credit card guarantees

[jordyn]

so you'd be willing to take the hit when something comes up at the last minute.

Sure. I would hope that if I was a regular somewhere, I might be able to talk my way out of this now and then, but as a general concept, I'd be comfortable providing the restaurant with some protection against no-shows if they're willing to provide me with some protection against sitting around with no table available.

[chefette]

Well...if you still had to spend $50 for someone who failed to show - were you able to get $50 worth of food packaged 'To Go' for your friend who was unable to attend?

Seems only fair since the restaurant is apparently saying they need $50 to cover mise en place to do dinner for him.

Just say your friend is unaccountably invisible..still there, they just don't believe in him enough and order his meal of no greater than $50. Since you ARE there and are still ordering food and wine, they really should provide you some value for your $50. Perhaps the tip!

[Fat Guy]

Chefette, likewise, if you no-show at a place like Lespinasse where they lose money they should probably pay you.

I don't need to be on this thread because Jordyn is making all the arguments better than I would, but I will mention that I too wasn't directing my comments at Southern.

[tommy]

Sure.  I would hope that if I was a regular somewhere, I might be able to talk my way out of this now and then, but as a general concept, I'd be comfortable providing the restaurant with some protection against no-shows if they're willing to provide me with some protection against sitting around with no table available.

well if you weren't a regular it would surely be a different situation.

also, do you find yourself waiting around for tables when you have a reservation very often? i rarely find this to be the case. and what happens when a situation arises at a restaurant and you are made to wait? do you demand your 25 bucks back and leave? now where will you eat?

[southern girl]

Chefette...they boxed up a serving of the "small treats"...which I didn't want the first time around...But, the good news was....drum roll....they didn't serve me extra portions of those "lovely" wines (in case you didn't read the review...the wines were very poor)

[jordyn]

Tommy: I'm not a regular at most of the places that I eat at, so the "different situation" describes most of my dining. In these cases, I wouldn't mind providing a guarantee that I forfeit at some reasonable time prior to dinner if I fail to show up. (The "reasonable time" relates to finding a replacement for me, so I can see how thirty minutes before my planned dinner doesn't cut it.) I'll take this a step further by suggesting that such a policy might actually decrease the prices at a restaurant, as consistently operating close to full capacity would decrease the amount of overhead that has to go on *my* bill.

I don't find myself waiting for a table often, but it happens often enough (even at the best of places) that I wish there were a way to avoid it. If I confirmed my reservation on a credit card, and a table was not available at the appointed hour, I would expect the restaurant to provide some sort of compensation as a result. It would become a lot less likely for this to happen, though, as restaurants would have little incentive to overbook if they knew they would get paid for all of the tables.

Chefette: I think in most cases, the "cancellation fee" is less than the price of an actual meal. At a place like The Herbfarm, this is obvious as they charge you $50 if you don't show up and something like $150 if you do. So, they don't want $50 worth of food from you, they want $50 worth of "profit" (I'm calling it that even though it's not quite accurate), which probably still doesn't quite cover the opportunity cost at a place with a high-end wine list.

[tommy]

I'll take this a step further by suggesting that such a policy might actually decrease the prices at a restaurant, as consistently operating close to full capacity would decrease the amount of overhead that has to go on *my* bill.

you shouldn't have taken that step. now i have no choice but to plotterscize you: "You know absolutely zero, gurnisht, nada about running a business." there's no way a restaurant, or any business for that matter (ok, there might be a few exceptions), would pass on savings to the customer in this way. they aren't going to print new menus with lower prices. it just won't happen.

If I confirmed my reservation on a credit card, and a table was not available at the appointed hour, I would expect the restaurant to provide some sort of compensation as a result.

i've often been comp'd a drink at the bar when the wait is unreasonable. so on that front, i have no problem with the current system.

honestly, i don't see abnormal waiting times to be a problem in restaurants in and around NYC. that's not to say that i can't or don't appreciate the situation that the restaurant is in. i just don't think a fee for a no-show is *not* the answer. perhaps some sort of credit-rating for dinners would be more appropriate. if you've told 10 places in the past year that you got into a car accident and can't make it, well sorry buddy, that's 50 bucks. if you actually *did* get into a 2 car accidents (a more reasonable and likely number), then you're off the hook because the restaurant management is an understanding lot.

actually, doesn't opentable.com and maybe some of the others keep data like that?

[jordyn]

you shouldn't have taken that step.  now i have no choice but to plotterscize you:  "You know absolutely zero, gurnisht, nada about running a business."  there's no way a restaurant, or any business for that matter (ok, there might be a few exceptions), would pass on savings to the customer in this way.  they aren't going to print new menus with lower prices.  it just won't happen.

This is a silly thing to say, both the ad homs and the substance of your message. You're right that no restaurant except for maybe a socialist co-op is going to examine their finances and say "you know what, we just made twice as much money this month as we did last month, let's print new menus and show our thanks to our customers with lower prices". What will happen is that the next time the place down the street raises its prices, our friendly credit-card guarantee restaurant won't need to, which will be happy for everyone. (You're not arguing that people don't take price into account when deciding to eat, are you? There's almost always some incentive to be able to offer a better deal than the competition.)

Regarding your other suggestion, I would be fine with credit card guarantees only being required of known frequent reservation cancellers, but suspect this would be a pretty hard system to implement and would probably create more stress all around than a one size fits all policy. What happens when all of us eGulleter's start no-showing on our Steve Plotnicki reservations and ruin his "restaurant rating"? Do you need to provide your social security number to make reservations instead of a credit card? Obviously your suggestion is not quite literal, but it demonstrates some of the difficulties in dealing witht he problem.

[tommy]

This is a silly thing to say, both the ad homs and the substance of your message

the ad homs are courtesy of plots, as i stated. as for the substance, everyone has an opinion.

What will happen is that the next time the place down the street raises its prices, our friendly credit-card guarantee restaurant won't need to, which will be happy for everyone.

i don't think so, which was my point. clearly we have different views of the world.

You're not arguing that people don't take price into account when deciding to eat, are you?  

you know that i know that i'm not saying that.

..but suspect this would be a pretty hard system to implement

indeed. i'm just throwing an idea out there.

What happens when all of us eGulleter's start no-showing on our Steve Plotnicki reservations and ruin his "restaurant rating"?  Do you need to provide your social security number to make reservations instead of a credit card?

eff plotnicki is what i say. all kidding aside, i'm offering some sort of lateral thinking here.

[Fat Guy]

Tommy you worked especially hard on that post.

[jordyn]

What will happen is that the next time the place down the street raises its prices, our friendly credit-card guarantee restaurant won't need to, which will be happy for everyone.

i don't think so, which was my point. clearly we have different views of the world.

You're not arguing that people don't take price into account when deciding to eat, are you?  

you know that i know that i'm not saying that.

Hopefully this will be my last post on this subject, because we're now completely off the main topic. However, if you acknowledge that people take price into account when they decide where to eat, most restaurants would be stupid not to exploit an advantage that allows them to keep their menu costs down versus the competition. This would most likely manifest itself quite slowly over time, and some of the efficiencies gained would be converted into increase profits as well, but generally you're going to see places with lower costs charge less money.

The exception, of course, is the rare restaurant that is booked close to 100% nearly all the time, or those that simply do not appeal to anyone even vaguely cost conscious. These restaurants probably see no noticable benefit from keeping prices down, in the short term at least.

[tommy]

Tommy you worked especially hard on that post.

it's nice when people notice.

[Rachel Perlow]

I was thinking the same thing! Wow, more than 2 lines!!!

[southern girl]

The saga continues in regard to the Herbfarm policy...I mentioned it on the NW board but wanted to bring it up here (moderators...please delete the one under the Herbfarm if you so desire)...I just received my Amex bill...I was charged for two full dinners...when I called the Herbfarm I was told I "misunderstood" their "policy"...within 30 days...you are responsible for the full cost of the total number of seats you book...even if you amend the reservation number during that period...you are stuck unless they can resell your seat... ...no one in their right mind would agree to this policy...so I must have "misunderstood" (no @#^*)....Amex is on the case...we shall see what happens...but, I can say for sure I will never set foot in that place again. No meal is worth that kind of extortion.

[tommy]

my opinion on this matter was recently swayed in a matter of minutes.

i called Trio, in chicago, to make reservations. i was told that "out of town" guests need to supply a credit card number. when i asked what my obligation was, i was told that if i cancel up to 24 hrs before the ressie, no problem (this is good), and if i canceled after that, the credit card would be charged 25 dollars (getting worse) per person (now i'm almost mad) and that amount would then be sent to me in the form of a gift certificate as "we *do* want people to dine with us."

an abosultely brilliant policy in my estimation. good for Trio!

and jordyn, you're still wrong.

[awbrig]

thats a pretty cool way of doing it, Tommy. Ive never heard of that approach before! Good for Trio as well as the future diner!

[nwyles]

I have posted a couple of things in the Irish Heather DOV post and other DOV posts about reservation no shows , credit card policies and how to handle it.

This is a tough question for the restaurant - to take credit card #'s or not - to charge them or just threaten.

I would think that you would have a hard time with the credit card company. You would have charges on a card but never have had the card. The Cardholder could dispute this and probably win.

You could take a "soup Nazi" appraoch and ban them but that does not get you ahead $$ - I know , if they no show, you aren't $$ ahead, but if they do, ......

Restaurant guests are hard won and sometimes very fickle, leaving you on a whim. How does one handle this "prickly" situation ?

Let it begin.

[Moderator's note: DOV is Dine-Out Vancouver]

[Keith Talent]

I don't have a problem with a non-refundable deposit on a credit card. Golf courses do it all the time. Pretty much every course in town requires a CC number to book a tee time. Maybe you should talk to them to find out how the mechanics of it work. Restaurants in France frequently require a CC# to book a table. Seems reasonable to me. The only proviso is that if you require an ironclad commitment from me to be there, you also must ensure that my table is ready at the agreed upon time, that only seems fair.

[Keith Talent]

If I'd bothered with the Irish Heather thread prior to posting to this one, I'd have seen all my previous points made. I'm a sucker for a Wyles thread I guess.

Anyway, my point that wasn't already mentioned is I don't know how easy it would be to get Vancouver consumers to accept the CC# with reservation, I think what it would take would be for a high profile outsider to institute the practice in a new establishment, then it could spread to local eateries. Now where is Jerimiah Tower when you really need him?

[Andrew Morrison]

Alternatively, you could go the Wild Rice and Vij's route, but with a twist. You could take no reservations at all, except for parties of six or more, and in that case you take a cc number with a $25 deposit per head.

Just a thought, lay waste to it at your leisure.

Keith is right. If they pay a depo for a reso and their table isn't ready, that's a five minute major...

Edited January 25, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[nwyles]

Just a quick note.

People in Vancouver rarely make resos - only during Xmas and Dine Out. We should tackle that first.

N

[Andrew Morrison]

Hmmm, at my place it's only about 35% walk-ins.

I guess you've got Yaletown pedestrian traffic and aimless walkabouts to contend with. My place, neither.

[Keith Talent]

While we're busy heaping scorn on the consumer, (hey! That's me!) we should also address the restaurant equivilent of no-shows, the unhonoured reservation, ie. just take a seat at the bar and your table will be ready soon.

Last year it happened to me twice, once at Cru and once at the Lumiere tasting bar. Giving me a complimentary cocktail isn't good enough.

[Chocoholic]

As a frequent restaurant customer I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

First off, going the Wild Rice / Vij's route of no reservations doesn't work for me. When we want to go out for a dinner for two we need to organise a babysitter ahead of time and we will be on a schedule. I need to make a reservation for a certain time and cannot afford to wait 1 hour for a table while the babysitter's clock is ticking. We love Wild Rice so when we want to go there we usually do it early on a weeknight and bring the baby. But that is a different experience altogether.

I certainly wouldn't mind giving you my CC # when making a reservation and when I don't show up feel free to charge me a fee, I believe I deserve it. However when I do have to cancel I don't want to have to argue with you please! Things happen, babysitters cancel at the last minute, etc. You are going to have to come up with a solid but also flexible set of rules to make it work. For example if my babysitter cancels one hour before dinner (this has happened) and I call you to cancel, do I still pay the fee? As soon as you start taking people's money as a penalty you enter a zone where you can expect to argue a lot. I strongly believe in common sense and a good dose of fairness on everyone's behalf. As long as we all keep that in mind I will keep coming back to eat, drink and be merry

Lastly, I always book a table when I go out to eat. Once I decide where I want to eat I always look forward to the food too much to risk not getting a table

[Andrew Morrison]

Yeah, totally agree Keith.

IMHO, i think that deserves a "Maitre'd or Hostess? Which is Better?" thread. Many restauranteurs overbook on purpose. I've written about it before.

At a swank place i used to work at we'd compensate for 5 no-shows a night by overbooking 5 tables. If 3 or four have to wait at the bar for half an hour, they were treated like royalty and had part of their meals comped. They got complimentary champagne and were over-served when they finally got to the table. To save you the trip, I think the quote I was looking for from the story i linked to was:

"this was his plan: he’d be forced to turn away or make wait people who made reservations weeks, sometimes months in advance and then test himself and his abilities by seducing the customer back to their original respect and love for the establishment with a bite of cheese and tomato with basil, balsamic and oil, a 2 ounce pour of fortified quaff, and all the rustic grins he could muster.

All the while he’d be promoting the restaurant by handshake, passing around cohibas, and ensuring good press with tons of buzz. He stood at the door and fleeced a line-up full of the city’s starstruck glitterati and stroked the gaggle of agents and handlers with cellphones stuck to their cheeks doing last minute arrangements for their progeny. franco was immensely successful."

Overbooking by design is an unfortunate fact of the restaurant biz, sort of like Congress. It's all about checks and balances. Usually there are no ruffled feathers if things are handled right.

That being said, some resos get lost in translation or just simply lost...regardless of how tight a front door you run.