robyn
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Posts posted by robyn
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I have a thesis that there is a "beaten path" for "food experiences" these days. Want to see if it's true - or not.
So I'd like some feedback. How many of you have gone out of your way to eat at a 2 or 3 star Michelin restaurant in recent years - or a restaurant that would probably have 2 or 3 Michelin stars except that the country/city where it's located doesn't have a Michelin guide?
Big cities can count - as long as they're not otherwise tourist destinations (IOW -"86" New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, London, Paris, Rome, Milan, Madrid, Barcelona, etc.). But what I'm really looking for is people who went out of their way to go to places like Trois Gros - a place that is (or used to be) a great restaurant in a dumpy small city. A place you go to only to eat. I suspect 90% of the responses I get here will cite El Bulli - perhaps some places in Italy and France - but maybe I'll be surprised. Robyn
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I might disagree with marcus on some points, but I assign far more value to his choices than to Michelin's. For one thing, he's available to explain his reasoning. Michelin asks for faith but offers no credible reasons to take the leap. For another thing, he has both international perspective and long-time experience in the market in question (I'll disagree with marcus about L'Impero as soon as I hear one knowledgeable Italian gourmet say it's a great restaurant). Do the Michelin inspectors? Some of their looney choices indicate that they are, as a group, rather clueless. Of course we don't know who they are. And for still another thing, marcus isn't overreaching: he's offering opinions about what he knows, not trying to be an authority about what he doesn't know.
This is a rather parochial view of the world when speaking about Michelin (or similar guides - like Gault Millau/Gayot) and the world in general from a travelers' point of view. I am not sure that anyone who lives in a particular city needs a Michelin guide for his/her home turf (although a Zagat's is handy for addresses and phone numbers and the like). The main value of a guide - any guide - comes into play when you are traveling in a strange city - and - especially - in a strange country where you do not speak the language. You may value Marcus' opinion (and it may be an extremely informed opinion) - but assuming you're talking about a traveler to New York who doesn't speak English - his opinion is worthless to that traveler.
And turn this on its head. What happens when someone like you or me goes to a strange country where we do not speak the language? Sure - there's a "pilgrimage trail" of perhaps several dozen major restaurants in countries like France and Spain that have reams written about them in English. But what then?
I traveled to one major country this year (Japan) and am traveling to another next year (Germany) where there is almost zilch (or zilch) written about major restaurants in informed reviews in English - not even 3 star Michelin restaurants in Germany - or restaurants that would be 3 star Michelin restaurants in Japan if Japan had a Michelin guide. So if I have problems on this end - I can imagine how hard it is for someone from Japan or Germany who doesn't speak English - or serviceable English (and I'm sure most people in those countries don't) to find anything written about New York restaurants that's more informative than a Michelin star or stars - or Gault Millau/Gayot toques - or the like.
Take the New York Michelin guide for what it is. A useful - but not perfect - guide for travelers who think your city is worth a visit - and that certain restaurants in your city are worthy of their patronage. It's quite serviceable when viewed in that light - particularly at the upper end of the guidance. Robyn
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We'll be in Germany for 2 weeks - and I'm sure we'll wind up eating lots of different kinds of food. So any suggestions are welcome. When I get to some serious reading about restaurants in 2007 - I know I'll have a lot more questions. In the meantime - I'm getting ready to go to the big game tomorrow (Florida/Georgia). GO GATORS
! Robyn -
Well..... I don't know that there was any quibbling.. I'm pretty sure all the visitor guides will tell you that 5th Avenue is the middle... any address says XXX WEST 46th Street or XXX EAST 53rd St, etc., so I think it's pretty obvious... I mean come on Michelin, it's a grid.
And Per Se is in the very same building with the same address, and they listed it correctly, as Midtown West. It's probably just a stupid mistake, made it into the press releases, let's see if it made it into print. It's just ironic.
I think you've got the nomenclature mixed up too - "midtown" is a north-south, not east-west, distinction. Midtown is what's in between uptown and downtown. Midtown West is that chunk from 5th to the Hudson. Midtown East is that chunk from 5th to the East River. Midtown West or Clinton, it will always be Hell's Kitchen to me
Semantics aside, you're preaching to the choir about the value proposition - when Masa opened, with it's hefty price-tag, I think I was the one arguing the loudest that to enjoy dinner and drink at Masa was the same price as off-peak airfare between NY and Tokyo, so you might as well go see for yourself.
That said, according to Michelin, money is no object; it's purely about what is on the plate. And a lot of people don't have the time or money to be going to Japan, although you'd think the type of person who can afford Masa does. I haven't been there yet (have been dying to), but have heard an overwhelming amount of positive food intel, from both Japanese and non-, and being that it is such a feast where you are getting both quality and quantity in an "ethereal" setting, with the attention to detail they strive for, I'm sure they're aspiring for a third star. The restaurant has 26 seats, they MUST be obsessed with quality control.
Don't assume Masa has all their "stuff" flown in from Japan, the top NY sushi places use sources from all over and usually the fish coming from Japan are those which are only in season or exclusive to that market and those fish suitable to the flash-freezng process as well - that's why Yasuda-san can serve you an uni simultaneously from the North Atlantic and the North Pacific...
I tend to agree with your assessment of Kaiseki in general, but I think at a solid kaiseki like Sugiyama, it's a non-issue, it's always going to taste better than it looks. Megu suffers from sometimes sacrificing flavor for excessively flashy presentation. So it's too bad you haven't had delicious kaiseki - it's supposed to be delicious!
What tourists pay $350 in NY instead of $200 in Tokyo for is Masa - while sushi is a collective process from fish market to plate, there is the artisan who puts it all together and by all accounts there are few better than Masa. And of course you are paying a premium having some of the best fish in the world brought to you here in NY.
Now are the stars a rating on complexity, that could be their sixth stated meaning...
I know how the streets work in Manhattan. Doesn't mean Michelin has to follow the conventions exactly. But if they put Per Se in one location - and Masa in another - that's just wrong (I'd like to know when I'm using a guidebook that 2 places that are in the same building are in the same neighborhood).
I guess if I lived in or near NYC - wanted high end Japanese food of a particular type - and didn't have the time or inclination to go to Japan - I'd try Masa. I do have to point out that many high end Japanese restaurants in Japan (lower end restaurants too) tend to be really small. We had meals at places with fewer than 15 seats (like 10 - maybe 12). With master chefs. Now granted - I had never heard of these chefs before - and I doubt many people in the US - even the most ardent Japanese food enthusiasts - have either. It is because we in the US have almost no knowledge of dining in Japan. That is partially the result of the huge language barrier. Not only do we not (in general) speak any Japanese - the Japanese don't (in general) speak any English. There is very little written in the English language media about high end dining in Japan. And - more importantly - a large % of the chefs in these restaurants do not want patrons who don't speak Japanese. Some don't even want non-Japanese patrons who do speak Japanese. So many aren't open to the average tourist. You have to make inquiries with concierge staffs about which restaurants are available to you for reservations.
If this sounds intimidating - well it can be at times. On the other hand - one day we stumbled into a tempura restaurant in Tokyo which we loved. We later found out the chef was famous. Absolutely no one who worked in the restaurant spoke a word of English. Luckily - my husband speaks a little Japanese - one of the four other patrons spoke a little English - and with the help of the chef (who was not only famous - but friendly) - we had a great time. So I agree with you that serious Japanese food enthusiasts should take that trip to Japan.
I've never eaten Japanese food in New York. At a place like Sugiyama - why do you think the food tastes better than it looks? We did have some delicious "kaiseki" in Japan - but it was more on the lines of "French fusion kaiseki" - as opposed to authentic traditional kaiseki. And the French fusion kaiseki usually tasted better than it looked too. At the most authentic traditional restaurant we ate at - the first course was a perfect model of a Japanese garden during cherry blossom season. It tasted as good as a dish can taste when it only has about 100 calories total
- although I did get to sample some very unusual things that grow and are served only in the spring - vegetables - ferns - etc.).By the way - if you think Michelin doesn't do justice to Japanese restaurants here - imagine how it might botch up its first guide to Japan! Robyn
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quick question:
is it literally true that when Michelin first introduces a guide for a new area that no restaurant in that area gets more than a star?
I have a hard time believing that has ever been the case. I'm willing to lay some cash down that it's a myth.
Further, I'm also willing to bet that when an already established chef opens a new restaurant...that that restaurant may well open with more than one star...even in Paris.
I think Steve pretty much said what I meant.
I can only speak of the 70's and 80's (which I believe reflect the years before - but not after). Only left North America once in the 90's (UK). Back then - Michelin was an entirely European French-centric institution. And although perhaps some chefs started with more than 1 star (maybe not - I'm not familiar with every new restaurant during those years) - none of the "superstars" of that era with whom I'm familiar did. You're not talking about really old chefs from that era either. Many are about my age (in their 50's - perhaps early 60's).
Moreover - there were either no - or relatively few - "new guides". The red guides had been around in certain countries for years - and missing from others. I wouldn't bet my life on it - but I think this expansion of Michelin into the US is probably its largest expansion in terms of country coverage in decades. Whenever I went to a country in Europe - there was either an established Michelin guide - or there wasn't. I think one of the big advances back then was a Michelin guide which covered the larger cities in Europe - and it provided the first coverage of some major cities in countries which didn't have country Michelin guides (and probably still don't).
Finally - the idea of a famous established chef opening a new restaurant was pretty much unknown except when the chef was simply changing location (like Senderens moving from the purple dump Archestrate into the opulent Lucas Carton location - and he carried his stars with him from his old location to his new one). There certainly wasn't any concept of a chef opening multiple locations (I think - am not sure - that Ducasse was the first really famous chef who did that in the 90's) - or what are basically franchises (like Robuchon is doing now). Like they say - it's a whole new ball game. Chefs gone wild
. Robyn -
"They even got the neighborhood wrong for Masa, listing it as Midtown East. Think they went?"
yes, I think they went. as for the neighborhood listings...a lot of them are weird. but they're not so weird once you realize that they're written for tourists.
as for Yasuda, yeah, I'm surprised that it didn't get a star...but you haven't explained, imo, why Masa would merit three as opposed to two...which is a great honor.
There's weird and there's just plain wrong. The Time Warner Center is now one of the epicenters of the West Side - it's between 8th and 9th, why in the world would it be listed as Midtown East, they just f'ed up. As for the others neighborhood listings, what's weird about them? They're accurate if you limit yourself to the broadly defined neighborhoods that they do -
As for Masa, I said "but Masa is on another level, an intimate shrine, comparable to a chef's table if you are at the counter in front of Masa, and a tasting menu tailored for each diner with seasonal ingredients of impeccable quality and preparation...so yeah, I kind of think it deserves 3 stars"... read all the other reviews, NYT 4-stars, and the other automotive-gastro Mobil gave him 5-stars, on any other list he'd be at the top...
I'd venture to say that there has got to be French culinary pride involved, not wanting to recognize that Japanese cuisine has been replacing it in that upper-echelon...is maybe why Masa can't break 2?
Only New Yorkers could quibble so much about the proper way to describe the location of the TWC. It is definitely midtown. At 1 Central Park at Columbus Circle. It is close to most tourists staying in hotel areas midtown on the east side - particularly those hotels on or near Central Park South. If anything - the guide has done the restaurant a favor - since my perception is more tourists stay on the east side (not the far east side but the east side) than the west side (I've stayed at the Trump once - usually I'm on the east side). And if you're staying on the east side - you'll figure this place isn't too far away (which it isn't).
As for Japanese food versus French food - I don't think it's simply a matter of French culinary pride. I am not anything near an expert when it comes to Japanese food - but I did spend 3 weeks in Japan this year eating some pretty high class food (which was fresh in the market that morning - unlike the stuff that Masa gets flown in). I find Japanese food delightful - and it suits the way I generally like to eat these days - but it is simply not as complex an undertaking as French food. Except when it comes to kaiseki meals - which Masa doesn't serve. Moreover - even with kaiseki meals - in my opinion they are to food what conceptual art is to art. Refined - usually very ascetic. Exquisitely prepared and visually pleasing - yes. Delicious - no. An intellectual as opposed to a sensory experience.
Note that part of the problem with Masa (as a restaurant in general) based on what I've read is that they're serving certain Japanese food for about twice what you pay for it in Japan. Shipping costs a lot. And the fish is still less fresh than what you get in Japan (we ate fish at noon that was at the market 3 hours earlier). Not that the restaurants in Japan are cheap - but I doubt many tourists who are seriously interested in Japanese food are going to spend $500 in New York for what they can get for $200 in Tokyo these days (and if you're talking about fish - as opposed to putting foie gras and truffles on the fish - which is basically a French affectation - that's about what you'll spend). Robyn
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"They even got the neighborhood wrong for Masa, listing it as Midtown East. Think they went?"
yes, I think they went. as for the neighborhood listings...a lot of them are weird. but they're not so weird once you realize that they're written for tourists.
as for Yasuda, yeah, I'm surprised that it didn't get a star...but you haven't explained, imo, why Masa would merit three as opposed to two...which is a great honor.
you know, in a perverse sort of way, I think two-star Michelin restaurants are screwed.
people understand that one is an honor and many are happy just to have that.
three is understood as the creme de la creme...but we treat two stars as meaning that they fell short of three....which I think in Michelin's view is entirely the wrong way to look at it.
I see this misunderstanding all over the place. for example, this blogger couldn't understand why there would be an equal number of two and three star michelin restaurants (last year):
http://augieland.blogs.com/augie_land/2005..._silly_fre.html
Part of the problem is that Michelin just doesn't work the way it used to. Years back - it was usual (I can't say it always happened - but I saw it a lot) for a new restaurant to start with 1 star. If my memory isn't failing me - I ate at Jamin when it was relatively new (open maybe a year) and had 1 star. I made a reservation at a place like L'Esperance after it had received a second star - and by the time I got to the restaurant months later - it had received a third.
In other words - there was a progression. And there was certainly no shame in a 1 star restaurant receiving a second star (although restaurants which lost a third star and wound up with 2 could be very demoralized - some that lost the third fought back and regained the third - some didn't). Some restaurants stayed delighted with their 2 star status - others aspired to the third. In my opinion - it was a process that allowed chefs and restaurants to grow and mature. Some did it quickly - others were late bloomers. It was a variable process.
Flash forward 20 or so years and now it is instant everything. Restaurants want instant success. Diners (and many people who do restaurant reviews) want instant access to what they think are the best new restaurants - the minute they open. Michelin wants to make a big splash now - so the idea of an orderly star progression in a new market isn't appealing. Even the idea of giving a brand new restaurant at most 1 star simply because it is brand new isn't appealing in a market like New York because that restaurant may well be closed - or the chef will have left - by the time the restaurant might be ready for a second.
Some of this is understandable. Everyone has a lot more money at stake - the restaurants - the diners - Michelin. The idea of a Senderens opening what he hoped would be a fine food restaurant in a purple dump like Archestrate (and staying there for a time even when he had 3 stars) would be laughable today. Still - I am not sure that - in the long run - this makes for better chefs and better restaurants. That's one reason why the world (not only Las Vegas) is seeing an increasing number of fine chefs in hotel restaurants - the hotels provide financial stability that most chefs could not afford if they opened restaurants on their own. I used to laugh at hotel restaurants. These days they frequently merit my most serious consideration.
Perhaps the area where these changes are most negative is that of consistency. I have had this dispute with Steve many times. He thinks it's ok for a restaurant to have an off night - where a diner is disappointed. He thinks it's ok that a dish comes out not right - and that I should have to send it back. I disagree in the rarified world of Michelin 2 and 3 star restaurants. I only eat in each of these places once in my life - and so do most other people if they are dining "on the road". If my meal isn't uniformly excellent (I hope for exquisite but rarely get it these days) - then the restaurant doesn't deserve 2 or 3 stars. I think this need for consistency was a lesson chefs and restaurants learned when they had to work to earn each star - and the second was harder than the first - and the third was except for a handful an impossible goal. It was a useful lesson - and it seems to me that a lot of so-called "big deal" chefs and restaurants these days have never learned it. Robyn
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The question was answered last night when I got 2 reward businessfirst tickets departing on May 26. So late spring it is. Luckily - I found out in retrospect that we are arriving the day after a big national soccer final in Berlin (otherwise we would have had plane tickets - but no hotel room). So late spring food it is.
Any restaurants in Berlin - Munich or Cologne that need reservations this far in advance - or can I wait until sometime in 2007 to start thinking about restaurants? I've emailed the hotel in Bensberg - and will see what offerings they'll have when we'll be there. Robyn
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Spring peas too? And funny little ferns? And spring lamb? That would make it *really* tough. I know fall is game season. And that's good too. But I really love the things that are around in the spring - including spring flowers. About when does the weather kind of shape up? How about mid-May or so?
Unless the weather is really nasty - I'm inclined to go in the spring - because I got very nervous about hurricane season in 2005. Japan was easy - the spring (because I wasn't going to leave my home in hurricane season to go to another country where it was typhoon season!). Robyn
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Robyn:
I live in NY. are there 40 or so restaurants in NY that are better than DB&D...yes, imo there are (and I've been VIP'ed out the wazoo at DB&D thanks to people in my party being certain notable individuals)
I travel on a regular basis. When I do so I consult all relevant food sources (this includes Michelin...if applicable....egullet, various regional guides and even Frommers and Fodors on occasion (I'm going to Venice, Florence and Verona next week and the advice I'm getting from EG exactly replicates the listings in Frommers))....the one thing that I never ever consult is Zagat.
Perhaps no one understands what I'm saying. When you travel - do you make a reservation for every meal you're going to eat? Or plan every minute of every day? I don't (usually just a couple of big deal meal reservations and maybe some theater tickets). The rest is up in the air. So I walk out of a museum in a particular city I don't know well (if at all) at noon. There's a cute little shopping street nearby. So I want to eat lunch "in the neighborhood".
At which point 1 of 2 things happens. I take the Zagat's or Michelin red guide out of my purse and search the neighborhood I'm in for a likely place to eat. Or I spot a likely place - and look it up in the Zagat's or Michelin red guide (not for a critical review - but to get a general idea whether the place is a dump or a hidden gem or something in between).
I'll give you a good example of this. We were leaving the Cantor Museum during a recent trip to Palo Alto. Looked up a place for lunch - and lo and behold - the Cool Cafe *in the museum* had a nice write-up in Zagat's. So we took a look. Had a nice lunch. Now this cafe was mentioned in a NYT article (which was posted on the wall) - but I don't think I would have found it without a Zagat's in my purse.
Do these little books that I slip into my purse take the place of reading more in-depth critical reviews - especially when I'm making big deal reservations? No (I'm particularly partial to those in local media - which I read on line - and chat boards - but use others on occasion). But they are very handy travel guides. That's all I'm saying.
As for your statement that you'd never consult Zagat's - perhaps you've never had occasion to visit a city where it was useful. I thought it was pretty useful - for example - in Tokyo. Too bad the Osaka guide is only in Japanese. Guess I'm just not orthodox about things. If there's something portable that will help me get even one decent meal in an unfamiliar city - I'll buy it.
As for DB&D - I had a terrific meal there a bit more than 2 years ago. The way NY restaurants change - I haven't a clue what it was like 6 months later - much less today. Perhaps the frenzied pace of New York restaurant "musical chairs" explains why Michelin in New York feels compelled to grant stars to restaurants like A Voce which has been open for what - maybe 6-7 months now? And to continue its star for Cafe Boulud - even though its chef is now the chef at A Voce and Cafe Boulud has a new chef. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Do you think that Michelin should wait a decent amount of time - like - for example - a year - before it awards stars to new restaurants? And should it take them away when the chef who earned the star leaves? Robyn
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Took a look at the Althoff web site - and these both look like nice hotels with excellent restaurants. There is in fact a special 2 night package where you can stay at one hotel - and eat dinner at both restaurants (with a limo ride from the hotel where you're staying to the other). And you can extend the stay to 3 nights - which would be a huge plus for me since there's no way I can do 2 3 star meals on consecutive nights (too much food and drink).
The locations turn out to be somewhat irrelevant - since it seems like that 5 minute walk from the train station to the Bensberg is hilly. My husband has a bad knee - and hills - both up and down - really kill him. The cab to and from the Lerbach might be easier for him on day trips to Cologne proper. Looks like both hotels are equally convenient to the Cologne airport - which we would be flying into - or out of. My husband's knee is one reason I'm rethinking Prague - I don't think he can handle the combination of hills and cobblestones.
So right now - I am starting to outline a 2 week trip covering Berlin, Munich and Cologne. Probably early next September (I really want to avoid Oktoberfest in Munich - I don't like crowds - and that starts on September 22). Late spring might work too. Is there any reason to prefer late spring to early fall (or vice versa) in these parts of Germany? Robyn
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imho, Michelin does that better than Zagat.
if a restaurant is included in Michelin it is almost certainly "decent"....certainly not so for Zagat.
I assume - but can't be sure - that you live in NY. When was the last time you went outside whatever city/country you live in for an extended trip? What was that city - and what restaurant guide did you use?
I find the Zagat number ratings quite adequate for picking "not big deal" restaurants when I'm traveling in the US. I especially like the restaurant listings by geographical areas.
I have found Michelin red guides to be very useful in Europe - but no one can tell me that that a lot of the Michelin one star restaurants in New York are better than David Burke & Donatella. I just don't think that Michelin has its act together in the US as of today. Robyn
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I have been to both, Restaurant Dieter Müller in Schlosshotel Lerbach and Restaurant Vendome in Schlosshotel Bensberg. I recommend them both, they are excellent. Both Grand Hotels belong to the same owner (Althoff), they are very close geographically to each other and the two chefs are competing. Althoff understands that these prestigious restaurtants attract people into his hotels so he is apparently funding them very well and his chefs can concentrate on cooking and do not have to worry too much about being profitable and making money in the restaurant, i.e. diners get a good deal. That is not to say that it is cheap, tasting menus are around 100 to 140 Euros.
Dieter Müller is much older (in his 50s), he's been on top for decades now, whereas Vendome-chef Joachim Wissler is young and ambitious. He got his third Michelin star only two or three years ago.
Both have three Michelin stars, Gault Millau, the other influential guide in Germany, has 19.5 of 20 points for Müller and 19 out of 20 for Wissler.
It's difficult to pin down the difference in cuisine, Wissler maybe being slightly more innovative. Müller definitely has the nicer restaurant in a conservatory-like annex to Schlosshotel Lerbach, very beautiful. Lerbach is the smaller, more intimate Hotel, Bensberg is huge.
With Müller and Wissler the Cologne area has more high-end-dining than Frankfurt. If I were you, I'd look into Munich as well.
Are you familiar with the hotels? Which is nicer? Took a look at these websites - and it might be fun to stay at one of the hotels - eat at both restaurants over perhaps a 3-4 day period - go to Cologne and perhaps some areas outside the city for a little sightseeing - and then catch a flight home out of the Cologne airport (both places seem pretty close to the airport). Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
Only fly in the ointment is I think we will need a car for this - and my husband has bad memories of his last driving in Germany (he wasn't used to the speed limits on the autobahn). But if I rent him a car with a GPS - and say please in a nice way - I think I can convince him
. Robyn -
Zagat? are you kidding?
http://www.zagat.com/about/about.aspx?menu=PR67
this is a better list? it's not a year or so behind the times...it's just wrong. LB is not the best restaurant in the city. maybe it was 10 years ago. GT never was. ditto for Grocery.
it is not that the Michelin list is by any means perfect...
but it is the only serious list.
But who wants to buy a list - particularly when you can look up the starred restaurants on line? What I am looking for as a traveler is a comprehensive restaurant guide that I can stick in my purse - and use as a reference - especially for non-big deal restaurants where I don't need reservations in advance. Like I walk out of a museum - it's lunch time - and I'm looking for a decent place within a ten minute walk. Zagat's performs this function in the US - and the Michelin Red Guides do it in Europe (not sure anyone does it adequately outside of North America and Europe). Robyn
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woow what allot of nice feedback, it sounds like i'm best of with a Japanese friend there.
I know a Japanese Chef going home to Kyoto for Christmas, maybe it's best to take contact with him , i just don't wanna be a leech, and then only go to Kyoto for this time.
Also when i asked for gourmet tours, i didn't mean like big groups, more like they give some advice to what is possible in the different area's.
You don't have to be a leech. Get your own hotel room (I stayed in the Granvia in the train station and really liked it - the train station is huge and modern - complete with a department store with several food floors - and dozens of shops and restaurants underground). Take his family to dinner. Bring them gifts (gifts are very important in Japan). Help in the kitchen if there are family dinners.
Then ask him for some introductions in other places you might want to visit. Heck - as a chef - perhaps it might be fun to volunteer to work in the kitchen of a Japanese restaurant for a few days.
By the way - I think you'll find more English in Tokyo than most places in Japan - but you won't find a lot. Robyn
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As you can imagine - this all sounds like "Greek" to me right now - since I have no concept of the country and its geography. Picked up my first travel guide today. Luckily - it has a map! The new Michelin Green Guide for Germany will be out in about 5 weeks - and I will pick up a copy when it's released.
I haven't been to continental Europe for a very long time (many more recent trips to the UK). But I used to like using the Michelin Red Guides when I traveled there - not even so much for starred restaurants (which everyone used to know about - and which you can now read about on line) as for the comprehensive listings of all kinds of restaurants. So if you leave a museum at noon - and want to find a decent but not big deal restaurant in the neighborhood - you have some help. Have any of you used the Red Guide to Germany - and do you find it worthwhile?
Also - have any of you used the Time Out Guides to cities in Germany? I found the Tokyo guide useful because of its excellent maps - but thought the restaurant information was kind of dated.
Finally - I have kind of a delicate question. For years - as a Jew - I always felt ill at ease traveling in certain parts of continental Europe - and avoided some because of family history. Even places which seemed ok - like Norway - wound up not seeming ok - well "not ok" isn't the correct phrase - "out of the mainstream" is more like it - because - although I think the Norwegians were heroic in their resistance - they really didn't have much to do with the Holocaust (there simply weren't many Jews in Norway - or people for that matter - it's a really small country!). Then I started to read some new things - about the Jewish Museum in Berlin - the first ordained rabbis in Germany (in ages) - stuff like that. And I figured it was time for me to a take a look.
Anyway - my question is - I have read that there is now such a thing as Holocaust tourism by Jews visiting certain parts of continental Europe. Frankly - the idea doesn't sit well with me. Don't think I can handle it. But I wonder if anyone here has done anything like that - and whether it's something worth doing - even though it is undoubtedly a very sad trip into a very sad part of history. Note that this would be kind of "generic" travel for me. Looking at things in general. Wouldn't have anything to do with my family. Half came from Poland - half from Russia (think Fiddler on the Roof
). None of my family is left in those places now - so I am not interested in tracing my particular "roots". It's just that if I'm in this part of the world - I don't want to miss things that I should see - even if they're personally painful. I've seen enough of continental Europe to know that WWI and WWII were terrible for millions of people - but have avoided confronting personal pain for a very long time. Since this question really isn't food-related - it's probably best to PM me with any responses. Robyn -
Perhaps the mods want to link this thread and the "Methylcellulose" thread. I just thought I'd post here since it's newer. Both threads have some good information.
Anyway, I received some Dow Methocel today in a few different formulations. The advantage of the the Dow products is that each formulation has a distinct gelling temperature and thickening power.
Where did you buy the Dow Methocel? Robyn
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Gilbert - I am not a big fan of tours. Think about it. Some of the best restaurants in Japan have 15 seats. They are not interested in tours.
My husband and I traveled alone - and we did ok by ourselves. One reason we did ok is I spent a fair amount of time learning about dining in Japan before we left. Another reason is my husband studied Japanese before we left. I think what he did was more important than what I did. Because there is very little English (or any language other than Japanese) spoken in Japan.
So I think the single most important thing you can do before you leave is learn some Japanese (my husband used the Pimsleur tapes - order yours tomorrow
).The second most important thing you can do is make some friends here (or anywhere else you can) with people who live in Japan - and invite them to be your guests and to dine with you. They can help you with the food - and the Japanese.
I cannot emphasize enough how important the language is. There are many excellent restaurants in Japan where you can't even make a reservation if you don't speak Japanese. And you will enjoy everyday restaurants more if you speak some of the language.
I also recommend buying a couple of books about Japanese food and ingredients - food dictionaries. And an excellent website for eating ideas is http://bento.com. Also - stay in hotels with good concierge staffs. They can help point out places you might not otherwise find.
By the way - if you go to Kyoto - we met an excellent English speaking guide there. If you are traveling alone - it might be worth your while to engage him for some sightseeing. And perhaps to accompany you to restaurants.
Also - Japan is a very very safe country. Easy to get around. Even if you don't speak the language - you won't have any problems. It's just that you will enjoy your trip more if you do speak a little. Robyn
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Thanks for all this information. I'm looking at airline flights - trains - hotels - and maps. Right now - I am kind of thinking of Berlin/Prague/Munich - then Frankfurt or Cologne. The last 2 are cities where I can catch a flight home. I've seen a reference to Cologne here - can anyone compare it with Frankfurt? Robyn
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Ok - let me back off a bit. When we were in Hamburg - we went to - among other places - a very traditional restaurant and ate the most traditional meal on the menu. A lady next to us who was perhaps 80 or so remarked that it was so nice to see "young people" eating traditional food. That meal kind of felt like a lead sinker in my stomach for the next 3 days.
But I am willing to give it another try - as long as I can avoid the "lead sinker" feeling. I realize that a lot of this traditional food (like that made by my grandmothers - who were both from nearby areas in Europe) was meant to be eaten by people who did a lot of physical work in cold weather - where you could simply burn it off. But I tend not to travel in cold weather - or do a lot of physical work while traveling - so a bit lighter would work better for me.
Other than wanting to avoid feeling weighted down - or overdosing on salt - I am pretty much up for anything in terms of eating.
FWIW - other than the "lead sinker" meal - we really had a great time in Hamburg (despite the dreary late October weather). Even though it was more than a decade ago - probably closer to two decades - I remember the harbor tour - the war monuments - the main art museum (forget the name - but remember the paintings) - the great service in the hotel (Intercontinental - they did amazing things in terms of putting in an internet connection for me) - my husband having a good time speaking Italian in a decent Italian restaurant - and the outrageous sex show
. Only sex show I've ever been to - and I can assure the ladies in the audience that sex shows in Hamburg are very non-sexist - there will be something for him - and something for you too . I realize that Hamburg probably isn't the best tourist city in Germany - so if I had a good time there - I can probably have a good time anywhere in Germany RobynI wouldn't say you've made a mistake by ordering the most traditional food in an old traditional Hamburgian restaurant, but each traditional restaurant there (like all over Germany) has it's own most traditional food. Because hard working habitues in those restaurants will order all time the same hearty dish, so "lead sinkers" are normally the top seller and therefore the most traditional dish. When you are here and you'll go into a "traditional Restaurant" think first about what type of food you like and what you dislike, than ask for traditionally made. I myself for instance don't like pork so I do not order pork dishes even when the utmost traditional food on the manual. In Hamburg and the surroundings are normally fish or lamb dishes the most traditional ones, because of the sea and the meadows flooded by tidal floods. But fish there (for instance "Finkenwerder Scholle") might also be very greasy because of using lard and greasy ham for frying.
It will be helpfull to know where you plan to go to for informations about traditional food there.
Going to Berlin and ordering the most traditional food in traditional restaurants you'll get a cooked whole cured pig knockle with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut and yello peas puree (Berliner Eisbein) or fried veal liver with mashed potatoes, apple slices and fried onions (Leber Berliner Art).
Don't have any definite plans yet - that's why I'm asking questions here
.If I asked you to plan a trip of 3 larger cities in Germany that would show different aspects/views of the country - which 3 would you pick? I really want to see Berlin - and have already been to Hamburg. Are there any smaller cities or large towns that you would recommend in addition to the larger cities. I realize that Germany is a large country - and we can only see a small part of it in perhaps 2 weeks. Note that I love art - and my husband loves beer
.And it would probably be best for us not to drive - to take trains instead. Recently - we have found it a much more pleasant way to travel than driving (when we drive - my husband is the driver - and I am the navigator - and it is very tiring trying to navigate in a country where the language on the road isn't your native language). Robyn
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regarding the argumente that an "african cookbook" is racist because it fails to differentiate among the various african cuisines: this follows a long history in publishing. cuisines are usually introduced in overviews (Chinese, French, Italian, American) and then if the market proves willing, later books will delve into regional differences (Tuscan, Sichuan, Provencal, Californian). it's just business. my guess is that a cookbook on malian cuisine, no matter how well done, would sell about 500 copies. Ethiopian might do somewhat better, because it seems to have more exposure ... or is that just in los angeles?
and please, don't take this the wrong way, but wouldn't the aspiration to become an haute-cuisine chef be predicated in large part on having attended haute-cuisine restaurants? At least in Southern California, I'd be shocked if the percentage of diners at great restaurants came anywhere near 13%. I'd guess it's more like 5%. My impression is that this is somewhat better in Manhattan, what is it like in other parts of the country?
and since this is such a touchy topic, please let me say very plainly that i'm certainly not accusing those restaurants of being racist--they'll take anyone with a phone to make reservations and a credit card to pay the bill. it just goes back to my original argument that everyone might not hold the culinary profession in the same glamorous light that we do.
Have to laugh - because I've never thrown away a cookbook. I have on my shelves one called "Favorite Recipes from the Unted Nations" - copyright 1951 - published by the United States Committee for the United Nations. Two or three recipes from each of perhaps 100 countries (many of which either don't exist these days - or have new names - a fair number in Africa).
I don't know why Americans should be criticized for learning only a little bit about lots of exotic places - when probably most people in most other countries (including a fair number that are supposed to be "foodie countries") are almost 100% parochial. How many African restaurants are you going to find in places like Spain - or Italy? Are there any African cookbooks published in Spanish or Italian? How many Algerian cookbooks have been published in France?
I think that - overall - Americans are pretty good sports about trying new stuff. Even if it's a waterered down or not 100% authentic version of this - that - or the other thing that winds up in Ruby Tuesday's. Found pretty much the same "we'll try anything" attitude in Japan. But - I think the US and Japan are fairly unusual in the scheme of things. Robyn
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Sorry about the reference to litigation. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal - which was mentioned here on Egullet. When Wikipedia wrote you up - it said - "[h]e is currently pursuing a complaint in a case of culinary plagiarism ostensibly committed by a former protege." Maybe when you get some time you can edit your Wikipedia entry <smile>.
If I understand you correctly - what you really object to is developing a dish - and then having another person passing it off as his own creation. Yes?
We recently went to a new restaurant in California called Tanglewood. It has a fair number of descriptions on its menu like this:
SWEET CORN AND CHANTERELLE "RISOTTO", JEREMIAH'S
BLACK BEAN CAKE - 11
(Vegetarian twist on a Jeremiah Tower Classic)
And this:
ROASTED SUMMER STEW, FRESH RICOTTA GNOCCHI
OR MARINATED TOFU - 15
(Hearty vegetarian or vegan selection, inspired by the Indian vegetarian dish, baingan bartha - a slowly-simmered ragout made from fire-roasted eggplant, tomatoes, onions, garlic, and spices. Gnocchi inspired by Judy Rodgers' recipe from Zuni Cafe)
And this:
BUTTERMILK FRIED WOLFE QUAIL, JICAMA, CARROT, AND CABBAGE SLAW, WITH HONEY BUTTERED MINI BISCUITS - 15 / 27
(The biscuit recipe is a tribute to James Beard's favorite biscuit recipe- his mother's)
Would you object if another restaurant took one of your ideas - and gave you credit for the dish on its menu the way Tanglewood does? Robyn
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You have been quite outspoken about culinary "plagiarism" - especially when you think that people are copying your dishes.
Can you tell us what you think the boundaries are in terms of what a chef should or shouldn't do when it comes to another chef's ideas and creations?
I understand that you may currently be involved in litigation about this issue - so if you prefer not to answer - I understand. Robyn
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Robyn
First--there are traditions.
Every industry has them. traditions are usually evolving and changing as times change.
You may want to use "racist" and "sexist" to describe some of these I prefer to reserve those very serious terms to situations warranting them. I believe we tend to devalue them...
I don't use these terms lightly. There have indeed been successful Title VII cases against restaurants which discriminated against women servers (like Joe's Stone Crabs in Miami). Perhaps the discrimination was part of a certain "tradition" - but it was wrong and illegal. Likewise - McCormick & Schmick’s was sued for race discirmination earlier this year. And I'm sure there are similar cases. Robyn
2007 Michelin New York
in New York: Dining
Posted
Well I think the average eGullet user (much less the average person who doesn't know that much about food) needs a guide to tell me the 3 arguably best restaurants in cities like Tokyo (and probably more widely traveled cities like London or Paris or Madrid as well). So it is probable that the average Japanese or British or French or Spanish traveler needs a similar guide to places in the US. If you walk into a high class restaurant in a major city like Tokyo or Berlin - or even London - and mention Per Se - you'll probably be met with a blank stare.
Now that guide doesn't necessarily have to be Michelin. Perhaps there are "Fuji" guides in Japan written in Japanese that help Japanese tourists. All I'm saying is that because a guide isn't 100% perfect doesn't mean that it's not useful to travelers.
Where would you have non-US residents look for useful information about US restaurants? Do you object to guide books in general - or just Michelin? And do you object to Michelin just in the US - or in other places too?
Keep in mind that what you said about languages is a big myth. Americans who generally speak not 10 words of any foreign language like to think that just about everyone everywhere else speaks English as a second, third or fourth language. I have found this in general not to be true once one leaves concierge desks in better hotels. I have been to 3 star restaurants in France (as well as places outside restaurants) where almost no - or no English - is spoken. Ditto in Italy and Spain. Central America. Even Miami
. Certainly there are about as many people in Japan who speak passable English as there are people in the US who speak passable Japanese (even the Japanese people who come to visit my town to play big deal golf usually don't speak a word of English). And although I was assured this was not the case in Germany - I am having language difficulties communicating with reservations desks at luxury hotels in Germany in email. All in all - I've found the only countries where one can depend on excellent English as a second or third language are - for example - those in Scandinavia (it's important to learn a second or third language which is "major" when the primary language in your country is spoken by a relatively small number of people).
If many (wealthy) Japanese were so conversant with English - why does every Gucci store in the US (even the one in Palm Beach) have a sales person who speaks fluent Japanese?
I guess what I'm saying is I don't get the point of this discussion. If it's that people who live in New York and speak English know more about the restaurants in New York than the people who've been working on a Michelin guide for all of 2 years now - ok - I can buy that. If it's that guides like Michelin (and others) and Michelin's star system (and other "star systems" - like Gault/Millau's toques) aren't useful for travelers - I can't buy that. Robyn