robyn
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Posts posted by robyn
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I believe that if you live in San Francisco - and are commuting to Menlo Park - you will be "reverse commuting" (most people will be going in the opposite direction at rush hour). At least that was my perception when we were staying in Palo Alto last fall and driving around the area (although we stayed in the general area - and didn't go into the city - on an earlier trip - we stayed in the city). Someone more familiar with the area can correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes you are. Wrong, that is. Have you heard that SF is a bedroom community for Silicon Valley?
I did that commute, SF-Silicon valley for years up until earlier last year. I lived in Pacific Heights, far further north than where Carolyn lives. And let me tell you getting to Caltrain -on the rare days I took the train to work- wasn't easy. I either had to drive across town and leave my car at a carpark near the station, or it would mean 45+ minutes bus ride to the train station. That meant something like 2 hours door-door.
If your husband is planning on commuting by train to work I suggest the area near Caltrain on 4th and King. There are plenty of new lofts, if that's your style. You can walk to the farmers market at the Ferry Plaza, and a few other restaurants nearby. The street cars are pretty easy from there as well.
Another community I'd recommend is south Mission of Noe Valley, the area around the 24th st. station where your husband can catch the train in the mornings. There are plenty of good food places in the Mission and Noe Valley. The area is also pretty easy for car commute as well.
Commute from the East Bay to the Valley, with or without a car, is pure hell. I don't recommend it to anyone.
Think you might have gotten me mixed up with the original poster - but thanks for the information about the commuting.
I'll note that we were tourists in the Palo Alto area - and pretty much stayed off the roads during rush hour (no reason to kill ourselves to get an early start just to wind up stuck in traffic). Traffic wasn't bad at all (by California standards) during non-rush hours.
As for Max' mention of Santana Row in San Jose - we really liked it the day we went there (nice farmer's market - beautiful meal - great weather - what could be bad?). I'm a pretty suburban person (I don't need drunks, drug addicts or homeless people to make my day) so the fact that it is "new kind of phony urban" didn't bother me at all. I think it has apartments/condos - but I'd hate to see what they cost (the price of real estate in the San Jose area was really quite staggering - perhaps the rentals are a relative bargain).
FWIW - I think one factor in this selection process has to be weather. One day we left Palo Alto. It was a gorgeous September day - bright and sunny and 80. Drove maybe 35 minutes to the coast and it was 55 and cloudy and damp. Robyn
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Hey, I know you're looking for a used Volkswagen circa 1972 but I can sell you a fully loaded Lamborgini if you're interested. WOW! I guess if you're loaded, go with an architect...
At least where I live - if you're going to do more than $500 of structural work (moving walls - electrical - plumbing - whatever) - you need a building permit. And to get a building permit - you need plans which are signed by an engineer or architect. You'll also need a licensed contractor or contractors to do the work.
Which brings the whole thing back to the budget. There is no way getting around the fact that structural work adds a lot to the cost of a kitchen remodel. So if a budget is tight - it's better to do things like updating cabinets and appliances as opposed to ripping out the back wall of your house. Robyn
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Wow, didn't mean to start a big debate here....
Anyway, I have a larger budget than 3K, since I plan on spending at least 2K on a stove. However, I'm not ready to spend 5K on just the design on the kitchen. I'm not looking for a very unique or fancy design, just a functional kitchen with good appliances.
I have a friend who is an architect and has hinted that he would do it for free. However, I don't think he has much experience designing kitchens. I guess I was thinking that maybe I should go with someone who can give us advice/options on which appliances and cabinets to choose as well as the kitchen design.
I must say that I haven't done too much research on where to get a kitchen designer. I really had no idea what the cost will be. I thought this is a good place to get some advice.
It seems that $500 is not an unreasonable price. I will definitely ask and see if that person can give us some references and/or show us projects that he's designed. In the meantime, I'll continue to seek out other local kitchen designers.
Thanks everyone for your inputs.
Let's not beat around the bush. How much are you planning to spend on cabinets and where do you plan to buy them? If you're talking about a 5 figure cabinet job from Poggenpohl - Bulthaup - etc. -- you won't have to pay anything for the design - except a deposit which will be a credit against your purchase.
If you're not talking about spending this much on cabinets - why are you planning to spend more than $2k on a stove? Robyn
My budget is not set. I want to price everything and then decide what I can live with and what I can live without. However, it's hard to price anything without having a plan and knowing what I need. That's why I want to have someone draw up a plan and get different quotes on what cabinets/counter will cost me as well as construction cost such as knocking down a wall or two.
I need someone who can design the whole kitchen, not just cabinets.
Well surely you must have some idea. $10,000 or $100,000 max? Less or more or something in between?
General rule of thumb. Any high end cabinets will run about $1000/linear foot and up without counters. Sounds like a lot. But many have great storage capabilities compared to lower end stuff - so you may need a lot fewer linear feet of higher end cabinets than lower end cabinets. And any high end cabinet person (as well as the people at Home Depot too) will design the whole kitchen - not only the cabinets.
As for construction costs - rearranging some drywall on non-structural walls isn't very expensive - unless you live in New York
. Running some electrical lines isn't either. But what you want to avoid - at almost all costs - is moving plumbing. That is a bitch - and it is expensive.As for what you need - who knows better what you need than you? In terms of work surfaces - storage - etc. Do you cook for 2 twice a week - with the occasional holiday dinner or the like? Or do you and your spouse and 2 kids whip up meals for 4 or more 7 nights a week? Is most of your cooking microwaving? Or are you a serious baker? Do you have one set of well worn corelle - or 4 sets of dishes complete with matching linens? You get the point.
And I think that although $500 isn't a lot - you're kind of throwing it away unless you have a general idea of what you're looking for before you even start your project.
There are some really basic free CAD programs on line - and I'd suggest playing with some of them before you retain anyone. And keep in mind that your dream kitchen may be very different than mine.
Note that I am a big fan of functionality when it comes to kitchens. And a designer's idea of what looks great may not suit what you'd like to do with your kitchen. Robyn
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Well all I can tell all of you is the first time I had an aged balsamic was in Key West Florida. Served by Norman Van Aken over strawberries. It was great - but I doubt it was 100 years old - not in Key West in 1970 something. Which is why I asked about the difference between 25 years and 100 years.
Also - I can relate to the story about blind wine tastings (and blind tastings about other things). In a recent tasting of exotic expensive vodkas - someone threw in Smirnoff just for laughs - and it wound up winning the tasting. Robyn
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Thanks for these excellent replies.
I do know the Haight, though only as a visitor, and I do wonder if the shops there are quite my cup of tea these days. The train commute does sound too long too, which would rule out this area, unless the drive was much shorter than 1.5 hours.
I've just bought the Zagat map and the Michelin guide and searched for concentrations of restaurants. Two areas that sprang out were Cow Hollow / Marina (I've walked through Marina, which was pleasant but perhaps rather gentrified. I don't know CH) and Hayes Valley (which I don't know either, and think is just south of you, Carolyn?) And there's downtown of course, where I am staying now, but it doesn't seem very dog friendly at all.
Thanks again everyone. I look forward to exploring your suggestions further.
I believe that if you live in San Francisco - and are commuting to Menlo Park - you will be "reverse commuting" (most people will be going in the opposite direction at rush hour). At least that was my perception when we were staying in Palo Alto last fall and driving around the area (although we stayed in the general area - and didn't go into the city - on an earlier trip - we stayed in the city). Someone more familiar with the area can correct me if I'm wrong. Nevertheless - in terms of driving - I think you're probably talking about a drive that's longer than an hour. Again - someone who's more familiar with the area can correct me if I'm wrong.
Your information says that you're from the Ukraine. If I were moving almost half-way around the world - I'd just try to get a short term rental (maybe 6 months) near where I was working - make the move - and then investigate on my own. Read. Talk with people I met. Learn about commuting distances - what I liked - didn't like - etc. Which will be very personal to you. You didn't mention whether or not you have or plan to have children. That would be a very big consideration in terms of where to live in the Bay Area. In terms of dogs - well I don't like dogs - sorry
- so I have never looked at any place from a dog-lover's point of view.The one thing I can tell you is there are lots of good restaurants throughout the Bay Area. I actually liked some we went to in the San Jose/Palo Alto area more than some we dined at in San Francisco.
For what it's worth - one of the areas mentioned near a CalTrain stop - South Park - if I am remembering it correctly - is kind of a wasteland. I went there to go to a furniture store (Limn) - but it wasn't exactly my idea of an urban paradise. We walked around for about 20 minutes after visiting Limn (which is a great destination contemporary furniture store) - and did wind up eating a nice lunch. But the area was kind of underpopulated in terms of "city things" - and I don't think I'd want to walk around there at night. Again - someone more familiar with the general area can correct me if my geography is wrong. Robyn
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The dinner policy at RHR has been (perhaps forever) that the restaurant reserves the right to limit diners at dinner to 2 hours. This is to get in 2 seatings during prime dinner hours. Knowing this in advance - we opted to eat lunch there. And we dined undisturbed for about 3 hours. Best meal we've had in the last 3 or 4 years (my husband had the fixed lunch - I ordered a la carte - neither of us had the tasting menu).
I mean really - what would you rather have. A 2 hour dinner at GR at dinner time (7 or 9 pm) - or a 4-5 hour dinner at Per Se that starts at cocktail time (5 pm) or close to bed time (10 pm). On my part - I like to eat dinner at dinner time. Robyn
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Wow, didn't mean to start a big debate here....
Anyway, I have a larger budget than 3K, since I plan on spending at least 2K on a stove. However, I'm not ready to spend 5K on just the design on the kitchen. I'm not looking for a very unique or fancy design, just a functional kitchen with good appliances.
I have a friend who is an architect and has hinted that he would do it for free. However, I don't think he has much experience designing kitchens. I guess I was thinking that maybe I should go with someone who can give us advice/options on which appliances and cabinets to choose as well as the kitchen design.
I must say that I haven't done too much research on where to get a kitchen designer. I really had no idea what the cost will be. I thought this is a good place to get some advice.
It seems that $500 is not an unreasonable price. I will definitely ask and see if that person can give us some references and/or show us projects that he's designed. In the meantime, I'll continue to seek out other local kitchen designers.
Thanks everyone for your inputs.
Let's not beat around the bush. How much are you planning to spend on cabinets and where do you plan to buy them? If you're talking about a 5 figure cabinet job from Poggenpohl - Bulthaup - etc. -- you won't have to pay anything for the design - except a deposit which will be a credit against your purchase.
If you're not talking about spending this much on cabinets - why are you planning to spend more than $2k on a stove? Robyn
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Hi,
My husband and I are moving to the Bay Area in the spring, and looking for somewhere to live where we can walk to a wide variety of good restaurants and food shops. We also need to live near a park to walk our dogs. My husband will be working in Menlo Park and quite likes the idea of a train commute giving him time for uninterrupted work at each end of the day. I'll be working for a London company - i.e. from home :-)
At the moment we prefer the idea of living in the city and we've found a house we like on Broderick St in the Haight - but I'm concerned that the only eating nearby seems to be burger joints and pizza places.
Where would be a foodie's dream home be?
Pardon my French - but I think you have to be nuts looking for places where you can walk to restaurants when you're talking about spending 3 hours commuting to work every day.
We've been both in San Francisco proper and the Palo Alto/Menlo Park area within the last year - and there are plenty of good places to eat in both. If I were in your shoes - I'd live where the commuting time is the shortest - assuming I could afford a place to live (just about all the real estate I looked at in that area was ridiculously expensive from a Floridian's point of view). Robyn
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Whether or not the stuff is real - the going rate seems to be about $500 for 100 ml.
Even if the stuff is real - would it be that much better than really good aged balsamic that was perhaps 25 years old (just because something is really really old doesn't mean that it's really really good)? Robyn
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We'll be spending a weekend in Atlanta in January (to go to the Honda Battle of the Bands) - so I'm interested in seeing what's new.
But I'm not sure about a restaurant that categorizes "steak au poivre" as modern cuisine. Robyn
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I'm having a small Thanksgiving this year (3-4 people) and only 1 prefers white meat. Also - the thing I hate most about the meal is dealing with the mess of carving a whole turkey right before the meal. So I thought I'd roast a small breast - and make some legs separately. I had a braised turkey leg in a restaurant today - and it was fabulous. I looked on line - and found a couple of recipes. But I wondered if anyone here has ever braised turkey legs before - and whether you have any suggestions to maximize the chances of a good result. Robyn
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My wife and I will be vacationing in Savannah for the first time the week of Thanksgiving and want to experience the best food and dining experiences this city has to offer. We're staying in the Historic District but will have a car. There is not much we don't love or won't try but service is important. Specifically, recommendations for a good meal on Thanksgiving Day would be appreciated. We have read many of the previous threads about Savannah dining but know how quickly restaurants can rise to or fall from grace. Much thanks in advance.
Thanksgiving is frequently a tough ticket since a lot of restaurants are closed. If you can't find anything in Savannah - you might take a day trip to the Ritz Carlton on Amelia Island (which serves an ok Thanksgiving meal and has a lot of "start the Christmas season" activities). Robyn
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Oh Jesus
it may be an old post but it is still so true.Thankfully my gmil likes Sweet Tomatoes, there are demonstrably worse choices. And you don't even want to know what my fil did & said when we said we were on our way to a Greek seafood joint in Lauderdale-By-The-Sea (we ended up driving around the Boca Mall for three hours looking for TGIF as he specifed, which doesn't exist, then HE threw a public tantrum at us for daring to consider eating without him). Oh, the drama.
Anyway, -our last night we ran away from everyone & went to our Greek joint (Athena's) & pitiable us, it closed at 11- too bad, it was exquisite. HOWEVER, Mulligan's next door- totally unpromising looking pub...
Calamari, marinated in garlic & fried in olive oil (yes, sigh, 'evoo'- just assume from now on if I ever mention olive oil in a post unless otherwise specified that's what I meant), a turkey club with two entire avocados, remoulade with the fish that I could drink in a glass it is so good (and sucked up with the wonderful fries). Everything fresh, homemade. On the pier of A1A. Mulligan's, with a Bass on tap. Stagger to the ocean & watch the waves.
It was worth days of bad Boca food to get there. Do go & try Athena's, too, but don't make my joints too damn popular or I'll never get in.
Best food I've had all year.
I had a wonderful dinner last year at Mark's on Las Olas in Ft. Lauderdale. I hope somebody responds to your post, though, because I'm heading to Boca in 3 weeks andI haven't been able to find much in the way of recommended eats either. Surely SOMEONE knows the score down there!!!!The problem as stated is that if I tell you about a place you'd like - your parents/inlaws will not want to go there. And - if they do go - they will complain throughout the whole meal. My husband and I (late 50's) are from Miami (don't live there now). My parents (80+) live near Boca - and we go through this several times a year. We have developed a workable game plan.
We arrive at the Marriott at Boca Center Friday night. We go to Big City for a stiff drink. We eat at Uncle Thai's (which is adequate - particularly if - like us - you're from a place like Jacksonville with no edible Chinese food) because the only alternatives my parents will go to are smaller more local places with early bird specials that the restaurants bought at Costco. It is the only place where my mother will eat a dish that is overly salted and not die from congestive heart failure. My parents go home early. My husband and I have a couple more stiff drinks at Big City. My husband gets to see many surgically enhanced breasts. He is happy. I am drunk.
The next morning - my parents - starting at 9 am - will give me 10,000 reasons why they cannot possibly go out to lunch and/or get there by noon. Nevertheless - they will somehow manage to get ready and dressed by noon. We go to Legal Seafoods at the Boca mall (another adequate restaurant). We will discourage my mother - who doesn't eat real fish - from ordering the calimari because last time she sent it back because some of the pieces weren't totally round - they had legs. I do not drink before the evening - but sometimes I wish I did. The mall is great. I have fun spending money. My mother complains that everything costs too much.
Saturday evening my mother makes her special dinner. Reheated BBQ chicken. My father BBQs chicken - then freezes it - then they reheat it. If any of you have seen the movie "Mother" with Albert Brooks and Debbie Reynolds - you will appreciate the significance of the freezer in contemporary senior citizen life. I can manage to get down the dark meat. My husband needs massive quantities of liquid to get down the white meat.
We have a light lunch at my parents' house on Sunday - and then we are free to go to Miami - where we eat good food and have fun.
Sad thing is - there are actually some ok restaurants around this neck of the woods (although I do not recommend Mark's on the Park - Zemi's is better - but it's the kind of place where you wish you just had appetizers and dessert). Even an Indian restaurant near my parents' house was ok - except it was the first time my parents ever ate Indian food and they swore they never would again. So if you're making a dutiful child visit to parents - I feel your pain - and recommend the very large martinis at Big City.
In some ways - it is easier with my father-in-law - who lives in a nursing home near us. When we take him out for lunch or dinner - his standard line is - "don't you know any moderately priced places" (which applies to any restaurant where a lunch main course is more than $5 and a dinner main course is more than $10). I hear this again and again - even though dinner is always on us. Still - he doesn't get to pick the restaurants - so we have a fighting chance of getting a really good meal (only variable is the local restaurant scene). Anyway - I think we need a good shrink as much as a food critic in this thread. Robyn
I missed this reprint of my old message last year - and it brought back a lot of memories. My father-in-law is now dead. As is my mother. And my father moved here to Jacksonville earlier this year. The good news is I will never have to go to Boca again to visit parents (I'm not sure I'd go for any reason - if I want good shopping - Orlando is a lot closer). The only things I will miss about Boca are Legal Seafoods and the Dolly Duz shoe store. Robyn
P.S. Zemi's closed over a year ago.
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Hi,
I am responsible for preparing Thanksgiving dinner this year. Does anyone have any recommendations on where the best place to buy a Thanksgiving turkey is? Price doesn't matter, we just want the tastiest.
Thanks!!
I've always cooked Butterball turkeys - and they always turn out fine. I started to investigate something a little fancier this year after reading today's article in the New York Times about turkeys. After reading quite a bit - I came to the conclusion that although there may be turkeys that taste somewhat better *when cooked perfectly* - the odds of cooking them perfectly aren't terrific (especially in terms of getting a perfectly done breast without raw thighs/legs). With a Butterball - the whole turkey is always perfect. I figured - why pay $100 for a turkey which is basically a crapshoot?
By the way - one thing I am thinking of doing this year to simplify the meal/cleanup (because it's basically dinner for 3-4) is to cook a breast and several legs separately. Here's a recipe for this kind of preparation. By the way - you don't want to brine a Butterball turkey because it's been injected with a solution that contains salt. Robyn
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Are you familiar with the hotels? Which is nicer? Took a look at these websites - and it might be fun to stay at one of the hotels - eat at both restaurants over perhaps a 3-4 day period - go to Cologne and perhaps some areas outside the city for a little sightseeing - and then catch a flight home out of the Cologne airport (both places seem pretty close to the airport). Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
Only fly in the ointment is I think we will need a car for this - and my husband has bad memories of his last driving in Germany (he wasn't used to the speed limits on the autobahn). But if I rent him a car with a GPS - and say please in a nice way - I think I can convince him
. RobynBoth are excellent - I had the pleasure of staying at Schlosshotel Lerbach in August and it was fantastic. Which you choose really depends on what you are looking for.
Grandhotel Schloss Bensberg is on the top of the hill in Bensberg, so is in town and within walking distance (5 minutes up or down hill depending on whether you are going to / from hotel) of the tram/light rail stop of Bensberg. This will take you into Cologne quickly and easily (and cheaply).
Schlosshotel Lerbach is more of a country-house / hunting lodge style, set in a park. You would need to use a taxi to get to either Bensberg tram station or Bergisch Gladbach rail station (both about 5/10 minutes by taxi and around €10).
Of the two I would recommend Bensberg if you are looking to visit Cologne several times during your stay and Lerbach if you are looking for somewhere to chill out - or better still a couple of days at both to get the best of both worlds!
I would also suggest looking at their "Arrangements" or packages as these offer some good deals, especially if you take advantage of the fact that most will allow you to take an extra night at a much reduced cost. You can also get a better room at a reduced rate as part of the package - if you do this check with the hotel as I believe that at Lerbach (and probably Bensberg) they include use of their chauffeur driven car in the rate for those in a suite.
Meal-wise, I would strongly recommend taking lunch at Restaurant Dieter Müller and choosing the "Amuse Bouche" menu (19 small dishes served in 5 courses but only available at lunch), and perhaps dinner at Vendome (although not on the same day for obvious reasons
).That lunch menu at Dieter Muller looks really interesting. I've made a reservation at Bensberg for 3 nights. Thinking of doing the lunch at Dieter Muller our last day. We have a plane early the next morning. If we wanted to do lunch - and then a little sightseeing in the general area - but outside Cologne - anything in particular that you would recommend? Robyn
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Nathan - Hope you had a great trip to Italy. We never had a bad meal in Italy.
In general - I agree with your observations about recommendations from locals - even more with regard to directions than restaurants. OTOH - we have had some good luck with recommendations from local guides. Including one from a cab-driver in Rome who we hired to drive us around for an afternoon (he dropped us off at his "favorite place" - which turned out to be an excellent 1 star Michelin place). Another from a guide we used in Cairo (very nice food but unfortunately my husband ate the salad and got sick). Etc.
Even recommendations from hotel concierges are usually suspect - because most of the time they haven't eaten in the restaurants - they're just telling you what they've read in the restaurant guides.
I personally have more than a dozen family members and some old friends in NYC - and can't trust most of them most of the time for dining recommendations except when we're dining with them at local places in their own neighborhoods (and - even then - their choices are generally "so-so"). A few simply don't have the money. Most have money - but some don't have time to spend fussing with restaurants (they're super busy with work - kids - etc.) - or they simply don't care about restaurants except from a social point of view (e.g., I have one cousin who's very wealthy - 65 - but to keep at a size 4 - she won't eat anything other than a salad without dressing no matter where she's dining). On the other hand - sometimes something special happens. When all of us cousins got together in NYC for my late grandmother's 100th birthday party (maybe 12 years ago or so) - one of my cousins got us a table for 12 at Nobu on a Friday night. He really didn't know anything about the restaurant - he had just heard it was new and interesting. And because he was the dentist for the chef's kids (talk about a strange connection) - they treated us like royalty.
Overall though - I think that most of the time most people travel - they'll find that decent guidebooks are the most productive way to get enjoyable dining experiences.
I will let you know about English in Germany (we found little on our last trip - but that was a long time ago). At a minimum - it never hurts to learn a little of a country's language. Most people really love it when you take the time to learn a little of their language (and a little about their culture). You wind up learning more - and enjoying your travels more too.
As for standing up in showers - I simply appreciate real American style showers of any height. You've never seen anything as pathetic as me trying to "shower" with a handheld shower in a tub. Whenever I try to do that - I think I should have a personal flood insurance policy
. Robyn -
I've watched this thread with interest, since I am quite likely to be a visitor to NY sometime next year. My last visit (6-7 years ago) was very unsuccessful on the food front (in fact, I ate some really poor meals there) and it's not a mistake I intend to make again.
Under normal circumstances, when travelling to somewhere I don't know well in Europe, I will use Michelin as a first approximation guide. If I can supplement that with more in-depth knowledge from local forums here, great. In general, getting a picture of the "top-end" is quite easy. For me, 2 or 3 stars says something serious, and whether it's 2 or 3 is almost irrelevant. 9 times out of 10, the stars correlate pretty well with opinion found online, so I can generally figure out where to go for a top meal.
The problem arises in the more "day-to-day" stuff. This is where Michelin comes into its own. When I find myself walking around an area I don't know and I hear that stomach grumble, what then? A simple, text-light, symbol-heavy guide is exactly what I'm looking for.
Of course, if one has everything planned in advance, maybe it's possible to know where every meal will be eaten. However, a look at the NY board on this forum suggests that it is an absolute minefield for a tourist. I've looked at it for a while, and to be honest, I don't really know where to start. Of course, the people posting on that forum are people who know NY intimately, and could certainly be considered experts on the dining situation there. But it is the nature of such a forum that the posters assume a certain amount of knowledge from other posters. That way, detailed discussions are possible and the minutiae of menus and comparisons in very narrow categories can be examined. That's great, but it's not much use for me, searching as I am for broad-brush-stroke answers.
Honestly, for the tourist, I think guides that are too detailed are useless. I need the forest, not the trees. For detailed info, I'll look elsewhere.
Final thought: I've seen the viewpoint that Michelin just doesn't "get" NY (or San Fran, or whatever). Maybe so, but as a European going to NY, I'm not convinced I'm going to "get" it either. If my views tally with Michelin as an outsider, then that's pretty useful to me.
The fact remains, as a tourist looking for info on mid-level restaurants, there's no one source I trust more than Michelin, and there's no one source that I find more accessible.
Si
On my trips to New York (and other major cities) - I generally make my 2 or 3 big deal reservations in advance using multiple sources - and carry what I think is the most comprehensive guide in my purse for the day-to-day stuff. If I left for New York tomorrow - that guide would be Zagat's. Robyn
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To my mind this, in many ways, is not really a criticism. Like it or not, Michelin *is* a guide for tourists eating in a strange land with, potentially, very different palates and expectations to the locals. I'm not sure that Michelin is or should be catering for the limited few with adventurous palates. The concept of "good food" may be reasonably well-defined when you stay in one tradition, but when attempting to cross cultures things get much more difficult.
Well, I'm the type that, if I'm going all the way to Japan from NY, or all the way to NY from Europe for that matter, I'm going to want to "do in Rome". There are the types of tourists that will, for example, stay in a Hilton no matter where they go. So they like to say they've been in the Hilton in NY, and the one in Thailand, and the one in Brazil, even though it's essentially the same Hilton everywhere they go -
Same goes for restaurants, I get the feeling the Michelin grades on a scale where that restaurant could be picked up and plopped down in any cosmopolitan city - those are their standards, regardless of local color... how that's going to play in more "ethnic" locals, and NY is certainly the most ethnic of all cities, who knows...
I don't know what the hang-up is in this thread about tourists. Remember the definition of Michelin higher starred restaurants - 2 are worth a detour - and 3 are worth a journey. As a practical matter - due to cost - and frequently a matter of a travel (many higher ranked Michelin restaurants aren't in major metro areas) - almost *everyone* in those restaurants in a tourist (if your definition of a tourist is someone from out of town). What's wrong about that?
There's really a whole boutique subset of tourism these days - culinary tourism. And it frequently revolves around diners traveling reasonable or great distances to eat in excellent or fabulous places. I'm sure that Alinea is a culinary tourist destination that has zero relation to anything that anyone in Chicago will tell you is typical of Chicago. Does that mean it's a place that should be avoided?
As for "local color" - well what is local color? Frankly - as travelers become more sophisticated - they don't want to eat so-called ethnic food in New York (or any similar large city). They want to eat it in the country of origin. Now - if one is a local in New York - he or she might not want to go to Italy to eat Italian food one night - or China to eat Chinese food the next. But that doesn't mean that I as a tourist really care about going to Brooklyn to find the best Thai restaurant in New York. When I go to New York - I save most of my calories for the best that New York has to offer - which is basically not so-called "ethnic food". Ditto when I travel to other places. I had absolutely no desire to eat at the best Italian restaurant in Tokyo - because - if I wanted Italian food - I'd have gone to Italy.
You are right about there being certain international standards when it comes to the highest levels of dining. Especially in terms of decor and service. You can thank people like Philippe Starck and Adam Tihany for the former. Which isn't to say that all places look the same. But there is a certain aesthetic. And you know what. I like it. So do most high end tourists. I don't want to go to a 3 star Michelin restaurant in Germany that's full of cuckoo clocks. Or any place anywhere that's full of pictures of the owner hugging celebrities who died 10 years ago. On the other hand - in many high end restaurants (but not all) - you will find cuisine that is distinctive to the country. Chefs who bring the best of culinary techniques to bear on the best of what their country has to offer. That is in general what a lot of tourists - like me - are looking for these days.
By the way - when it comes to hotel chains - you seem to have rather parochial ideas about them. Hotel chains for the most part aren't "American" - they're international. The Four Seasons in Tokyo isn't anything like the Four Seasons in Miami. The Ritz Carlton in Osaka isn't anything like the Ritz Carlton in Atlanta. Also - a fair number of luxury hotel "chains" (like Four Seasons or MO or Peninsula if I recall correctly) aren't even US based. More business-oriented chains like Hilton or Marriott or Starwood cater to business travelers - who tend to have similar needs whether they're American or German or Japanese.
Finally - when traveling - even the most adventurous dining travelers need their "basics". I need a cup of American coffee in the morning (and I travel with instant and the fixings just in case - I know I'll always be able to find hot water). For other people - it might be their tea - or European coffee. For some - they want bacon and eggs in the morning - others want a pastry - others want broiled fish and rice (and I never eat anything for breakfast!). That is why most fine hotels - no matter where you are - have American breakfasts - "Continental" breakfasts - Japanese breakfasts - etc.
Anyway - I and a lot of other people are culinary tourists - and proud of it. I suspect there are quite a few excellent restaurants that wouldn't do as well as they do without us. Robyn
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I don't know how recent you want this to be...
But in the 90's when we were in Paris, we drove to the three-star restaurant La Côte Saint Jacques in the town of Joigny in the Chablis region of Burgundy, which is truly in the middle of nowhere, for dinner, and of course stayed over there in the hotel portion becuase there's nowhere else to stay, and it's too far to drive anywhere after dinner. (It was a spectacular meal.)
And on another trip in the 90's, when we were vacationing in Italy on the island of Capri, we flew up to Bologna and rented a car to drive to the town of Imola for a dinner at the 3-star restaurant San Domenico. (And being farther than we anticipated, we were late for dinner, although we called ahead, and they were, well, not thrilled.) (It was a lousy meal.)
Of course, Michelin's definition of a 3-star restaurant is (or used to be) "worth a special trip", as opposed to the 2-star "worth a detour".
I don't think we've done anything that crazy since (I may be wrong).
Do those count?
Yes - this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
Why haven't you done it recently? We haven't either - but I'm thinking of gearing up again
? Or perhaps this is the kind of thing you only do when you're relatively young - and willing to jump into a car and travel long distances in a foreign country with funny road signs in the rain (although we do have GPS systems now - which is a big improvement)? Or maybe it's an obsolete form of travel? Robyn -
But more to the main point - I think what you're saying is you just don't like the Michelin guide system. That you find the concept of awarding stars and knives and forks - a kind of shorthand - essentially worthless - and that you don't trust the organization because you don't know the origin (or reliability) of the source material. Is this what you're saying? If not - please explain.
I've explained it more times than I have energy to count.
And does your opinion extend to all Michelin red guides - or only the one in New York?All of them, with the French guide being the most credible (though not particularly credible these days) and the American guides being the least credible.
On my part - I am more inclined to trust the anonymity of the Michelin guideSo anonymity equals reliability? Shouldn't knowledge enter into the picture? How do you know the Michelin inspectors have any knowledge? We don't know enough about them to make any such judgments, so we have to take it on faith. Why are you so willing to do that? You don't strike me as a person who takes much on faith.
What do you use when you're "on the road" and want to find great places to dine? RobynDepends where I am. The internet, newspapers, various guidebooks, recommendations of friends . . . never Michelin -- it means nothing to me.
The reason I use Michelin is I have found it in general to be reliable at the high end level - 2/3 stars. One is a lot more variable. I do use it with a grain of salt though. Since it is generally very slow to "demote" 2/3 restaurants - I think the newer the rating - the more reliable it probably is.
Michelin is new in the US. Although I travel a fair amount - I don't do a lot of repeat visits to one place. Nevertheless - we were at 3 1 star restaurants in San Francisco last year - and I thought the stars were pretty much on target. Ate at 2 of the 3 stars in NY (1 in 2001 - the other in 2004) - and I thought they were pretty much on target too. With one caveat. I do think there is some "grade inflation" in the US. Neither Per Se nor ADNY was as good as Gordon Ramsay RHR (most recent European 3 star). And Quince and La Folie in San Francisco weren't as good as a place like Tom Aikens (another European 1 star). La Folie probably got some "grade inflation" from being French too. Chez Panisse was however in line with the best of European 1 stars that I've dined at recently.
I think we'll be dining at 2 3 star restaurants in Germany. One is relatively recent in terms of 3 stars - the other is relatively old. They are pretty close together - and neither is particularly expensive (in terms of 3 star restaurants worldwide). So I'll see if the thesis about the age of the stars holds. Even though I've found exceptions to this rule. The stars at Gordon Ramsay RHR aren't new and bright. Nevertheless - our meal there was superb.
I guess another rule of thumb I use is to avoid tasting menus. I genuinely hate the concept. And the execution is frequently mediocre or stale (the chef's greatest hits). Not to mention that what's on the tasting menu may not be my idea of a "good time" dining. The main on the tasting menu may be the best pork in the world - but if the chef also has a Bresse pigeon - well I want the pigeon. That's just my taste. The chef's tasting menu really locks you in.
Anyway - in a nutshell - I guess Michelin is a lot like what people have said about democracy. Not perfect - but better than the alternatives. And I don't generally use it in a vacuum. I do try to get back-up opinions - especially at the 3 star level. But sometimes you can't - or you think what you're reading in terms of back-ups might not be reliable. Or you just take a plunge. When we went to ADNY - your review was about the only positive piece I'd read about the place. And we were a walk-in - not going on any reviews. It was a rainy night - and we just hoped for a fabulous place to eat on our 30th anniversary. In the end - when you're traveling thousands of miles to eat in a place you've never been before - it's basically a crap-shoot - and you just hope you leave dinner with a smile and not a frown. We've been pretty lucky recently - and we hope our luck holds. I'll be buying a Michelin red guide to Germany - and I'll report back and let you know how useful/accurate I think it is (I'll be using it for both big and little deal dining). Robyn
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I'm not really all that "hung up" on it. It's really just a response to comments like, "Michelin didn't award a star to Blue Hill; therefore, their ratings are garbage." In fact, their stars have a reasonably high correlation to other media sources that rate restaurants. A few of their choices are odd, but a few of Zagat's choices are odd, and a few of Frank Bruni's choices are odd, and a few of Adam Platt's choices are odd, etc., etc. The "eGullet consensus list" is obviously a hypothetical construct, because as FG has pointed out, eGullet doesn't formally do restaurant ratings, and doesn't intend to.Nathan and oakapple, why are you hung up on the question of whether an "eGullet consensus list" would be better than the Michelin list? I think it's kind of bizarre to argue that eGullet Society members disagree about restaurants, therefore an eGullet consensus list would be just as bad as Michelin, therefore Michelin's list is, what, good?I do think the Michelin Guide is the best New York restaurant guidebook I've seen. For those visitors that buy restaurant guidebooks—I don't know how many do, but Michelin isn't printing them as a public service—it's a pretty good resource. I would recommend it more highly than the Zagat Guide. That doesn't excuse Michelin's lapses, but in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
I agree with FG that eGullet and the Michelin Guide really aren't comparable. They're just different types of resources. As a regular here, I have a sense of this site's strengths and limitations. Someone just parachuting in for a quick look won't necessarily know. And there are huge gaps in what eGullet covers. Some restaurants are covered in practically encyclopedic detail, while some other excellent ones are seldom mentioned.
As someone with a higher-than-average interest in New York dining, I have the time and interest to collect data from many diverse information sources. The tourist or occasional diner might not be inclined to do that. And for that purpose, I find the Michelin Guide reasonably well-informed and useful. Indeed, it is useful enough that I bought a copy for myself, even though I am obviously not relying on it as a primary source.
I agree with you. I think the Michelin red guide (anywhere it is available) is simply one source of information about a destination. In some destinations it covers - it may be the only reasonable source of information. Because other food guide books aren't available. Because of language limitations (you can't speak the language in a foreign destination). Or because a local restaurant reviewer for a major newspaper is partially or totally unreliable. Etc.
Note that I've read a lot of messages here - and on other chat boards - and I basically do not trust what amateurs have to say about high end restaurants (although I think they're sometimes useful to find the names of lesser places you're unlikely to find elsewhere). Some just don't know anything about food - and are impressed by restaurants simply because they're famous.
At the other end of the spectrum - there are people who do know a lot about fine dining - but are well known at certain places - and sometimes receive treatment different than the treatment I get (I don't think that should happen at any fine restaurant - but it does). I find the opinions of people in the latter category more dangerous than the former - because - at first blush - you think you should listen to them. But then - if you read a lot of what they write - you realize that their opinions are often influenced by how much a particular places fawns over them. They will "upgrade" an opinion based on fawning (which is more likely to happen at a place they go to frequently) - and dismiss a place unfairly if they aren't treated like royalty (which is more likely to happen at a place they go to once).
I'm sure there are people in between - who do know good food and write about it objectively - but they don't cover a whole lot of ground in terms of geography. And sometimes their taste in food isn't your cup of tea (I personally am sick of people/restaurants who think a high end meal without foie gras isn't a high end meal - I'd rather see the chef do something creative with pears).
Even I have personal rules about my writing. I will almost never write anything bad about a restaurant unless it is an extremely famous celebrity chef restaurant where the reality of the meal was so far below what I'd read about it on a chat board that I felt compelled to give "an opposing point of view". Otherwise - I just keep quiet about the bad meal. I'm sure there are people who do what I do - or people who will even lie about a bad meal because of business or personal relationships.
By the way - just curious - what sources/resources do you use to research restaurants in New York - and other areas? Robyn
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Certainly there are about as many people in Japan who speak passable English as there are people in the US who speak passable Japanese
I'd love to see any evidence for that claim. Perhaps you'll find it if you research the mandatory English education programs in Japanese schools. Not that guidebooks speak. I think you'll find that the number of Japanese who can understand written English is about infinity times the number of Americans who can understand written Japanese. Not that you need to understand much of any language to read a Michelin guide, since the Michelin red guides don't really say anything. They're great gifts for space aliens who speak purely mathematical languages and don't care about the reliability of their sources.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't get the point of this discussion. If it's that people who live in New York and speak English know more about the restaurants in New York than the people who've been working on a Michelin guide for all of 2 years now - ok - I can buy that. If it's that guides like Michelin (and others) and Michelin's star system (and other "star systems" - like Gault/Millau's toques) aren't useful for travelers - I can't buy that.The point is that the Michelin red guide to New York is neither well informed nor particularly useful especially given all the other information sources out there.
Japanese people are supposed to be able to *read* more English than they *speak*. Which is why your hotel concierge won't let you leave the hotel without a card or instructions written in Japanese detailing the places you want to go - and how to get back to your hotel. Note that I am not fussing at the Japanese. How many Americans can put together a single coherent sentence in French 10 years after their last high school course? I used to speak fluent Spanish - and my fluency has disappeared rapidly after 10 years of non-use. By the way - one reason Japanese may be able to read English better than they speak it is one form of "Japanese" writing is Romanji - which is the use of the Latin alphabet to write the Japanese language. But that's like saying I can "read" French (without understanding a word of what I'm reading).
But more to the main point - I think what you're saying is you just don't like the Michelin guide system. That you find the concept of awarding stars and knives and forks - a kind of shorthand - essentially worthless - and that you don't trust the organization because you don't know the origin (or reliability) of the source material. Is this what you're saying? If not - please explain. And does your opinion extend to all Michelin red guides - or only the one in New York?
On my part - I am more inclined to trust the anonymity of the Michelin guide than anything that a fellow like Frank Bruni says about a place (because he has - in my opinion - broken the first rule of restaurant reviewers - which is to be anonymous if at all possible).
And - of course - when you're talking about New York - you don't have to rely on anyone. You live there. If you want to try a new place - or revisit an old one - you hop into a cab and do it. What do you use when you're "on the road" and want to find great places to dine? Robyn
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Don't really count. What I'm looking for is a trip to the middle of nowhere (in tourist terms) just to get a meal you expect to be great. San Francisco and New York aren't really in the middle of nowhere
. And a personal favorite doesn't count either - especially when it's closed (boy that must have been disappointing - did you at least find another restaurant you loved?). Robyn -
Also, I think it might be illuminating, in some sense, to explain why I've never eaten at ADNY and Per Se -- two obvious comparisons -- so I can't compare them.
ADNY is the kind of hyperfancy restaurant that my late wife WOULD NOT TOLERATE. So we never went. It's too ostentatiously luxe for business entertaining (at least the kind I do). And it's also too ostentatiously luxe for dates -- there is such a panoply of wrong ideas that could be conveyed that it doesn't matter which one would be picked up.
Per Se, OTOH, would have been fine for my late wife, and, even despite its high price, is to my mind sufficiently low-key in the ostentation department for a date. But you can't get in. I can't plan meals a month in advance, and even if I could, I won't spend all morning on the phone trying to get through (much less have my secretary do it), and can't eat a big multi-course meal at the odd hours that are usually avaibable anyway.
Also, neither of those restaurants seems fit for solo dining, my other frequent option. ADNY because, even if you occassionally COULD snag a table at the last minute, it just seems too fancy/ritualistic, and Per Se because you can't walk in. (I NEVER plan solo dining in advance.)
So I never go to those places.
Atelier Robuchon, at least during its soft opening during these waning, inhabitant-free months of summer, is perfect for a solo semi-walk-in. Once the modified reservation policy kicks in, I'll never be able to do it on a date (since we'll be unable to get a reservation for one of the tables, and will be unable to ever expect counter seats without an intolerably long wait), and I'm sure the wait at the counter will be such that I won't be able to walk in anymore. So it goes out of my repetoire after Labor Day.
But for now, in a way, for my needs, it's perfect. A place with great food, but no ritual. I wish it could stay that way.
I completely agree with your comments here Sneakeater. I have the same issue with Babbo. Love the food, but trying to get a table reservation for a date or seat at the bar solo is about as much fun as a root canal. Incidentally, friends of mine recently tried to get a table at Babbo for their anniversary and gave up after weeks of trying. Where are they going instead? They're "settling" for Atelier Joel Robuchon NYC!
I agree with both of you about the reservations BS. Went to ADNY as a walk-in (a fluke) - and to Per Se with a stranger I met here who had a reservation but had lost her dining companion due to a change of plans. Still - after that 5:30 "dinner" at Per Se - well it's not anything I'll ever do again anywhere. But one suggestion I have is to do lunch at places that serve lunch. Impossible dinner reservations are frequently possible at lunch. The food is usually less expensive - and you may get better treatment as someone unknown to a restaurant at lunch than you would get at dinner. L'Atelier is open for lunch. Robyn
New German Cuisine?
in Elsewhere in Europe: Dining
Posted
Stephen - We decided to have dinner at both places - one on our first night - one on our third night - with a night in between for tea and toast
. We'll "go into town" (Cologne) for sightseeing during the day.
I'll note that the hotel in Bensberg seems to be a really popular place. I was thinking of changing our room type reservation - and the hotel is already sold out for one night of our stay in June. Robyn