are great for all manner of desserts. Regarding there cooking. If you simmer them in sweetened water they will be soft in about half an hour. At this stage they will be a light yellow colour with a touch of pink. If you cook them longer they will develop the pink colour, eventually becoming a deep ruby red colour. This works if simmered, but they can fall apart. Much better to oven bake them. Take the fruit, peeled, cored and quatered, mix with vanilla sugar and put in a oven proof pot, that has a lid. Place in oven (160.C) and bake for 5 hours, baste occasionally with juices. If the begin to dry out add liquid as you do not want the sugar to caramelize an burn. At this stage they can be eaten with ice cream etc or use for tart tartin, pies, crumbles, cobblers, flans or even trifles. A nice 'trifle' is PX sherry flavoured custard, with quince, crushed amaretti and toasted almonds. The are my favourite fruit.

Robert - if you are interested in a much more detailed examination of pasta around the Med. then I would point you to the Clifford Wright book that I mentioned in the thread. An excellent book (although I wish that he was more detailed in his referencing).

Thank you Paula for the book suggestion. I am always on the lookout for information. In one was going be in a town that was been starved out, I would prefer to be in "We were so desperate we had to invent Zampone", rather then "We were so desperate we had to in eat acorns".