alanamoana
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Posts posted by alanamoana
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edited to add hypothetical situation: I could argue that after completing culinary school for baking and pastry, I could have stayed on for another year to do the culinary program and I would have run circles around the culinary students. I know my work ethic...I know that I had experience in restaurants before attending culinary school and that already being comfortable in that environment would have made it easy to outdo the other students whether I had any culinary (hot side) experience or not. So you can take that example for what it is worth...without any malice
No malice perceived. Obviously I am speaking from my very limited experinece and with a statistical sampling of exactly 2 (I have a ch8ildhood friendn who went through thje same curricular path as the young man I spoke of upthread but she burned out on pastry work after two years... went to Hotel and Restaurant Admin school and left the front end of biz to go to work for a food conglomerate.
I am curious however. I'm guessing based on some of your statements that you are doing / learning /acquring skills on the "hot side". Now that you're out in the field with experience.... would you pursue the path to where you're at any differently than by the way in which you have already arrived there? (assuming that you could go back and follow a path again from an earlier juncture).
phaelon56, it is probably a bit off topic, but I understand your curiosity. Here's my experience:
1) curious about entering restaurant world
2) got a job for no pay just to get experience before deciding to attend culinary school
3) they threw me in pastry (I've found this to be typical...pastry tends to be neglected and therefore if there is someone that they don't know what to do with, they'll send them to hang out in pastry)
4) I liked it!
5) started to get paid, moved to the 'warm' side (not hot side because I was making food for the cafe, not the sit down part of the restaurant)
6) became a barrista in the cafe for a while
7) moved to San Francisco to attend culinary school (stayed working for the same restaurant chain in SF as a barrista while in culinary school)
8) graduated in pastry, got a good job in SF (moonlighting as catering person on the side...savory stuff and pastry stuff)
9) got promoted to pastry sous chef TOO SOON
10) got next job as pastry chef of a new restaurant (again, TOO SOON, but learned a lot about savory cooking at this restaurant)
11) moved to New York to take a job as pastry sous (stepped away from too much responsibility) with my first boss from SF (she had moved to NY)
12) two or three more pastry chef and pastry sous chef jobs later, I moved back to the San Francisco Bay area and now I'm teaching baking and pastry.
13) the entire time I was employed in restaurants, I can say that I knew the savory menu almost as well as the pastry menu and would always help where I could on the 'other side'. I've never lost my curiosity for learning as much as I could...but that's my personality.
Teaching is a whole new thing and harder in some ways than working in restaurants. I've done some subbing for other chefs in savory classes as I'm only part time. I usually sub for things like Asian cuisine (since I'm half Chinese and have been cooking Chinese food my whole life). I certainly help out the savory students when it comes time for their final exam (offering them menu help, plating advice, flavor stuff, whatever). Oh, I teach baking and pastry to the 'Culinary Arts' students (this means 'hot side' people). So I know what exposure most hot side people get. It ain't much, it's fast and most of them barely grasp the basics. School is what you put into it and most of these people aren't going far (their choice). They're looking for a job at Google because they work Monday through Friday (mostly 9-5), get great benefits with decent pay and that's all they aspire to. That's fine. I hope and work for the one or two students that look beyond that and hope that I can help them get where they want to be.
I did burn out a bit and I fit what seems to be a typical 'female' situation: I got married and wanted a life - no kids yet - but was tired of working ALL THE TIME. Now I have better hours and better pay, I'm still a pastry chef.
Sometimes I give myself the old "Those who can't DO, teach" talk down. But then I think about the hours (read: blood, sweat, tears) and pay in restaurants and I'm okay with my decisions. Besides, here in Silicon Valley, there really aren't a lot of restaurants that would pay a pastry chef. I get to hang out with some good chefs here at school and do what Vadouvan suggests...I keep learning. I watch what the other classes are making I ask questions of the chef. The learning NEVER STOPS. I don't think I'd change the way I got to where I am.
So, you can see that I see this particular topic from MANY different viewpoints. I see the people entering the biz on one end and I've been there and been spit out on the other end. I'm removed enough to be objective about it and as I said, I really do understand all sides. But I'll reiterate: this is nothing new to the biz. As long as you're good at what you do, there will be a place for you as a pastry chef. You can make a difference regardless of where you're coming from, but it takes your energy, not someone else's.
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Pastry chefs often run their own departments in a restaurant. However, even in the most egalitarian work environment, the executive chef is their boss...period. I don't really care what the relationship is and what the pay scale is, they will always have to answer to some extent to the executive chef about what is on the menu. Whether they do it formally: "What do you think of this new dessert, Chef?" or whether it is informal "Hey pastry chef, I think you should try something with (insert ingredient) on your new dessert menu."
Your post was excellent Alanamoana....
No disagreements but I just have to note that.....
The chef cannot unilaterally fire the pastry chef in any of Stephen Starr's restaurants.
They do not have the authority to do so.
They are compartmentalized departments.
I worked for them for a little over a year.
good to know! i've never been fired, but you never know
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HeatherM, I do have a question for your regarding flavor. With all those layers of cocoa butter and colored cocoa butter, does any of that come across when you eat the chocolates? I know that colored and jeweled cocoa butters (and actually cocoa butter itself) don't really smell all that great and I can't imagine eating a mouthful of the stuff on its own. Since you couldn't get a super thin layer (you painted rather than airbrushed) did you notice this when tasting? Just curious.
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just because they can label something as chocolate, doesn't mean that they can hide that fact that they're using vegetable oils on their ingredient list. that hasn't changed, has it? are we that lazy that we can't take a second and read the labels on the products that we buy? i know i do it all the time.
i'm not saying it is a good thing, but i don't think it is the end of the world. i read my chocolate ingredient lists all the time to find out what kind of vanilla they use (hopefully not vanillin) etc.
use your common sense and put your money where your mouth is.
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hmmmm...funny thread! if you work in new york, san francisco or los angeles...you probably cook for celebrities every night of the week!
imagine the cooks at 'the ivy' in los angeles. probably a great group of illegals who could give a $hi7 about who's eating there. never even heard the name of the chef! just that all the celebrities eat there.
and here's my name-dropping list:
birthday cake for lars ulrich (all of metallica was there as well as sean penn), madeleine albright, patrick swayze, don johnson, pretty much every celebrity chef in new york city and san francisco, michael douglas and catherine zeta jones, pierre herme, jerry and jessica seinfeld, etc. etc. etc.
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I think the answers to some of the questions and ideas posited in this thread rely on a "chicken or egg" understanding of restaurant dynamics, restaurant critique, culinary school, public perception and so many other things that are intangible.
I'm a pastry chef and although I do have a liberal arts background, it is difficult for me to formulate a coherent thought regarding the role of pastry chefs in the present or future because I try too hard to be objective about it and as we can see from this 'discussion' it is anything but.
Excuse my ramblings as I try to explain my intro sentence:
Pastry chefs often run their own departments in a restaurant. However, even in the most egalitarian work environment, the executive chef is their boss...period. I don't really care what the relationship is and what the pay scale is, they will always have to answer to some extent to the executive chef about what is on the menu. Whether they do it formally: "What do you think of this new dessert, Chef?" or whether it is informal "Hey pastry chef, I think you should try something with (insert ingredient) on your new dessert menu."
Then, there are the restaurants who can't afford to hire a pastry chef with experience so they either promote the garde manger person to make desserts or they hire a fresh graduate of culinary school to run a pastry program. This undermines culinary school educations a little because we all know that you don't graduate and become a chef in one fell swoop...a little experience should come first, right?
Then, there are the restaurant critics who don't bother to find out if a restaurant has a pastry chef or not...barely talks about the desserts and if they do mention a dessert, certainly don't do it critically. The restaurant critic has some power to initiate the PR ball rolling for some pastry chefs' careers. If a restaurant has a pastry chef, mention their name. If the restaurant doesn't have a pastry chef, make it known that they don't have a pastry chef. Mention the desserts, period! Give the pastry chef, if there is one, something to work towards. Too often this last impression of a restaurant is completely ignored in reviews.
I can't argue with phaelon's query as to whether having more experience makes for better pastry chefs (hot side experience). I think his example taken out of context can be misleading as you have to judge a student's motivation. This person chose to pay for an additional year in school to get a better understanding of all aspects of food. This is what Vadouvan has been trying to explain as well. Those of you who call yourselves CHEFS but can't be bothered to have a decent understanding of every aspect of the kitchen...for shame. I can't agree more. But, phaelon, because this person already had a culinary background didn't guarantee that he would run circles around the pastry students...it was probably more based on his desire to learn, that he was able to run circles around other students. It was probably the case that this person ran circles around his culinary peers because he was just more determined to get more out of his education. As a pastry chef, I try to make sure I keep an eye on what's going on in the kitchen. I always help out when and where I can, be it savory or sweet. I'm butchering fish and watching stocks and helping prep...it is because I have a desire to learn. This is important for anyone in any field. Otherwise, you just stagnate.
edited to add hypothetical situation: I could argue that after completing culinary school for baking and pastry, I could have stayed on for another year to do the culinary program and I would have run circles around the culinary students. I know my work ethic...I know that I had experience in restaurants before attending culinary school and that already being comfortable in that environment would have made it easy to outdo the other students whether I had any culinary (hot side) experience or not. So you can take that example for what it is worth...without any malice
I could go on and on, but this is a distillation of what I just wrote above:
1) basic pastry education at culinary school
2) too quick of a promotion to 'pastry chef'
3) no recognition by peers or industry that what you're doing is important or even specialized
4) burnout
5) quitting the field
6) savory chef with basic education takes over
7) nobody notices as savory chef can make passable creme brulee or clear fruit soup with alginate spheres or (insert savory/sweet dessert-not-pastry name here)
8) nobody wants to take pastry program at culinary school because there's no 'payoff'
9) mid-range restaurants no longer have pastry chefs
10) another emotionally charged thread started on eGullet about the necessity of pastry chefs
11) start over on line one
chicken or egg?
I agree with a lot of points on both sides, but I can't let myself lose sight of the fact that everyone's perception is going to be colored by where they work and at what level...what you have invested in the 'life' so to speak. I agree that being a pastry chef as we know it is going to be more and more limited...but I don't think this is NEWS, I think it is a fact of the business and has been happening as long as there have been restaurants. I think we should embrace the well- known pastry chefs that have already been listed (whether I like their desserts or not) because having high profile peers at all makes it likely that we (pastry chefs in general) can push to be recognized as well.
So let the emotion come into play when you're creating desserts and pushing to get your voice heard on your menu and in the press. That is where it is most worthwhile. Walk the walk...don't cry and pout and point fingers on the internet. Get back in the kitchen and give someone a reason to pay you well and realize you're indispensable and become a mentor to new pastry people so we don't end up without jobs
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Kim, what a wonderful trip report! Seeing you (in reflection) and Mr. Kim really makes it nice to put faces to your posts.
While it is fun to post as 'rubes', I think it is cute that you can have a good time at the diner type places and dance in the aisles over snack cakes. I sometimes (always?!) feel that pretension sets in and then you just can't enjoy the good things in life (like hotel bathrobes)
I worked at Cafe Gray in the Time Warner Center and I'm more than happy with a bacon-egg-and-cheese-on-a-roll from the corner liquor store when I'm in NYC. Sometimes, you just have to have what makes you feel good all over
.Now you've got me missing NYC
Again, great trip and nice to 'meet' you.
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i looked into taking a callebaut course in canada once years ago. they are very helpful, but i didn't end up doing it.
the one in belgium looks pretty good. it is 3 days and only 300 euro...i think that's a pretty inexpensive class, it looks like they take care of meals and snacks too.
i just took the jean-pierre wybauw course in chicago with a few other eGers and it was $845 for three days plus airfare and hotel!
it seems as if they cover a decent amount of material and even though you are pretty accomplished (we've seen your stuff here on eG
), you might still learn something from these people...after all, they are professionals.i would say, call them up and ask a few questions and see how they respond before you make your decision. but i would go, if i could!
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and the exterior? it looks like chefrubber jewel cocoa butter...did you spray the entire interior of the mold after making the yellow spots and stripes?
they look great! i can see how someone might be disgusted, but the outsides are totally cute.
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1) tobasco-chipotle version
2) sriracha
3) crystal
4) frank's
5) thai sweet chili sauce (not too hot, but tasty)
6) alana's five red - using a base of ketchup, add sweet chili sauce plus three other hot sauces to your personal taste. this is my go to junk food dipping sauce!
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so hire someone who has been a pastry sous chef at some decent restaurants with the understanding that they'll start out with a low salary and as you guide their development give them the chance to move up/earn more money.
the above is better than hiring someone fresh out of culinary school for $10/hour and expecting them to run the department on their own without any sort of guidance; especially if you (the person opening the business and the chef) have no understanding of pastry.
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it's also possible that if you're a novice making a ganache that you didn't get a good emulsion going when combining the cream with the chocolate. so, you might have a 'broken' ganache. there are many remedies for this, if it is the case, but follow chefpeon's advice first.
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You may want to check this previous thread on tart shells and the slipping problem. See Chefpeon's recipe (post #8) for a tart shell that can be blind baked without filling with weights. I haven't tried this myself.
Thanks for that link beanie, very helpful!
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I'm not Kerry, but you can soak them in the super-saturated sugar syrup the way she did (all piled up) and after you drain the centers, you separate them and allow them to dry individually.
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i love chefrubber, but i feel a bit trapped when ordering from them...
1) they have items i can't always get somewhere else
2) they tend to be a bit more expensive than other places
3) they charge a $5 'handling fee' for every order
4) their shipping charges are a bit high
can anyone else say 'hostage'?
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are you using any kind of weight in the shell when you blind bake? if you line the tart with plastic wrap and fill with beans all the way up to the top, you shouldn't have any problems. bake until the edges are light golden and by then the dough should be set up enough to remove the beans and finish the baking. just don't let the plastic wrap come in contact with any metal. wrap it loosely around the beans.
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Not only are you not alone, I can raise you on the frustration level...
I'm teaching at a culinary school. I only teach part time and I teach baking and pastry to culinary students. Each time I show up to teach the three week section, I'm in a different classroom with different stoves, ovens, fridges, etc. (and different students, which is a whole other level of frustration). The pots and pans are usually okay (the same throughout the school), but having to run around to gather pastry equipment and then not knowing how the ovens are calibrated in each kitchen...augh!
What's worse is, if you screw up at a friend's house, it usually can be laughed off...if you screw up as a teacher, there goes your credibility!
edited to add: don't you hate going to a friend's house and trying to use their dull knives without stabbing yourself or slicing a finger off?!
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gfron1, i love your april fool's chip-n-dip and frosted cupcakes!!! what a great idea. i never would have thought to apply foolin' to food.
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I think the ones we used at school were closer to two or three millimeters thick. The one I got from ChefRubber is exactly one millimeter, which I think is a touch too thin. I like the size of circles I have though, they are 28 millimeters or just over an inch in diameter. I'd like to get some ovals as well. I can't decide if mine are French or American sized though...
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notice that the chef is a bit hoarse and coughing while on the line? has a nice quart container of iced soda near him at the pass? squirt about three ounces of fish sauce into his drink and say "Hey Chef, you sound awful, take a drink why don't you?"
on someone's last day (common practice to do something evil to them), wait until they change into their street clothes and then soak them with fish sauce. great in nyc where they have to ride public transportation!
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There are way too many good points made by everyone on both sides to quote everyone and respond to them individually, but here are a couple of points based on my experience working at fine dining restaurants in New York and San Francisco (and making reservations and eating at some of them):
1) use the credit card option and if they don't call or don't show, charge them but in the form of a gift certificate which you send to them, thus insuring that you'll have them return. they did this at masa's in san francisco at $50/person.
2) the only correct response, regardless of 'personality' is: "Thank you for calling, may I make another reservation for you?"
3) state reservation policy up front and VERY CLEARLY
4) as a guest, be considerate of how long you're at a table. often, the first reservation at a table can cause trouble for all following turns by camping out with a glass of water for two hours.
5) as a restaurant, take every scenario into consideration (you'll still be wrong about 15% of the time, but make allowances when you can)
6) just as it is impolite for a restaurant to be pissed at you for canceling at the last minute, it is impolite for you to be angry if you have to wait a few minutes for your reservation...in each case, you're relying on your fellow humans to follow the 'rules' of social interaction...we know how dangerous and unpredictable that can be
while all of these things are good guides, one think that hasn't been mentioned that really bugs me and might be the start of another topic is when you make a reservation (or are being seated at a restaurant as a walk-in) and you're told "we need the table back at such-and-such a time" and you feel rushed. i'm torn on that behavior...can't decide whether it is good that they warn you or bad because then it gives them leeway to rush you through a meal...it should still be comfortable to dine there...of course, you can always cancel that reservation if there are conditions made on it.
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for about ten dollars less for the exact same thing as the Frieling, you can buy a French Press. that's all it is. please read Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking" and look up milk and frothing milk. invaluable information. i'm assuming that since this is eGullet that everyone has a copy of this great reference book.
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12C (3qt) ½ & ½
zest from ½ an orange removed with a veg peeler
3 cinnamon sticks
1C brown sugar
1#2oz 61% chocolate
1C brandy
heat and infuse the first four ingredients, strain over the chocolate (to remove zest and cinnamon) and use immersion blender to smooth out. add brandy (or alcohol of your choice) at the end. you can store this in the fridge and heat it up when you want some hot chocolate. of course, you can add more or less chocolate depending on your taste and omit the alcohol too.
this is a recipe i used at a restaurant where we gave shooters of hot chocolate along with the petit fours at the end of the meal (in winter). it probably isn't as rich as the pierre herme or czech hot chocolate, but pretty delicious for at home drinking.
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What? No Lemon Bar recipe? Darn!
Here's what I'm thinking: My 'go to' Lemon Bars come from Rose Levy Beranbaum's Christmas Cookie book. The crust is blind baked, the lemon curd is poured on, then the pan is baked 10 mins at 350. Now, is there some way to use Dorie's Lemon Cream instead? Would 10 mins in a hot oven completely destroy the delicate texture? My inclination is to not tempt fate, but my heart craves the silky Lemon Cream. All advice appreciated!
Colleen
can't you just blind bake individual tarts and allow them to cool then fill them with Dorie's lemon cream without baking? you'd have smooth cool creamy lemon tarts...then top with meringue or whipped cream!
How Important is an In-House Pasty Chef?
in Restaurant Life
Posted
add to that the high number of chefs who really don't know anything about pastry who always add things on to the pastry prep list. "oh, can you bust out a few extra sheet pans of crackers for tonight?", "I'd love to make a savory sorbet to go with such-and-such, can you help me out with it?" or "I'm trying to make a savory tuile/cookie/garnish/whatever for this dish but can't get it to work, can you come up with a recipe for me...while you're at it, why don't you make them for me every night for service?!"
sound familiar?