Varmint

I think that we can agree that it's meat that is slow-cooked, generally over a radiant heat source (that may be direct or indirect) and preferably, that heat source is wood.

Actually, I don't think the addition or exclusion makes any difference whether or not something is barbecue. It's merely a flavoring agent (and a bad one at that).

I won't argue with you on this point, as many more people are aware of what is barbecue. A lot of this is due to many people moving from the North to the South, where barbecue is more prevalent. Moreover, the media has given barbecue a lot more attention -- whether it's magazines, newspapers, or the Food Network, barbecue, in its most authentic and genuine form, is big.

To say that it's universal in America to refer to those ribs as barbecue is wrong. In fact, until I moved to the South over 20 years ago, I never heard of the word "barbecue" used as a noun that is a type of food. "Let's go out for barbecue," is totally common vernacular in the North and has been for my entire life. Likewise, we have restaurants in the North called Dallas BBQ, William's Bar-B-Que, etc., that simply serve oven-baked and rotisserie meats -- no smoke. Whether most Americans would call the ribs "barbecue" or "barbecued ribs" strikes me as totally irrelevant to the conversation. Either both are wrong, or anything anybody calls barbecue/barbecued is barbecue/barbecued. Buy you live in New York City, Steve, which is the greatest restaurant city in the world! You know what barbecue is because you have it in the city. Go outside of the city, and I will assure you that the vast majority of people don't think of "barbecue" as a type of meat. I do think that if you look at the adjective "barbecued" it has a connotation of being cooked outside over some heat source (which may be direct or indirect). If it's done inside an oven, then it's just baked! Does adding a barbecue sauce to baked chicken make it barbecued chicken? I don't think so, but that improper usage of the word is common. Back to my NC example of putting 1,000 plates of chopped pork in front of people, if you told them that the pork was cooked over gas or electric, the vast majority would say it's still barbecue. If you told them that the pork was baked in an oven, then many fewer would say it's barbecue, even though there may be little difference in taste. The key, perhaps, is in the fact that barbecue is slow cooked over a heat source. ????

To say that it's universal in America to refer to those ribs as barbecue is wrong. In fact, until I moved to the South over 20 years ago, I never heard of the word "barbecue" used as a noun that is a type of food. I would say that the majority of people may actually refer to those ribs as "ribs." Another group would call them, "barbecued ribs." Others would call them "barbecue." Only people who live in the barbecue regions or who have learned of the traditions from those areas would refer to it as barbecue. I'd argue that we're talking about a fairly small minority. If you put a plate of NC barbecue in front of someone in Texas or Oregon or Maine, they'd just stare at it and wonder why they're being served cat food. If I recall correctly, FG, that's what your initial impression of NC barbecue was.

I hate to admit this, but the very first time I cooked a pig, I did it over gas. I slow cooked it for 12 hours, being very careful to keep the temperature low during the first 4 hours. After I flipped the critter onto its back, I basted it from time to time with a typical Eastern NC style vinegar-based sauce. I pulled the pork off. I crisped up the skin. I cut it into the meat. I added a bit more sauce. Did this meat have a smokey flavor? Yes, it did. Was it barbecue? Absolutely. Many of my guests told me it was the best barbecue they ever had (I'm guessing they hadn't had a lot of great barbecue). Was it authentic, full-flavored barbecue? No way. It was still barbecue, however. Oh, and don't worry. I'll be cooking over wood in October.

But that's the very problem with coming up with a definition in the first place. Put a plate of chopped pork seasoned with vinegar and red pepper in front of each of 1,000 North Carolinians. Assume that the pork was cooked over a gas cooker without the use of wood. Don't tell them how it was cooked. Ask them to identify the product in front of them. You'll get 998 responses of "barbecue" (the 2 holdouts just moved here from NY and wouldn't recognize any barbecue). They call it barbecue because of what it is, not how it was cooked. It may be a lesser version of barbecue, but to call it anything different is inappropriate.

Here's some additional guidance: California BBQ Association

Unfortunately, many NC barbecue restaurants do it just that way. Their argument is that the wood doesn't really add that much of a flavor to the meat, particularly once it's chopped and seasoned. I think that this approach results in a flawed and far less tasty barbecue, but it's still considered barbecue to most people.

But must the smoke be derived from something external, such as wood chips? Can the smoke be obtained from the rendered fat, burning on the cooking element?

This is another example of debating something that is irrelevant. Barbecue is what it is. It's self-defined by the product. You can reach some commonality of ingredients and techniques among different types of barbecue, but the variables ultimately overwhelm the dogma. For example, is wood necessary for it to be barbecue? If so, then the majority of NC barbecue joints aren't serving barbecue, because they're doing it over gas or electric cookers. Wood may be essential to "authentic" or "the best" barbecue, but I'm not going to tell the proprietors of Coopers Barbecue in downtown Raleigh that what they're serving isn't barbecue. To be called "barbecue", I'd argue that it must be red meat (i.e., mammalian). It can't be poultry or fish. In those instances, the term "barbecue" is more of an adjective -- e.g., barbecued chicken. I've heard of goat, beef, pork, mutton, and lamb referred to as barbecue. It must be cooked relatively slowly over low heat. This technique is essential, rendering the fat and other connective tissue. Ultimately, barbecue is what we say it is.

Thanks, Zilla!!

I've been making lots of tomato salads/salsas lately, consisting of tomatoes, EVOO, some sort of cheese (feta, smoked mozzarella, fresh mozzarella, goat, blue), fresh herbs, and sea salt, if necessary. For lunch today, I think I'll add some extra EVOO and put this in a still warm baguette. Hot Damn!!!!

Never had Duke's, eh? I have, its good but not Hellmans Them are fightin' words here in the South. Oh, by the way, have you never heard of homemade mayo? That is what makes a blissful 'mater sammich become heavenly.

My most recent trick was to cut the corn off the cob over a towel, which prevents the kernels from flying all over the damn place.

You did? Marlene, in my circle of friends, being bonkers is a necessity!

We have had one good, legitimate design so far, but it's a bit too small and may need some adjustments. Anyone else out there? We'd like to make t-shirts available soon if anyone is interested. If not, let's let this concept fade away.

now we hadn't found that one! we were planning to fly into dulles, spend a day or so in washington and then fly down. don't think we're too insane...we were planning a trip to the us soon, and this seemed like a fun way to do two things. now, i'm trying to think of something suitably delicious and british that we could bring. anything you guys fancy? PS, can we get two t-shirts please? one xl (if there not too big) and one medium? We are about 4-1/2 to 5 hours away from Washington DC, so you could actually come to Raleigh, rent a car, and drive up to DC. You could then come back through the Outer Banks of NC, which are lovely in October. The weather is quite likely to be what English beaches experience in mid-summer! We need to do something on the t-shirts, as that thread has died down. I'll bump it up, but if we want t-shirts, we need designs!!

Any homemade or good quality cobbler I've eaten has been of the biscuit variety. When you go to many meat and 3 restaurants, they'll often offer a cobbler for dessert, and inevitably it's made with pie dough. I go for the banana pudding or coconut cake in those instances.

Amazingly, there are actually non-stop flights between Gatwick and RDU (our airport). And I thought Marlene was bonkers to come from Canada!!! My wife informed me earlier this evening that I sure as hell better make an awesome pig. The pressure is on!!!

you're gunna be shirtless if this keeps up! Nah, I'm all right, since you're coming and bankrolling me.

Yowza!! I'm speechless.

Thus, I had a yellow tomato sandwich with basil mayo, S&P on sourdough. If it weren't for the early dinner I have planned, I would have eaten 4 of these sandwiches.

I actually stopped by a farm, rather than a farmers market, on the way back from eating barbecue, and picked up the best cantelopes I have ever eaten. These melons had an incredible sugar concentration, but they also had a floral flavor that I rarely find anymore. I've got another one ready for breakfast tomorrow!

What amazed me was that the parking lot at the generally inferior Parkers (but with a far more established tradition) was packed. When we left the place at 1, there were people at approximately 5 tables. That's quite slow. Perhaps dinner would have been different. I did not see Ed Mitchell in the building. They were not cooking pigs that morning.