Gastronomy in France in Flux?

[Fat Guy]

It seems to me that if you want to be serious about the intellectual direction of cuisine

I don't. I guess this is where we part ways, FG. I don't give too much of a damn about the intellectual direction of cuisine. I don't find it especially challenging and I don't think you do either.

I agree entirely. So few chefs -- if any -- are intellectuals that it's not worth the time to study the issue from that perspective. I'm far more interested in the intellectual direction of food criticism than I am in the intellectual direction of cuisine. But in that particular context I was using "serious" to mean "thinking it through rather than kidding around."

[lizziee]

Rather than just talk about Adria in the abstract, let me give two examples from his cuisine, one which was extraordinary and one which, for me, is just not food.

The first is Adria's Sopa de Levadura con Helado de Limon y Huevo de Codorniz (2000). To quote Robert Brown this is "a rather incredible, complex dish and a transition between the main courses and the desserts. A "reverse engineering" of a brioche. In a bowl was a quail egg yolk, melted butter and lemon ice cream in the bottom of a bowl. The waiter poured hot juice from yeast and some unnamed ingredient that gave it crunch. The taste brought together the elements of a brioche without actually being one." This is Adria at his best. The intensity of the flavor, the deconstruction of a brioche which added up to a sum, much more than its parts."

The second is "3 spoons containing flavors of the world - not food, just liquid tastes of Thai, Japanese and Mexican flavors." The intensity of the flavor is certainly there, but that is all you have - flavor without texture. This is taking the deconstruction to the extreme or more to what Steve P suggests as food in tablet form.

I think the impact of Adria is in this intensity of flavor. In this world of fast food, quick and easy satisfaction, passive enjoyment, mindless TV watching, Adria and chefs like him, force us to be an active diner. There is just no way to sit back and be a lazy, complacent diner. This active participation, both cerebral and emotionally evocative, absolutely did not diminish my enjoyment of the food. The struggle is finding the language to describe Adria.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"It seems to me that if you want to be serious about the intellectual direction of cuisine then Plotnicki comes closer to the mark when he worries about the abandonment of goodness in favor of shock value."

Fat Guy - Thanks for putting me in a league with Showalter. But I don't think I am really saying that Adria has abandoned goodness for shock value. Rather I think (and this is only a possibility because it is too soon to tell, and Steve Klc might be correct when he says that in the future his cuisine will be seen as "soulful,) that where the avant garde usually goes wrong, regardless of discipline, is too put too much emphasis on one aspect which eliminates the "essence" of what attracted people to that discipline in the first place.

Lxt - Hey didn't I make that point yesterday when I said that many things that seem abstarct and tangential today become part of the common lexicon we use in the future? And it might very well be the case that Scoenenberg is considered greater than Mozart, or Coleman greater than Bird, or Adria greater than Escoffier. But it maight take 10 years, 200 years. And then again, it might never happen.

[Robert Schonfeld]

I'm far more interested in the intellectual direction of food criticism than I am in the intellectual direction of cuisine. But in that particular context I was using "serious" to mean "thinking it through rather than kidding around."

This is why I nominate you to write the book, or a collection of articles published in book form. You do write in French, don't you?

I promise to be serious about thinking through the intellectual direction of cuisine, even if it doesn't always seem that way. No kidding around.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I'll second that nomination. Let us know when it's done.

[Bux]

Bux - The reason that we understood what a chef did when he beat in those ingredients is that the process was intended to supplement the taste and texture of a potato and bring out its best parts.

Nonsense, and when you make state thse opinions as fact, you close the door on meaningful discussion.

Fat Guy - You are not going to like my answer because it comes from the "can't pin it down exactly school." Or maybe it's the "I know porno when I see it" school. But a potato isn't a potato when the person eating it doesn't get the sensation of eating a potato while doing it.

There you go again. Of course this is not a satisfactory asnwer. It just says your mind is made up and you're not open to new ideas on the subject.

According to Showalter:

"A deconstructed dish," he explains, "protects the 'spirit' of each product it employs and preserves (even enhances) the intensity of its flavor. Still," he adds, "it presents a totally transformed combination of textures."

Why should we believe you and not Adria. My guess is that Adria has had Robuchon's potatoes and understands them quite well.

As for Robuchon's effect on what we all eat, my guess is that it's not had a great effect on the majority of eGullet members (as opposed to just those participating in this thread). My guess is that, even in this rarefied membership, a majority of the members will prefer Italian food to French and will regard Robuchon's potatoes as a dish in which the essence and flavor or potato is masked by the richness and taste of the butter beaten into them. Describe Robuchon's potatoes to the average diner in American and see how many people will react with an opinion that he's gone down a decadent path leading to an irrelevant dead end.

To suggest, at this moment, that Robuchon's influence will be the greater one in ten years is silly. The super rich potato puree has probably had its day. My bet is that more French, American, Canadian and Spanish chefs have already been through Adria's kitchen than Robuchon trained; there has been more written about Adria than about Robuchon; and Adria is just beginning to influence the mainstread directly with his projects for NH Hotels. I wouldn't even have to like his food to acknowledge the direction of his career at this moment.

To not appreciate his food is quite another thing. One should always be able to keep one's own preferences and to decry trends they can't deny.

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki, when you start a publishing company that has the mission of losing as much money as possible, I'll write Schonfeld's book for you.

[Bux]

I said that many things that seem abstarct and tangential today become part of the common lexicon we use in the future? And it might very well be the case that Scoenenberg is considered greater than Mozart, or Coleman greater than Bird, or Adria greater than Escoffier. But it maight take 10 years, 200 years. And then again, it might never happen.

In this thread of long and overlapping posts, let me quickly add that we've reached an understanding here, even if we differ on the likelihood.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Plotnicki, when you start a publishing company that has the mission of losing as much money as possible, I'll write Schonfeld's book for you.

All publishing companies have that as their mission whether they like it or not. This should not keep you from getting paid enough by one to buy Metro Cards.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat guy - Well if you do it the right way you won't lose money.

"Nonsense, and when you make state thse opinions as fact, you close the door on meaningful discussion."

Bux - You've not only lost me, you've made a silly point about my being close-minded. Tell me, who when they heard about Robuchon's mashed potatoes didn't understand that he was going to serve you "mashed potatoes?" And who when they are eating potatoes these days can't tell that they are eating them? Where is the confusion about potatoes in today's cuisine? Am I missing something here? Are there legions of potato illiterates out there?

I just want to keep drawing the distinction in this thread that I have drawn from the beginning. The issue isn't whether Adria will have an impact, he already did. The issue is how much of an impact and upon whom? If as a result of his techniques the people on this site try to foam things, dehydrate things and freeze them, extract the essence of absolutely anything in order to "enhance the flavor," etc. then I will admit that his contributions are meaningful. But if what is absorbed is merely a few flourishes from his technique, just like the occassional Schoenenberg concept or a Coleman passage find their way into more popular forms of music, then he will be viewed differently. There really isn't anything else to argue about. Because I can recall countless conversations in the 60's about who was more important. Coltrane or Ornette Coleman. And while the jury is always technically out on those issues, Coltrane is viewed as the dominant personality of the 20th century in regards to freedom of expression on his insturment. And Coleman, whose playing is freer than Coltrane's ever was, is forgotten except to the hardest core fans. Too much about art and not enough about the pleasure of listening to music.

[Bux]

There's no question that a discussion about who's "the greatest" and who's "the most influential" in any field might make for two very different discussion, although there are always those who will push their favorites without regard to the topic at hand.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"There's no question that a discussion about who's "the greatest" and who's "the most influential" in any field might make for two very different discussion,"

But between Trane and Coleman, there was a way to calculate who was going to be more influential. Trane's greatest playing, and his playing that was the most influential, is about three things if not more. Reharmonizing bop chord changes in a unique but recognizeable way, applying new technique in order to take advantage of the reharmonization, and acheiving a high level of sprituality in his playing. Coleman's music is only about eliminating the constraints of form to achieve a greater level of freedom. That might be a great intelectual (and emotional concept to certain people) but it made his music unrecognizeable as jazz for almost everybody else. So you have Coltrane(recognizeable) vs Coleman (unregonizeable.) Tada. This is why some of us say that potatoes need to be potatoes at the end of the day for the technique to have maximum impact.

[Fat Guy]

If I could prove to you that Adria's potato foam tastes more like a potato than Robuchon's mashed potatoes, would that change your mind? I'm not saying I can prove it; I'm just asking the question rhetorically. In other words, I think your argument is more about familiarity than it is about potatoes.

[Steve Plotnicki]

" If I could prove to you that Adria's potato foam tastes more like a potato than Robuchon's mashed potatoes, would that change your mind? I'm not saying I can prove it; I'm just asking the question rhetorically. In other words, I think your argument is more about familiarity than it is about potatoes"

That's only part of it. You would have to show me I can derive the same pleasure from eating the foam as I get from eating the mashed potatoes. That's the part we keep pointing to which Showalter pointed to in her Betty Fussel quotes. Eating is an activity. It's like riding a bike, or swimming or listening to music or having sex. We like doing the activity. Things that are ancillary to the activity like exhileration, challenging our intelect etc., have reduced meaning outside of the context of doing the activity. I can be convinced that over time, in fact I'm already convinced, that eating will become more of a cerebral experience and a less primal one. But I find it hard to believe that will happen to a degree you and I would describe as radical any time soon. But I could be wrong.

[robert brown]

Part of this discussion is as if 30 to 35 years ago food writers discussed “Saumon a L’Oseille” and “Soupe de Truffes VGE” in terms of do they taste better than salmon or an Auvergnat soup of yore, or, are they a legitimate approach to how food is cooked compared to what came before, and so forth. However, what turned out to be the major impact of the “Nouvelle Cuisine” chefs were a host of both micro-gastronomic and broader cultural issues such as the way they cooked vegetables; how they presented food on a plate; how, as Steve P. mentioned, they lightened dishes; the ways in which it was possible to play about with tradition; stress the critical importance of using the best ingredients; and turning serious eating from a highly-elitist preoccupation into something more accessible to the upper-middle class. The important questions, therefore, to ask today are: Will Adria have a positive or deleterious effect on the gastronomic culture, and did he arise in a vacuum or as a response (whether he knew it or not) to the changing socio-economic dynamics of high gastronomy during the past several years? Ultimately Adria and the Adria approach may live or die on the matters most of us have been discussing such as does he make food taste delicious, will enough people want to eat “that kind of food” often enough; does it provide the same or comparable satisfaction compared to great meals we are accustomed to; or is what Adria does to food creating significant change in the course of how mankind has heretofore made food? On the other hand, will his role will ultimately be seen as a short-term answer to the institutional culinary situation of today; i.e. that this role ends up being nothing, or not much more, than coming to the rescue of the thousands of mediocre chefs in the service of the dining- out boom by showing them how to “wow” their clientele with foams, and gels, and sprays and powders; that the way he makes and presents food is more cost-effective; and that his techniques short-circuit the use of the best ingredients. (That the Observer critic went with Adria to the market to buy a vacuum-packed ham is interesting in this regard, as well as Steve Klc’s mentioning some months ago Adria’s cooking with a can of corn). In other words instead of being compared to Marcel Duchamp, Salvadore Dali, and Jacques Derrida, among others, culinary history may see him as a merry prankster who ran a restaurant and atelier that were part industrialized food laboratory, part perfume manufacturer, part supermarket and part drug store and led gullible, impressionable chefs down a dead-end road?

[Fat Guy]

You would have to show me I can derive the same pleasure from eating the foam as I get from eating the mashed potatoes.

Okay, but that's a different line of argument that has nothing to do with the nature of a potato. You're just saying you want a potato-based dish to be good whether it tastes like a potato or not, right?

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Okay, but that's a different line of argument that has nothing to do with the nature of a potato. You're just saying you want a potato-based dish to be good whether it tastes like a potato or not, right?"

No I'm saying that we are all used to potato dishes being the starch in our meal, not the foam in our meal. And to convince a significant percentage of the paying public that a potato has merit in the form of foam, when they see its merit in a form of starch that is recognizeable to them, is a very long road to hoe. In fact, that road has an end that might never be reached.

But then I am taking it one step further. I am saying that in order to convince people that foam is preferrable, or even as good as a real potato, it has to come with the proffer that the flavor has been improved. And it isn't that I am saying that Adria can't do that, it's just that as much as I've read about the guy, there isn't a single statement that I ever read that makes the claim that anything he has ever made is an improvement. An intensification of the flavor, or an extraction of the flavor, or the transposition of the flavor onto new and unusual textures, yes you hear that all of the time. But never have I heard a single person say that Adria's ____________, are the best tasting _____________ i ever ate.

[Fat Guy]

never have I heard a single person say that Adria's ____________, are the best tasting _____________ i ever ate.

I've heard it about quite a few Adria desserts, and some savory dishes, but there's a pretty obvious reason why you don't hear it as often as you hear that Robuchon's mashed potatoes are the best mashed potatoes: With so many of Adria's dishes, there's no alternate example to compare them to. "This is the best parmesan ice cream I've ever had!" isn't something you're likely to hear until such time as multiple chefs are offering it as a dish. Nonetheless, you have the professional chef community very strongly supporting the notion that Adria is one of the two or three top contenders for the title of world's best chef, you have a restaurant with 3 Michelin stars and 19/20 (I think) Gault-Millau and every other imaginable accolade. We're probably past the point where we can say anything else intelligent without more direct exposure. Plan a trip and let me know when we're eating there; but I think we need to go a few days in a row to get past the shock factor and develop a palate for the cuisine.

[robert brown]

Who wants to be in charge of organizing it for next year?

[Steve Plotnicki]

A few things here. First, I'm available the first three weekends in May. Who is coming and who is organizing it?

Second, Fat Guy, you're post is full of issues you have highlighted where you don't even realize it. For example, is it that there is nothing that Parmesan ice cream can be compared to or is parmesan ice cream a revelation for chefs but an irrellevency for the paying public, aside from the utmost fanatics? As for his being the world's most famous chef, well that's true but famous for what? For the most interesting meal? Absolutely. For the best meal? Depends on how you define best. For the most delicious meal? Nobody is claiming that I don't think.

But if we are going, I say that Thursday and Friday at El Bulli, after warmups at Saint Pau, L'Esguard and El Raco des con Fabes. I'm hungry already.

[Fat Guy]

Well, if I can sell one of my books I'll spend the advance on that trip and if I get a really good deal we'll bring the Klc's along. I'll get back to you in a month or so.

[Bux]

Who wants to be in charge of organizing it for next year?

I would suggest a stay in Girona, both for sightseing and the two Michelin star Celler de Can Roca. I would also suggest a few typical Catalan meals--or at least one--for background. Hispanya in Arenys del Mar seems to come up frequently as the classic place for old fashion Catalan dining. The room was packed for lunch the day we ate there. The crowd was local. Barcelona, of course, is a whole trip in itself.

We pretty much did this trip last June. It was hot as hell in the middle of June. Early May would be better and April probably even better

Is there a serious interest in this?

[Robert Schonfeld]

How's their reservation policy?

[robert brown]

Bux, nobody on this site takes things like this seriously.

Robert, they allow all creeds and colors. (Enough people associated with the site can get us a group table). Make sure we eat at Rafa's in Roses for simple, heavenly grilled seafood of the highest magnitude of freshness.

[Bux]

How's their reservation policy?

El Celler de Can Roca? They didn't require a credit card to reserve my table. We made our reservations well in advance, but I don't recall exactly how far. We tried to change our reservation from dinner to lunch, about a week or so in advance and they were already full. That was for a Saturday. El Bulli is the tough one. I don't know when they start taking reservations for the coming season, but it seems they are sold out early for the season which lasts from April to October. Both of these places are out of town and neither have rooms.