Philadelphia Tasters' Club

[dagordon]

One observation - these steaks are all supposed to be dry-aged for a significant period of time, yet only a few look dry-aged (i.e. have that  color darker than bright red). The Wolf's Neck Rib-eye appears to me to have the look of wet-aging.

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Several of them, including the Wolfe's Neck, were purchased in cryovac bags, so they were a bit "wet" out of the bag. (The Wolfe's Neck actually had a bit of olive oil in the bag too.) I think they would have a more familiar dry-aged look if they had been patted down w/ paper towel and left out for a bit.

Also, the color of the steaks that had been cryovac'd would have changed if they had been exposed to oxygen for a while, allowing them to "bloom". The raw pictures were taken pretty much right after they were taken out of the bags.

Edited February 9, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[MarketStEl]

I am eternally grateful to Andrew for posting that link to the document describing Japanese grading standards with illustrations. I know know more about marbling and how to spot it as a result. For instance, in the photos below:

(left to right)

1. DiBrunos Dry Aged (Strip) Rib Eye; 2. Wells CAB  (Black Angus); 3. Wells Dry Aged Choice

4. Esposito 21day  Dry Aged Strip; 5. Harry Ochs Dry Aged Porterhouse

6. Whole Foods (Dry Aged) Strip;  7. Wolfe Neck Rib Eye

8. Peter Luger’s Dry Aged Porterhouse;  9. Lobels 6w Dry Aged Porterhouse

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based on looks alone, and only looks, I probably would have graded these, in descending order: 9, 8, 7, 2, 4, 5, 1, 3, 6. Without referring back to the tasters' comments, I don't think that's too far off the actual order of finish in most panelists' eyes, except that 4 was in a class by itself. (Cheesy funk? I loves me some cheesy funk! I may have to ask for one of these the next time I'm in Esposito's.)

I'm not surprised that the Whole Foods steak was so disappointing. It looks like it had about as much marbling as a USDA Select steak. Cooked, it closely resembles what a finished Omaha Steaks strip looks like.

As for Vadouvan's and Andrew's comments about the market not supplying these to the retail customer: Given that the really good stuff is eye-poppingly expensive, I'm not surprised that the demand's not out there. But certainly I think there'd be a market for entry-level USDA Prime steak in the $20/lb range. What were the prices for the lower-ranked cuts?

Based on who I see at the counters when I'm in Esposito's, however, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of Philadelphians aren't really thinking about spending even $20/lb on meat unless it's a very special occasion. "Steak for dinner" probably means the $4.99/lb Lancaster Brand strip, most likely USDA Select, that's on sale at the Acme. Even though someone's buying those pricey new Center City condos, I'm still not sure that the potential customer pool for really high-end meat in the city is large enough for a store to start carrying it on a regular basis. But who knows? Maybe if DiBruno's gets enough letters....

And once again, let me offer up the transformation of USDA Good into USDA Select as further support for my view. This would not have happened were it not for the nutritionists, who really wanted us to eat less red meat, period, but the cattlemen weren't having any of that. So what we got instead was a "leaner, healthier" grade of red meat--the grade one below Choice, with almost no marbling to speak of.

In any event: Should you all decide to take another stab at this, please, please, please, I'd like to stick a fork in it too.

[Vadouvan]

Quickly killing some time, god I love free wi-fi, it's shocking how many people dont have passwords on thier wireless networks.....

A few quick points.

Dibruno Brothers is a respectable operation and I just want us all to clarify the steak "purchased at Dibruno's" VS the "Dibruno's Steak".

They just sell it and arent really responsible for it's flavor profile. I just want some sensitivity to unfairly slamming them. Clearly whole foods has no excuse since they do thier own aging.

See my point ?

On the whole I think Dibruno is a fantastic place and a great addition to the Philadelphia food scene.

We should however start a beef petition, the original point of these thread was to answer these questions, I am sure in the day to day running of a multi-million dollar operation, one doest have time to do objective steak tastings.

It seems a second steak tasting is in order.

That looks absolutely phenomenal. Quick question, did you let the Lobel's steak rest standing up like that for any particular reason?

Others may disagree but when the juices get "redistributed into the meat", I prefer it flows down into the mass of the steak as opposed to sitting flat.

A definitive answer could be sought from Harold Mcgee.

It isnt a big deal but I guess its just a personal quirk.

I rest all meat on though, i think airflow underneath helps.

V, PM me the cost of the steaks other than the Lobel's and Luger's and I'll add them to this post:

Cost of Steaks:

I shall do that in the AM.

One thought- Though the strip comes from the porterhouse, comparing a strip directly to a porterhouse or a filet to that from a porterhouse is not exactly comparing like samples. There is a potentially significant variable as the porterhouse is cooked bone-in while its offspring are not. The bone conceivably adds more than a little flavor to its surrounding protein.

True Doc......just a matter of circumstances and what was available.

Bone -in Steaks do historically for me taste way better.

Oh, I believe someone else inquired about this as well, but I'd like some details on the cooking method as well. I'm assuming they were strictly pan-seared, with no roasting involved, right? Also, what sort of advantage does the carbon steel pan have over cast iron, which is what I would normally use for this?

Actually the first part of the tasting was how to cook a steak.

I suppose you could use cast iron but I just prefer the feel and heat transfer of Carbon Steel.

It also seems to hold it's seasoning better.

Steaks were cooked entirely in the pan, no oven.

It can be done simply by heat control and not moving the steak for any reason once it's in the pan for at least 15 minutes.

If the heat is correct, you get a gentle sizzle, nice sear, good heat penetration.

Important to start from relatively close to room temperature.

season*only* the side face down in the pan.

Season (salt) the other side just before you flip it.

Not too much oil, just a light film, it aint tempura.

Let it rest on a rack perhaps under a heat lamp.

Edited February 9, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Vadouvan]

Philadining...the correct password is....

Neccessito papa fritas por favor.

[philadining]

Wow, this is food porn at its most prurient!

One thought- Though the strip comes from the porterhouse, comparing a strip directly to a porterhouse or a filet to that from a porterhouse is not exactly comparing like samples. There is a potentially significant variable as the porterhouse is cooked bone-in while its offspring are not. The bone conceivably adds more than a little flavor to its surrounding protein.

this is a totally valid point, but we were up against a conundrum: the classic ultimate steak experience is a porterhouse from Lobel's or Luger's, so we wanted to try that. But locally, most places that supplied dry-aged meat all all, only offered strip steaks. For a more even test, we probably should have cut the strips off the porterhouses and cooked them separately, but it would have been heartbreaking! This is irresponsible conjecture, but I think the Lobel's and Luger's steaks were so far out in front that I doubt that the cooking bone-in was significant. But I'm sure it didn't hurt either....

One observation - these steaks are all supposed to be dry-aged for a significant period of time, yet only a few look dry-aged (i.e. have that  color darker than bright red). The Wolf's Neck Rib-eye appears to me to have the look of wet-aging.

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Indeed the variations were interesting, including the suspicion we had that the steak sold to us as dry-aged from Whole Foods might not have been aged at all. And the somewhat clumsy treatment of the DiBruno's steak was interesting: we got a ribeye instead of a strip, and it was not trimmed as one would trim an aged steak...

The Wolf's Neck was really an outlier, not properly part of the comparison, but rather just a very fine piece of beef that V stumbled across on his travels. I'm glad that we had it in there because in comparison to the other steaks, it was an interesting contrast. But it's a little bit apples-and-oranges: a different cut, indeed I think wet-aged, and even treated to a little bit of oilive-oil marination in the vacu-pack for the sake of avoiding drying out. But many ranked it higher than the Luger's as a steak experience, as a piece of beef on a plate.

[dagordon]

based on looks alone, and only looks, I probably would have graded these, in descending order: 9, 8, 7, 2, 4, 5, 1, 3, 6.  Without referring back to the tasters' comments, I don't think that's too far off the actual order of finish in most panelists' eyes, except that 4 was in a class by itself.  (Cheesy funk?  I loves me some cheesy funk!  I may have to ask for one of these the next time I'm in Esposito's.)

Sandy, one thing to note is that beef marbling grades are properties of the entire carcass, not of indiviudal steaks.

The USDA ascertains marbling grade between the 12th and 13th rib.

The Japanese system looks between the 6th and 7th ribs.

[docsconz]

Another question- were the meats distinguished by feed (i.e. grain-fed vs. grass-fed)? I would personally be curious to see the results along those lines. Indeed, were any of the steaks grass-fed? In the U.S. there appears to be a marked predilection for grain-fed beef, but some of the most legendary beef in the world such as that from Argentina is primarily grass-fed.

[mrbigjas]

i propose that the tasters club thread be split into separate threads for each session, before this thread spreads out to 150 pages and nothing is findable.

[dagordon]

Another question- were the meats distinguished by feed (i.e. grain-fed vs. grass-fed)? I would personally be curious to see the results along those lines. Indeed, were any of the steaks grass-fed? In the U.S. there appears to be a marked predilection for grain-fed beef, but some of the most legendary beef in the world such as that from Argentina is primarily grass-fed.

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My understanding (this may be wrong!) is that it's difficult if not impossible to get substantial marbling, even what would be required just for USDA Prime, with solely grass-fed beef. And also that, because of the lower fat content of grass-fed beef, it can't be dry aged for very long.

So I think that most if not all of the steaks in the tasting were grain-fed.

I've never had top-quality grass-fed beef, but my understanding is that it's just a completely different thing from the sort of steaks that were in the tasting and from "steakhouse steak" as we know it.

[dagordon]

The Wolf's Neck was really an outlier, not properly part of the comparison, but rather just a very fine piece of beef that V stumbled across on his travels. I'm glad that we had it in there because in comparison to the other steaks, it was an interesting contrast. But it's a little bit apples-and-oranges: a different cut, indeed I think wet-aged, and even treated to a little bit of oilive-oil marination in the vacu-pack for the sake of avoiding drying out.  But many ranked it higher than the Luger's as a steak experience, as a piece of beef on a plate.

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I'd be totally shocked if the Wolfe's Neck hadn't been dry aged...

[docsconz]

Another question- were the meats distinguished by feed (i.e. grain-fed vs. grass-fed)? I would personally be curious to see the results along those lines. Indeed, were any of the steaks grass-fed? In the U.S. there appears to be a marked predilection for grain-fed beef, but some of the most legendary beef in the world such as that from Argentina is primarily grass-fed.

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My understanding (this may be wrong!) is that it's difficult if not impossible to get substantial marbling, even what would be required just for USDA Prime, with solely grass-fed beef. And also that, because of the lower fat content of grass-fed beef, it can't be dry aged for very long.

So I think that most if not all of the steaks in the tasting were grain-fed.

I've never had top-quality grass-fed beef, but my understanding is that it's just a completely different thing from the sort of steaks that were in the tasting and from "steakhouse steak" as we know it.

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This is what I suspected, although I wonder if the Whole Foods steak may not have been grass-fed. It is because of this alleged difference that I would be particularly interested in a direct comparison.

[dagordon]

This is what I suspected, although I wonder if the Whole Foods steak may not have been grass-fed. It is because of this alleged difference that I would be particularly interested in a direct comparison.

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I'd love to do this comparison too... As you said, though, Americans prefer the grain-fed stuff, and one of the lessons of this tasting is that it's a little difficult to get even that at a really high quality level. I haven't the faintest idea where to get a top quality grass-fed steak in the US.

But if you know of a source, please share!

[docsconz]

This is what I suspected, although I wonder if the Whole Foods steak may not have been grass-fed. It is because of this alleged difference that I would be particularly interested in a direct comparison.

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I'd love to do this comparison too... As you said, though, Americans prefer the grain-fed stuff, and one of the lessons of this tasting is that it's a little difficult to get even that at a really high quality level. I haven't the faintest idea where to get a top quality grass-fed steak in the US.

But if you know of a source, please share!

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I can get good grass-fed beef locally where I live, but it isn't aged. That would have to be done separately. In addition, there is a ranch in Colorado that is particularly known for its grass-fed beef - they were awarded a Slow Food award in the Defense of Biodiversity" in Naples back in 2003. Unfortunately, I can't think of the name of the ranch. They do sell their beeff on-line, although I do not know if it is aged. Then again, I do not know if grass-fed beef even should be aged.

[shacke]

Ok, so I am the guy pushing 40 with 2 kids who is just about getting up now. Mrgibjas is a rookie.

While I have come across many tasting notes, I attempted in a very unscientific way of writing steak notes and then, for the readerss, scoring them like a report card. Very primary – I judged on pure tactile properties: Beefy taste, texture to the tooth and finally mouthfeel. After comparing notes, there were fairly uniform opinions with one or two exception.

Dibrunos dry aged rib eye: This was the first up and I immediately started to sweat. The only clear failure, coarsely textured, light beef flavor – almost grassfed tasting, no pleasant mouthfeel. F

Wells Angus: Moderately soft texture with slight silk. Excellent beefy flavor but lacked richness – good but 1 dimensional flavor B

Wells dry aged choice: Mild softness to the texture, mild but pleasant beef flavor. Lack of mentionable mouthfeel. C

Esposito 21d dry age strip: Very beefy if not possessing an additional gentle tang. Controversial sample. Others were very off-put by this meat. I was not. NB – I enjoy brett notes (barnyard) in my wines. Overall, it had good softness and moderate silk mouthfeel. B

Harry Ochs dry aged porterhouse: Off color, potentially hampered by reduced thickness compared to other samples. While it offered some attempt at real beef taste, it fell flat as did its feel in the mouth. D

Whole Foods dry aged strip: Things going sour again. Very coarse texture, lackluster presence in the mouth. No desirable elements. As Dibrunos sample, anemic flavor as if it had a poor diet of grass only. It actually looked sorry prior to cooking – like it had been bullishly cowtipped it’s whole life by its yardmates. D

Wolfe neck ribe eye: Much better than the others at this point in all respects. Significantly soft toothsome texture, moderately silky mouthfeel, more respectable beefy taste. Good cut nut not outstanding. B

Peter Luger dry aged porterhouse: Very soft texture. First sample where there is a clearly dominant silky mouthfeel. Strong beefy taste – somewhat linear – in that for the intensity of beef taste I would expect more going on on the palate. B+

Lobels 6 wk dry aged porterhouse: Steak of the night for me. Intense tenderness. This is the only cut I would label as delectable. Unctuous mouthfeel, richly textured. Very beefy to the point where the flavor coats the palate and you experience residual taste after it’s gone. A profound piece of meat, richly deserving of it’s reputation. My kingdom to repeat with some mature Bordeaux. Buyer beware though, particularly if eating the even more over the top filet component. This is a belly filler of the highest degree. I could not see myself ingesting more than 8 oz and not feeling repercussions later. A

To put it in perspective, while there were flat out winners and losers, I would happily buy any of these steaks with the exception of Dibrunos, Whole Foods and Ochs.

So there you have it, in a form that I hoped would translate. A point that was brought up last night and again by Mr Big today is – what the heck do we do now?

Well, I classify it into two camps. First one easy – second one harder. For a special occasion or a time where there is planning and you want the best – you buy Lobels. I wouldn’t even bother with the others – why? If you are going to hell, drop in in a golden self cooled hand basket.

The more difficult question is what to do here in Philadelphia for every day purposes. I think given the results of the tasting offer spinoff potential using local cuts that are available widely. Wegmans, Foodsource, local butchers. While they may not elevate themselves into some of tonight’s out of town competition, they may be a good option. I personally thought that the Esposito’s is a fine choice to try at home. Was it a fluke or is this the real deal? Other than that, it’s pretty much SOL. Dibrunos needs to change their supplier – I will add another vote in here for that. Dagordons said they have had good cuts at Whole Foods but inconsistency can be just as bad as the stinker cooked up last night.

One additional thought. These steaks were perfectly seared and cooked. So good that one had to be careful to taste the interior without the crust to properly gauge flavor. That tells me that technique is your friend. Since all the crusts were unanimously delicious, you will get a better experience by eating any pieces intact – crust and crumb.

Necessito mas papas fritas indeed. Great fries and a heck of a salad Vadouvan. As a true lover of French bistro, it is the best bistro meal possible. Steak frites and salad Lyonnaise.

Thanks to Vadouvan, thanks to all.

Evan

[docsconz]

Another thought from someone who wished he could have been there himself:

Obviously the point of doing a blind tasting is to find out what is best. I wonder how each of these would have fared in terms of simple "everyday" enjoyment without the direct comparison - even the "losers."

[Vadouvan]

Obviously the point of doing a blind tasting is to find out what is best. I wonder how each of these would have fared in terms of simple "everyday" enjoyment without the direct comparison - even the "losers."

Seriously Doc.....if you were eating the Whole foods steak and drinking a Richebourg,Sassicaia or Vega Sicilia-Unico, it still would have sucked.

[philadining]

I think that without the head-to-head comparison, most of these steaks would be at least OK for an ordinary steak dinner at home. As Shacke and others have mentioned, both the flavor and texture of some of them left something to be desired, but I'm not sure if any of them were outright unpleasant. That said, I didn't bother to finish my smallish-samples of the Och's, or the Whole Foods, or the Well's Choice, they just didn't have much flavor, or a great mouthfeel. Then again, if I'm making a steak in a pan at home, I'll put a hard crust on it, and do a sauce, and in that context, these might have been acceptable, if not thrilling, if one could distract attention from the baseline meatiness.

And I left some of the Esposito's sample because it was getting to be a bit much for me. It was seeming increasingly weird to my palate as time went on. But obviously, others liked that aspect.

But I think there'd be something to be said for trying a head-to-head of only steaks readily available at retail locally, just to find the best of what's practical, and less than $100 per steak!

[mrbigjas]

I think that without the head-to-head comparison, most of these steaks would be at least OK for an ordinary steak dinner at home. As Shacke and others have mentioned, both the flavor and texture of some of them left something to be desired, but I'm not sure if any of them were outright unpleasant.  That said, I didn't bother to finish my smallish-samples of the Och's, or the Whole Foods, or the Well's Choice, they just didn't have much flavor, or a great mouthfeel.  Then again, if I'm making a steak in a pan at home, I'll put a hard crust on it, and do a sauce, and in that context, these might have been acceptable, if not thrilling, if one could distract attention from the baseline meatiness.

see, that's just a sad state of affairs, and it's why i hardly ever buy a steak anymore.

i was hoping this tasting would turn up a readily-locally-available winner, even if it wasn't up to luger/lobel quality.

as it is, looks like i'll just keep going with my usual flank, skirt, and hanger steaks when i want non-stew beef, sauce them willy-nilly, and save the good cuts for special occasions where i can plan ahead.

a side note: if you want organic 100% grass-fed beef, one of the purveyors at the farmers market at the glenside train station on thursdays during the season sells it. it's frozen and i seriously doubt it's aged, but everything you've heard about it is true: the flavor and texture are totally different. interesting, to me, but maybe not for everyone.

[philadining]

I think this is an interesting point, I haven't had enough purely grass-fed beef to consider myself an authority on it, but what I have had led me to believe that it tended to be more intensely flavored, but leaner, less-marbled, and in general, chewier. Could be worth putting in the mix whenever we get back around to beef!

[shacke]

I think this is an interesting point, I haven't had enough purely grass-fed beef to consider myself an authority on it, but what I have had led me to believe that it tended to be more intensely flavored, but leaner, less-marbled, and in general, chewier.  Could be worth putting in the mix whenever we get back around to beef!

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Doubt that. Grass fed is a better environmental and healthful choice but it is not worthy competition. Having said that, people often enjoy grass fed flavor. Indeed with that however comes a loss of that sexy texture - at least with current bovinology technique.

Edited February 9, 2007 by shacke (log)

[townsend]

The Wolf's Neck was really an outlier, not properly part of the comparison, but rather just a very fine piece of beef that V stumbled across on his travels. I'm glad that we had it in there because in comparison to the other steaks, it was an interesting contrast. But it's a little bit apples-and-oranges: a different cut, indeed I think wet-aged, and even treated to a little bit of oilive-oil marination in the vacu-pack for the sake of avoiding drying out.  But many ranked it higher than the Luger's as a steak experience, as a piece of beef on a plate.

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I'd be totally shocked if the Wolfe's Neck hadn't been dry aged...

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30 days dry, cryovaced with evo and thyme when the whole rack was broken down. Approx. 7 days in cryo.

Tod

[Vadouvan]

Just a quick mention since this obsession with clarity is bothering me.....

The meat from Dibruno's was from a supplier called Rastelli's in New Jersey.

SO.........Rastelli's Meats.

I remember clearly off the top of my head that is was $24.12, for some reason i remember math trivia (24/2=12).

Anyways it was about 18 oz.

Now factoring in PRICE........

Rastelli Steak from dibruno RETAILED at $24.12

Both Wells WHOLESALED at roughly $26 dollars which would make them double the price.

Harry Ochs RETAILED at $31

Whole Foods RETAILED at $24

Esposito WHOLESALED at Mid 20's

Thoughts on value ???????

[Andrew Fenton]

Grass-fed vs. grain-fed might make for an interesting comparison, as well as raise the interesting question of whether we ought to privilege flavor or texture in beef.

A comparison based on breed of cattle would also be really interesting. I don't know what breeds we were eating last night. The Wells Angus was, well, Angus. But the others... Hereford? I don't know.

I'd like to see a national cattle breed smackdown: say, Angus vs. Wagyu vs. Chianina vs. whatever it is they serve down in Argentina. WHO! WILL! WIN!!!

[docsconz]

Obviously the point of doing a blind tasting is to find out what is best. I wonder how each of these would have fared in terms of simple "everyday" enjoyment without the direct comparison - even the "losers."

Seriously Doc.....if you were eating the Whole foods steak and drinking a Richebourg,Sassicaia or Vega Sicilia-Unico, it still would have sucked.

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Wow, that must have really been pretty bad!

[docsconz]

Grass-fed vs. grain-fed might make for an interesting comparison, as well as raise the interesting question of whether we ought to privilege flavor or texture in beef.

A comparison based on breed of cattle would also be really interesting.  I don't know what breeds we were eating last night.  The Wells Angus was, well, Angus.  But the others... Hereford?  I don't know.

I'd like to see a national cattle breed smackdown: say, Angus vs. Wagyu vs. Chianina vs. whatever it is they serve down in Argentina.  WHO!  WILL!  WIN!!!

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Now this is an interesting idea. Sounds like they could do a tv show based on this!