The Herbfarm

[LaurieA-B]

Wait a minute--they're making you pay a tip on a nonexistent meal? The employees are going to get a tip from you for doing absolutely nothing? Nice work if you can get it.

[Stone]

Perhaps this is already on here, but I suggested to Southern Girl that she compose a letter to the food critic at whatever the correct paper is in town, and send the draft to the Herbfarm. It might receive 1) no resopnse; 2) an acceptable compromise; 3) threats of litigation. Any thoughts?

[Steve Klc]

D--my sense of local critics in smaller markets is one of the ways they get on the map nationally is when they help boost a local restaurant, putting it on the map nationally. I'd be very interested to see if the customer service policies at the Herbfarm have gotten any play from local critics or food writers. Links anyone? Or is eGullet the first to openly question, and in my case, ridicule the Herbfarm?

[Blue Heron]

I was going to say God help the Herbfarm if Steve Klc gets wind of this new development. But I see he is already weighing in...

The Herbfarm deserves any blasting they get from their ridiculous policies.

I have read rants by customers about the Herfarm in the rant column of the Seattle Times, but can't recall anything negative by a reviewer. Perhaps they are unaware of the cancellation policies?

[Blue Heron]

This is a link to the Herbfarm's website, which includes links to newpaper & magazine reviews as well as their outrageous cancellation policy as described by southerngirl.

Click here

edit:

Actually, I read now that their policy says "A full refund is given with 30 days advance notice. With less than 30 days notice, the full charge may apply if we are unable to re book your table."

southern girls table did not have to be re booked as she was sitting at it that evening. They should give her a refund.

[tighe]

D--my sense of local critics in smaller markets......

Damn, if 2+ million is small, I'd sure hate to see what large is like.....

(Steve, please note that the little face is intended to denote that the above comment is in no way intended as a personal attack on you or an expression of irrational hostility)

Their cancellation policy is outrageous and since other valid criticisms have been brought up in this thread, I decided to forward a link to the thread to Ron and Carrie (the owners). Perhaps they will consider it, perhaps they won't.....

[LaurieA-B]

Here is a local review of the Herbfarm from a year ago.

[Fat Guy]

I've never dined at the Herbfarm, so my comments here are mostly going to be directed at the general phenomenon of big-fish-in-small-pond restaurants. I've been to so many of them now that I'm far beyond being able to be surprised at the Herbfarm's behavior. Indeed what I'd be surprised to find in an Herbfarm-like situation would be humility.

We used to see this all the time on the national high school debating circuit. There were a bunch of us teams that made up the core group of nationally ranked programs and we all competed against one another with a high degree of humility. We all knew we were closely matched and that every face-off was going to be a close call. But once in awhile some bush-league school from yennevelt would send its championship team (Idaho state champions or whatever) to its first national tournament. These were teams that totally dominated in their regions. They weren't used to losing. But the amazing thing wasn't how easy they were to beat, it was that they behaved like total asses. They had such attitude. It was always a pleasure to crush them with a little cross-examination judo, getting them to say some aggressive, stupid thing with three seconds left on the clock and then leave them hanging with a smile and a wink thrown to the audience. Don't get me wrong: These people were good public speakers; some of them were excellent public speakers. They were good at research. They were polished. They were loaded for bear. But ultimately they weren't the real thing, because they lived in a vacuum.

For all I know the food at the Herbfarm is superb. Maybe there are some dishes served there that are as good as some dishes served at Jean Georges or Les Crayeres. I don't know. But what I do know is that you'd never see this kind of behavior from Jean-Georges Vongerichten because he plays in the arena with Daniel Boulud, Eric Ripert, David Bouley, Christian Delouvrier, and Alain Ducasse, whereas the people running the Herbfarm display all the telltale signs of small-time, small-town, small-minded, unchecked arrogance and it sure looks like they need to be taken down a notch. And if the local and national food media won't do it, we'll be happy to do it here on eGullet.

The mix of contradictions, absurd policies, bait-and-switches, disingenuous huckster antics, and glaring deficiencies that we're hearing about at the Herbfarm make me wonder if we don't have a reverse-ADNY thing going on here: A go-underdog media campaign that has been successful far beyond the kitchen that is driving it, if indeed it is even being driven by food. Can somebody who has dined at several world-class restaurants explain to me how the food at the Herbfarm could possibly be good enough to justify this level of smugness? Southern, you were at Ouest recently. That's what I'd call a major league urban restaurant. Does the Herbfarm play in that league?

[southern girl]

FG- The food that Jerry Traunfeld produced at the Herbfarm was very good (too bad I won't be going back with what has transpired since my dinner, because I certainly would have considered it). I have enjoyed incredible dinners at ADNY, Jean George, Lespinasse, FL, Everest, Mansion on Turtle Creek and Gary Danko...it is definitely not in that league. IMO, I also don't think it could hold its own course for course in food, service or wine (though they do have a great cellar) with Ouest, Gramercy, Veritas or Picholine. It couldn't match Le Cirque, Aureole or Aqua in Las Vegas (and I know how you feel about those!).

That being said...I would never allow myself to be held to a policy that required me to be responsible for a meal, tax and tip if my guest could not join me at any of worlds' finest restaurants (no matter who the chef was or what the reputation of the restaurant)...much less one that isn't in that category, IMO. When I booked last year at ADNY for the white truffle dinner (which was far superior in every way...including cost) there was no such tariff imposed. Am I just sheltered? I know of no other place with the temerity to try such a ridiculous policy...you may be correct about the big-fish-in-a-small-pond smugness...I don't know...but it is a thought (no offense intended to Seattlites...the place is in Woodinville and I would bet there are some restaurants in the city that could surpass the Herbfarm). I cannot imagine that people understand the policy. I cannot believe that any restaurant could continously maintain a high booking level if people were aware...it is just to risky to put one's self on the line for $205.50 (minimum-there are higher price levels depending on what they are serving) for any empty seat the restaurant might not be able to resell inside of 30 days, things come up. How about other PNW folks who have been to the Herbfarm...did you have a clue it wouldn't be that $50 pp deposit they charge your cc when you reserve, but the full cost of the meal? I wonder if the USA Today writer who is doing the article knows the policy? Or the new restaurant critic in Seattle?

Tighe forwarded this thread to the owners...I hope they read it...they do have a good restaurant in its context...they have a very good chef...but, they definitely have issues...in my (and it looks like others') opinions.

[mb7o]

Sure, the weird policy is pretty clearly spelled out, including in the letter they send you before about a week (?) before the actual meal. And it's on their web site. And that may have been why they wanted you at a communal table.

But still, you should complain. You got unexpected wine (normally well matched, but you got the special 'mediocre vineyard night') and the empty seat (unclear reservation policy).

Seattle has a total 'world class city' complex. They do things they think a 'world class city' needs to do, claim that things are world class, and so on. It has many great things, but this weird inferiority complex is not one of them.

[Fat Guy]

Sure, the weird policy is pretty clearly spelled out, including in the letter they send you before about a week (?) before the actual meal. And it's on their web site.

Neither of those is relevant. The letter sent a week before the meal is after-the-fact with regard to the time at which the actual written or oral agreement was formed, and whatever is written on the Web site has nothing to do with that agreement either. The only relevant document or language is whatever was stated prior to the restaurant's acceptance of the reservation request. If there was a faxed form, the language on that form governs. If this was all done by telephone, the only relevant language is what was said on that phone call.

Furthermore, the language on the Web site is far from unequivocal:

"A credit card number is not required to submit a Reservation Request, but is necessary to confirm any reservation offered in response. A $50 per person deposit will be charged at the time a reservation is accepted. The balance will be charged to the card the night of the event so you will not be bothered with a bill at dinner. A full refund is given with 30 days advance notice. With less than 30 days notice, the full charge may apply if we are unable to re book your table."

The relevant phrase is "the full charge may apply." This term is undefined and does not strike me as unequivocally meaning that "the full charge equals $205.05, which includes the cost of the meal, wine, tax, and tip." It could just as easily mean the $50, given the use of the language "will be charged" and "full refund" in reference to the deposit. You could certainly have fun in a legal brief writing "odd that a full refund is $50 while a full charge is $205.05." In any event, as I understand it in most states it would not be acceptable to charge the $205.05, but rather the restaurant would have to calculate its lost profits and charge that amount only. At $205.05 for a no-show, the restaurant actually makes more money on a cancellation than on a live customer. Many courts would call that an impermissible penalty. Given these ambiguities I would be extremely aggressive about refusing to pay the AmEx charge. I would take it as far as cancelling my AmEx account if the company doesn't back you up on this. And I would publicize this in every way possible, on every Internet discussion board that allows such posts: Don't forget epinions and the like. And you should write a letter explaining what happened and send it to every food media outlet you can think of.

If you had agreed to a contract, I'd support the restaurant on this one, but it's clear to me that you did not understand the contract the restaurant thought you were entering into and that you -- or any reasonable person -- had good reason for not fully understanding it. If that is so, the contract should not be enforced against you or anybody else. Having litigated dozens of contract disputes, I can tell you that your likelihood of success in court on this one would be quite high, and that's without even knowing whether you have statutory protection under local law as well, which you might.

[robert brown]

Steven, I have a vague recollection of starting a post about how far we should go in trashing (more like being aggresive with) a restaurant on the site. You seem to go really far in this instance, which I can understand. This is really agregious behavior on Herbfarm's part). Have you ever felt this way before? Can you attempt to say what, in your opinion, other kinds of behavior it would take for a restaurant for you to feel the way you do about the Herbfarm?

By the way, I think this was one of your best posts ever.

[tighe]

Can somebody who has dined at several world-class restaurants explain to me how the food at the Herbfarm could possibly be good enough to justify this level of smugness?

I'd like to take a crack at answering Fat Guy's question since I have eaten at the Herbfarm a number of times and think I have also eaten at enough places that would meet the "world-class" moniker elsewhere.

First, the easy stuff....it has been well established that their refund policy is unacceptable, and I have to admit that I have never been aware of it when making reservations. Shame on me. Is it the result of arrogance? Quite possibly. For many years, the Herbfarm only took reservations two days a year and routinely sold out, on top of being fawned over by local and national publications. Because their new space is about twice the size of their old one, the presence of more high-end competition and the sagging economy, they don't routinely sell out anymore. The fact that they have continued to raise their prices and haven't adjusted some unfriendly policies shows a distinct lack of business acumen. As I said in an earlier post, I also find the sideshow irritating. I'm sure this is an artifact of the days when virtually all their customers were first-timers and their failure to reexamine this part of their business, again shows, a lack of business sense. I believe that it also reflects the personalities of the owners, which, in my experience, are quirky to say the least. The need to recount the story of "how it all began" before every dinner indicates a certain focus on the past to me.

One difficulty I have with comparing it to the "major-league urban restaurants" that Fat Guy mentions is that the Herbfarm is very intentionally agrarian and anachronistic. Think of a cottage in the Cotswalds surrounded by a traditional English garden, that, I believe, is the environment/feel they're going for. Some find it quaint, other find it saccharine sweet. It's very hard for me to meaningfully compare that to any urban restaurant I've ever been to.

Lastly, and this is the ONLY reason I go to the Herbfarm, the food. I will say up-front that Jerry Traunfeld's dishes do not have the artistry of presentation or the complexity of technique and composition of other places I've been. I believe his genius is in the ability to first, distill out a remarkable purity of flavor from his ingredients, and then to create simple combinations of these flavors that elevate the dish to something much, much greater than the sum of its parts. Then again, that is what great cooking is all about, right?

The short answer to your question FG, is that while I do believe that the food at the Herbfarm is truly great, it certainly doesn't justify their business practices.

[Fat Guy]

Tighe, thanks for your thoughtful answer. And Robert, I was reticent at first but this latest development from Southern just pushed me over the edge.

[mamster]

I'm really curious how this is going to turn out. I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but my breath is certainly bated. Southern Girl, please keep us posted.

[southern girl]

Mamster....That makes (at least) two of us...in order to "help" Amex in their decision..I have decided to write them a letter mentioning some of his salient points in FG's incredible post (guess I owe you a meal when I am in the city FG!)...I intend to cc it to the Herbfarm, USA Today and the new Seattle restaurant critic (any other suggestions as to who should receive a copy would be appreciated).

I really do wish the folks at the Herbfarm had responded to the notice of the thread that tighe sent them. He and I agree, the food Jerry Traunfeld puts out is unique and flavorful...and I would most likely have returned to the restaurant were I in Seattle again...had all this not come to pass. Obviously I don't know if they even bothered to read the thread. But, if they did, I would think they would want to make their position known.

tighe...another good post...thanks for the input from a local.

[mb7o]

I keep replying to this thread...

Did you contact the herbfarm first, before AmEx? It's good to have a credit card and a message board on your side, but it's also best to try to resolve the conflict with the original party first. Then escalate!

[southern girl]

Yep...I was informed the "policy" had been explained to me...I disagreed...was put on hold and when the very polite young lady returned she reinterrated that I was informed of the policy and therefore was responsible...there was no room for reason...I am sure they have faced this before...Then on to Amex...who took my complaint...temporarily suspended the charge and promised to follow up. If they are running true to form I will get a final decision by the end of the next billing statement...thus, I hope to get my letter of in the am (if I can stop checking in on eGullet and football !).

[tighe]

I was flipping through the latest brochure that I received from the Herbfarm and ran accross something that better explains (though doesn't justify) the philosopy behind their refund policy. Under the Q&A section is the query, What is the cancellation policy? The answer, in part reads, "Reservations at the Herbfarm are like having tickets to an entertainment or sporting event. You are guaranteed a spot on the night of your reservation...." Now if tickets to an event is their frame of reference (although this is highly unusual for a restaurant) I can see why the policy is what it is. Good luck in fighting the good fight SG.

[mamster]

You are guaranteed a spot on the night of your reservation....

Unlike those other restaurants where a reservation doesn't guarantee you a spot.

Has anyone mentioned this thread to the restaurant management and invited them to come over and defend themselves? I read back over the thread but didn't see any mention. I'd be happy to do it if no one already has.

(I'd especially like to see that guitarist here defending himself, because I hear he's from the Conservatory.)

[southern girl]

Mamster...tighe mentioned he was forwarding existence of the thread to Ron and Carrie (the owners) in his Sept. 5 post.

Edit:spelling

[mamster]

Oops! Thank you.

[Fat Guy]

I'd have no problem with the sports ticket analogy were it a good analogy explained properly at the time of the reservation. But if it's like a sports ticket, why is a deposit taken instead of full payment up front? Why isn't a physical ticket issued that you can just give to a friend as a gift? Of course the restaurant is going to take the opportunity to present its policies in the most favorable possible light, as it has every right to do. And if it explains those policies clearly then consumers shouldn't complain once they agree to them -- the choice should be go there or don't go there. Actually some degree of complaining would be reasonable, since restaurants should know when they're doing things that annoy a large percentage of consumers. But what I find objectionable here is the shabby way in which Southern was treated. I have a pretty clear image in my mind of a staff that knew Southern didn't know what she was going to be hit with after the meal. They were too cowardly to present her with a bill in person because they knew she'd defend herself, so they're hiding behind this policy of non-confrontation. How convenient and comfortable.

Southern, I think you should consider contacting the Washington Attorney General's Office, Consumer Protection Division. Maybe you can get someone on the phone who can tell you how state law applies to this sort of situation. In some states consumers have special rights to cancel contracts with retail establishments. In most states there are rules governing deposits and how they must be handled and accounted for. There are probably other relevant issues here as well that the consumer protection people can tell you about. Once you ascertain the position of the department you can if necessary file a complaint:

https://wws2.wa.gov/ago/formhandler/regularca3.html

Contact information for the Consumer Protection Division:

http://www.wa.gov/ago/consumer/cp_contact.html

I don't think you should just leave this as an AmEx issue. That won't help other consumers who suffer your fate in the future. The state government sits around all day doing useless stuff and acting as a drag on the economy; you may as well activate it to do something beneficial. I think your goal should be getting the restaurant to change its policy or be a lot more forthright about it, not just getting this one dispute resolved in your favor. And I think there are plenty of us here who would like to help you do that.

[mamster]

I have a pretty clear image in my mind of a staff that knew Southern didn't know what she was going to be hit with after the meal. They were too cowardly to present her with a bill in person because they knew she'd defend herself, so they're hiding behind this policy of non-confrontation.

That reminds me, Fat Guy, I finally remembered to bill you for my time on eGullet. Let's see, a thousand posts at $1/word....

The state government sits around all day doing useless stuff and acting as a drag on the economy

We sure do [lighting cigar]. We sure do [sound of feet clomping up on desk].

[southern girl]

Thanks FG for the info...and I will take any pointers or advice...I love a challenge...I have not had a chance to look into the links you provided...but will do so later this morning...and I am sure I will have questions ...any and all volunteers to the cause are greatly appreciated!