jgould

re: Bux - excellent reply & thx. as per a "kir", i have always been told the classic is: add creme de cassis to an aligote, the secondary white of burgundy, to soften its rough edge. in the US, 99/100 serve a "kir" with either a white burgundy, or a sauvignon blanc which simply is a waste of good chardonnay or sauvignon blanc

Not caring doesn't equal not wrong. Difficult to define doesn't equal pointless to define. Widespread incorrect usage doesn't make that usage correct; it makes it something that should be corrected. Those who labor to create real barbecue deserve to have that term properly utilized by those who care about good food, and especially by those who write and communicate about food. Without language communication becomes extremely difficult; without precise language precise communication is nearly impossible. excellent points & totally agree, particularly when attempting to communicate a concept to someone who has never tasted a certain dish or cuisine. however, as much as i am a stickler for "classic" Q, even i must admit, & through excellent threads such as this, that BBQ can be described by dictionary definitions, but in reality, it exists as a state of mind! being originally from the South, BBQ meant PORK ( preferably boston butt) being slow-cooked over wood, preferably green hickory or in a converted oil drum cooked by a combination of heat (low) & smoke - "low & slow". for me, sauce is an essential element, but would never argue that point with anyone from no. carolina.

champagne!!

uws bistros would certainly be a challenge!

as per frank prial's wine column: "americans, as opposed to europeans, embrace having a glass of wine, whereas europeans have a true aperitif before & wine with dinner." nominations: lillet, byrhh, ???

i love film noir. what is: anything by raymond chandler. originally film noir was as the words suggest: black film. began with the 'B' movies in the 40's which filmed in black & white & took advantage of light & shadows to save on budgets, characterized by their lean & cynical scripts. the period lasted for only a short time, but luckily did evolve into a little more sophistication. dick powell was probably most representative of the era. now, where is my gimlet????

no one from egullet has been?

just go! a description will not do it, or the paellas, justice!! snag a seat at the bar & order a pitcher of sangria to prepare for the wait, which is fun once u relax. then get another pitcher at the table. no appetizer, the salad & its dressing is great, get a representative sampling, i.e., paella, mariscada, chicken villaroy! be sure & go with at least 6. enjoy

oh my!!! don't bring your credit card - bring gold bars!!!!

I haven't been to Ouest in nearly a year, so my thoughts are not up to date. I remember a scallop appetizer that consisted of two scallops. This would have been fine it was on a tasting menu, but not as a regular appetizer in the $10-15 range. Otherwise, I really can't speak of Ouest with any authority. I went three times not long after they opened and never had a desire to go back. Too much hype without much substance in my opinion. In that price range, I'd gladly walk 10 blocks South of my apartment to Nougatine. Should I go back to Ouest for meal now that the hype has died down a bit? quite simply - NO!! spend either less or more than @ ouest. it has now become valenti's stepchild to his true calling represented by the italian 'cesca. as for portion size, & to be honest, i also have never experienced a problem with the portion sizes at ouest. then again, i am a fan of small portion sizes in general. would rather have small, exquisite, flavor-filled entree, main course, dessert vs. the typical american-expected "value" portion sized meals. no wonder we are the most obese country "tout le monde"!

No one is disagreeing with you. Rather, just trying to provide different thinking. There is not a one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to restaurant wine pricing (another one of my "obvious" observations). as i said, its no longer worth responding to "he said, she said" & "tit for tat". not only does it become a waste of time, but it doesn't add to the topic at hand. if u insist on having the last word, be my guest, s'il vous plaît

it never ceases to amaze me on this venue. when one chooses to disagree or point out the obvious, which goes against another's arguements, then its ok for that person to take a rather snide approach -- as opposed to intelligently deal with the issue at hand, which is "painfully priced wine lists", & BY DEFAULT, the high costs of wine in restaurants. i personally don't appreciate the "terms of shortsightedness" comment, nor the "violent disagreement" statement by the poster. it infers too much self-righteousness & one-sidedness. i don't know if others feel the same, but there seems to be a group within egullet who feel their opinions carry more weight or feel they can say anything to either discredit an alternate view or name call, via concealed incendiary statements. the point of the continuing "pg 1" thread is an honest discussion of the cause & effect of higher than necessary wine mark-ups in restaurants. due to the nature of this thread & the common topic of wine, not geography, it would be quite difficult to begin a list of the restaurants that mark-up without regard. its not a question of "just dealing with it", or being told to take your toys & go elsewhere. its about having an open forum to discuss how, why, where & is there a solution. i don't believe its anyone's position here to dictate a restaurant's business model; however, this is a site, to meet & intelligently comment about the subject at hand, which in this case, is wine ... etc. it is NOT helpful to state the obvious, ex. " mark-ups are part of being a retail customer... blah, blah, blah... " really, thanks for the incredible insight & btw, here's one for the front page - markups are not theory. "DEAL WITH IT, or stay home" its NOT a question of dealing with it, its an attempt to debate IF there is anything that can be done. who knows, MAYBE someone will come up with a novel idea. lastly, its again obvious, that its the market that decides - thx again for the insight. however, as opposed to simply repeat old epitaphs, it might be more constructive to discuss what one thinks is a reasonable markup, etc, etc... or simply providing ONE's input - vs - attacking another's position. what started out & continued, until recently, was a very thoughtful back-&-forth discussion about the merits of wine mark-up overkill. now, due to the level of comments recently expressed, it is no longer worthwhile to continue & as a result, another interesting, & topical debate bites the dust.

in addition to the above, walked past the future site of jacques IMO at 77th & columbus, although a feb opening, looked dormant inside???

2nd Sevilla. have been eating there for 30 yrs. never consider anyplace else when going for Spanish. ???? : " Honorable mention: Florent (in the meatpacking district), for their absolutely wonderful ... , rillettes, and daily specials. " had the rlllettes, served as 2 scoops similar to an ice cream scoop, absolutely terrible, tasted like dog food!!! manager was very gracious. Who are you quoting about the "honorable mention," J? What are Sevilla's prices like? Do they make a good paella? sorry, quoting Soba in his earlier post: "Honorable mention: Florent (in the meatpacking district), for their absolutely wonderful foie gras rillettes..." sevilla's prices are very reasonable & their paellas are excellent. another dish not to be missed is "chicken villaroy" - incredible!!!

very cool, thx so much for the info. maybe i should just try a few more whites in the riedel vinum red burgundy stem before going out & purchasing the vinum chianti/riesling grand cru/zinfandel. the evidence, as usual, is "in the eye of the beholder"; the responses here have been fabulous & educational. whether a white is "better" out of a smaller glass, i.e., the chianti/riesling 13 oz for bouquet concentration - or - the larger red burgundy 24 3/4 oz for bouquet concentation/development/swirling space remains somewhat of a question mark with respect to so many professional opinions/observations. thx again!! holy cow!!! stopped into a very reputable wine store yesterday & had a wonderful conversation with a wine saleman who was both knowledgeable about wine & riedel. in his opinion, riedel's engineering is very well thought out & uses careful analysis to design each glass. naturally, i pounced on this opportunity to ask re: my question about the vinum bx, red burg & the chianti. his response (& this is shortened), & assuming i am trying to have as few glasses as possible, was the bx for reds, the red burg for pinot noirs, & the chardonnay for the whites!!!! he had tried the chianti, as some had suggested, but found the glass was not suitable because they closed down the whites!! & while admitting the chardonnay was a little on the small side, he explained the shape vis-a-vis the chianti, etc, etc., & that riedel had taken this into consideration. in other words, riedel's shapes are not willy-nilly, but THOUGHT ABOUT before designing. the red burgundy for whites, also was not shaped for whites, although "possibly" for use with the best whites, i.e., montrachet. it was interesting to be able to view 1sthand all the glasses together to compare & contrast. he even explained why their specific for some type sake glass was exquisitely designed for maximum enjoyment.

its funny all these comments are so "inside-the-box"!!! in other words, everyone seems to be starting with the premise that everything is marked-up, ergo, deal with it -- whether from not going to these restaurants, or not ordering wine, or just consider it as payment for the experience. that is not the point. most professional wine people will admit that wine for too many yrs was marketed to the hi-end & therefore price was secondary. now that wine is in the mainstream, the wine industry wants to keep the same pricing scale - NO KIDDING - DUH!! . obviously, if we, the public, allow them, which we have; then this ridiculous pricing will continue. therefore, craig's original point will fall on deaf ears - AS IT APPARENTLY HAS - EVEN HERE, except for a few of us. & yes, i HAVE thought about it - serve good wines in thick, cheap tumblers on bare tabletops & let's see the results. the focus will be strictly on the quality of both wine & food & we will no longer have to hear ad nauseum about HAVING to pay for the "experience". its NOT a question of saavy diners or all the things a restaurant provides - DUH - WE ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR IT BY THE PRICING ALREADY IN PLACE!!! is someone suggesting its not enough?????? & no, oversupply does not, per se, affect decisions to HAVE wine, but it does enter into our disgust at unnecessary high prices when aware of BOTH the oversupply & the insulting mark-ups!!! & to come full circle > that is my point exactly, when we still order & over pay, they will still charge!! that, my friend, is inelastic pricing!! "the fault, dear brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves ... "

may philip marlowe live forever. also, elliot gould in a more modern version of film noir. as for food while watching - no question: entree: gin martinis - preferably gibsons main course: salad, steak, potatoes dessert: whiskey, neat edited for effect

very cool, thx so much for the info. maybe i should just try a few more whites in the riedel vinum red burgundy stem before going out & purchasing the vinum chianti/riesling. the evidence, as usual, is "in the eye of the beholder"; the responses here have been fabulous & educational. whether a white is "better" out of a smaller glass, i.e., the chianti/riesling 13 oz for bouquet concentration - or - the larger red burgundy 24 3/4 oz for bouquet concentation/development/swirling space remains somewhat of a question mark with respect to so many professional opinions/observations. thx again!!

"supposedly" Hine Antique XO ~ $75 is a good example of a an XO, according to another thread here.

THAT IS DEPRESSING BUT, still not as egregious as wine!! let's take a look: grapes & growing $ 1.80 winemaking 2.20 packaging .92 marketing .60 sales & distri. 3.00 adminis. .60 winery profit 1.35 ** whlsale markup 4.56 retail markup 7.44 rest markup ~ 35.00 total P to customer $60.00 for a regular little CA cab from Napa & that's NOT even considering a nice little bordeaux from the Medoc!!

unfortunately, the death knell began with soltner's sale. its quite amazing it was able to hang on as long as it did, but i know very few from the old crowd that continued to go once soltner was no longer in the kitchen. and what a kitchen it was - no larger than a bread box!! as to personal experience: it was my first visit to haute cuisine, & it made a lasting impression for which i am eternally grateful. so tonite's toast will be to andre & wife, & their wonderful institution. funny, i never felt that way about la cote basque's closing.

NFW

thx for ALL the wonderful responses. plan on purchasing the riedel vinum chianti for "most" whites, & continue to use the red burgundy for the montrachet crowd. egullet rocks with information, knowledgeable & helpful members (in a good way) actually, i may have a better solution: buy only white burgundies!!!

actually, that's true & not true. unless u have a better example - the # of hands that wine travels - from land - to - table is more than most!!! & if its not, the mark-ups long the way are certainly more than most.

If you go to a restaurant and feel the wine prices are unfairly marked up, the obvious answer is to not buy the wine. If wine sales drop because the prices are too high, market forces will come into play. As long as you keep paying, the situation will not change. its an amazing paradox, but a proven fact: market forces do NOT seem to come into play in this situation!!!!!!!!! i have not seen where wine prices have dropped anywhere, & that's in the face of oversupply, which turns economics 101 upside down, i.e. when S > D, P decreases - NOT IN WINE'S CASE, unless as u state "as long as ... "