Steve (Plotnicki) I have now read your latest Crappy thread . First I should say that I am by no means an expert on this subject, so feel free to disregard anything I say. "The reason that the food wasn't all that good for so long was that the population didn't have enough money to care about doing the things that improve the quality of their lives." First, I would disagree that British food was always crappy or compared poorly to other countries (let's say "France", to make it easy). Actually, from the comparative recipes of have seen from the 16-18th C., Britain hold's it own. Forget about the money/class issue, when has that ever stopped a group of people from appreciating food and developing a food culture? Only under conditions of extreme poverty, which was not the case in the UK, or indifference. Food culture seems to come from different sources in different times and places. The "Now" of food culture in the UK does seem to be largely about an increasingly affluent middle class, with increased leisure time on their hands. Food culture isn't always about the upper-middle class. My family is working class, but they have a keen interest in food. In this context, it's about food as a celebration of the family and the re-enforcement of social bonds. When family visited, we killed a pig and it would be spit roasted by the men of the family (hand turned) for about six hours. There would be lots of grappa etc, you get the picture. Did that ever happen in the UK? Most likely, but in a differnt way. Much of what my family gets out of the pig-killing-cooking can be gained in different ways. Look at the pub culture in the UK, it doesn't exist in Italy, so does that mean that the Italians don't have a developed a social life? To answer you first question. Hmmm, don't really know, but I think that idea of what "class" is tends to be pretty dynamic. It sounds like a post-modernism cop-out, but the just because there wasn't a recognisible upper-middle class, does not mean that there weren't other social obligations/constraints that were just as important at the time. Bottom line: Food in Britain was crappy because of a shitty 20th C. and because it wasn't important to the Brits under those conditions. Social bonds, celebration of your friends all that good stuff, doesn't require a food culture as it does say Italy or France. A very interesting topic. I never though I would defend British food. Must be a growth experience.