Rob Roy

[ThinkingBartender]

So while looking for the earliest citation for the Rob Roy, I found this:

Centralia Enterprise And Tribune, 4th December 1897

"The Fifth Avenue hotel has two new drinks this winter, the Star cocktail and the Rob Roy cocktail. The Star has a flavor of Jersey about it, for its chief ingredient is apple jack, vermouth and orange bitters making up the rest. Of course, the Rob Roy is made of Scotch whisky. It is completed by vermouth and orange bitters."

Does anyone know what recipe was being used at that time, as the earliest recipe from a cocktail book, that I can find is as follows:

Be A Good Mixer, Here's How; by Emmet Atherton, 1933

Rob Roy Cocktail

* Fill glass half full with shaved ice.

* 2 dashes orange bitters

* One quarter wine glass Scotch Whiskey [sic]

* One Quarter wine glass French Vermouth

Stir well and strain into a cocktail glass. Twist a piece of lemon peel on top and serve

Now with French Vermouth meaning Dry Vermouth does that mean that a Rob Roy is meant to be a Dry Scotch Manhattan? or would the 1897 recipe mean Sweet Vermouth?

Cheers!

George

Edited December 17, 2006 by ThinkingBartender (log)

[thirtyoneknots]

As the original Martini recipe is understood to have used Italian vermouth, but now is universally accepted as dry, could it be that there was a trend in switching to dry vermouth in drinks that had originally used the sweeter style? Or possibly could something the other way around have happened, maybe as a result of the consensus that whisk(e)y goes better with sweet? Nothing to back this up of course, just idle musings.

-Andy

[eje]

Was the Rob Roy not in the original release of the Savoy Cocktail Book in 1930?

The version of the Savoy I have includes it as follows:

Rob Roy Cocktail

1 dash angustura bitters

1/2 Italian Vermouth

1/2 Scotch Whisky

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass

Particularly for Saint Andrew's Day, to open the evening for the usual enormous annual gathering of the clans at the Savoy.

[ThinkingBartender]

According to the American Dialect Society, there is a copy of the "Grand Union Hotel New York Wine List." from 1895 (NYHS 1895-14D), and in that list are the following drinks:

Absinthe (Cocktail; Drip; Frappe)

Ammonia and Seltzer

Apenta

Apollinaris (Lemonade)

Bear Lithia Water

Bi-Carbonate of Soda

Brandy (Cocktail; Daisy; Egg Nogg; Fizz; Flip; Float; Milk Punch; Mint Julep;

Punch; Rickey; Sling; Smash; Sour; Toddy)

Bromo-Caffeine

Bromo Seltzer

Bronx Cocktail

Cafe Kirsch

Calisaya (Cocktail; and Vichy)

Cardinal Sour

Champagne Cider

Claret (and Seltzer; Lemonade; Punch; Sling)

Coffee Cocktail

Cordial Cocktail

Cream Fizz

Dubonnet (Cocktail; Punch)

Egg Lemonade

Egg Nogg (Brandy; Whiskey; Phosphate)

Fruit Lemonade

Gin (Cocktail; Daisy; Fizz; Punch; Rickey; Sling; Smash; Sour; Toddy)

Ginger Ale High Ball, Extra

Golden Fizz

Grenadine Punch

Horses Neck (Domestic; Imported)

Hot Apple (Toddy; Brandy; Claret; Gin; Lemonade (with Brandy or Whiskey);

Rum; Rye; Scotch)

John Collins

Knickebein

Lemon Juice (and Seltzer)

Lemon Squash

Long Drinks, Extra

Lone Tree Cocktail

Madeira, Leacock & Co.

Mamie Taylor

Manhattan Cocktail

Marguerite

Martini Cocktail

Milk (Punch; Shake)

Orangeade (with Seltzer; with Brandy; with Whiskey)

Plain Lemonade

Port Wine (Cockburn's; Sandeman's; Flip; Sangaree)

Pousse Cafe

Remsen Cooler

Rhine Wine (Cobbler; Punch; Sangaree; with Seltzer)

Rob Roy Cocktail

Rock and Rye

Rocky Mountain Oyster

Royal Fizz

Rum (and Molasses; Milk Punch; Sling; Smash; Sour; Toddy)

Sam Ward

Sarsaparilla Cooler

Seltzer (Lemonade; Lemonade with Brandy)

Seltzer Lemonade with Whiskey (and Milk)

Shamrock Cocktail

Sherry (Amontillado, Pemartin & Co.; Cocktail; Cobbler; Egg Flip; Egg Nogg;

Punch; Sangaree; and Egg)

Side Drinks, Extra

Silver Fizz

Soda Cocktail

Soda Lemonade

Star Cocktail

Stone Fence

Suissesse

Tom Collins

Vermouth Cocktail

Vichy (and Milk)

Whiskey (Cocktail; Cooler; Daisy; Egg Nogg; Fizz; Flip; Milk Punch; Mint

Julep; Rickey; Punch; Sling; Smash; Sour; Toddy)

Zaza Cocktail

Even though this list is said to be from 1895, I am not sure about that, as I thought the Mamie Taylor was from 1899/ 1900.

Edited December 17, 2006 by ThinkingBartender (log)

[Splificator]

Even though this list is said to be from 1895, I am not sure about that, as I thought the Mamie Taylor was from 1899/ 1900.

←

The lead-pipe cinch giveaway here is the Zaza: the French play of that name opened in Paris in 1898; David Belasco's Broadway version, after which the cocktail was assuredly named, opened in January, 1899.

Edited for wieldiness.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Splificator (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Bumping this up because I just had a god-awful Rob Roy using Bowmore, Carpano Antica, and Peychaud's. Made me wish I had some Asyla in the house.

What are people's favorite Rob Roy combos?

[bostonapothecary]

Bumping this up because I just had a god-awful Rob Roy using Bowmore, Carpano Antica, and Peychaud's. Made me wish I had some Asyla in the house.

What are people's favorite Rob Roy combos?

←

i just did a bobby burns for the boston globe... i made a vermouth that was bitter and complex but captured a certain sexy shade of fruit to contrast the scotch and its delicate smokiness... the fruit was not dark and heavy but a really summery flirtaceous shade of cherry... amonst the other botanicals wormwood and orris provided the delicate bitter notes... the vermouth reminds me of summer but to make the drink fit the season, to the cocktail, i added a smoonful of chestnut flower honey liqueur...

[Alchemist]

3 oz Famous Grouse,

1 oz M&R sweet vermouth

1/2 oz Noilly Prat Dry,

Rinse of Peat Monster,

3 dash orange bitters,

2 dash Peychaud's

S,S,SU. Twist of lemon.

or

1.5 oz Famous Grouse

1.5 oz Mac 12

.75 oz Carpano Antica

.75 oz NP dry vermouth

3 dash Angostura

S,S,SU. 1 dash orange bitters. Twist of lemon.

These are both riffs on my 222 Manhattan.

Toby

[eje]

Bumping this up because I just had a god-awful Rob Roy using Bowmore, Carpano Antica, and Peychaud's. Made me wish I had some Asyla in the house.

What are people's favorite Rob Roy combos?

←

I haven't had Bowmore in particular, but from what I know it is regarded as a decent Scotch. What didn't work for you about that Rob Roy? Just the Islay flavor profile?

I think Alchemist is right on, using the strongly flavored Scotches as accents with other, uh, less flavorful whiskys.

[Chris Amirault]

It tasted like a train wreck: didn't blend into anything coherent, just a jumble of flavors dominated by the Bowmore's peat.

[slkinsey]

As far as I know, the Rob Roy is a blended whisky cocktail. It's not too surprising that it doesn't work well with an assertive, peaty, smoky, briny Islay single malt like Bowmore. I assume Chris used Bowmore Legend, which is an 8 year whisky. At this young age especially, it won't have the smoothess to cooperate with other ingredients in a cocktail like the Rob Roy.

Personally, I think that Famous Grouse is an excellent choice for a Rob Roy, not to mention being an oustanding product. Compass Box's Asyla is a great choice as well.

I'm not sure that Islay whiskies are a good choice for something like a Rob Roy in any substantial amount. I note that Toby's examples include only a mere rinse of Peat Monster (a Compass Box blend including both Islay whiskies and highland whiskies which is less assertive than a full-on Islay single malt) in the first version and a 50/50 blend of Famous Grouse and The Macallan 12 (a smooth, malty Highlands malt that does not have much in the way of peat and smoke) in the second version. Neither of these will even approach the rough-and-tumble assertiveness of a young Islay single malt.

In general -- and someone like Dave is undoubtedly better informed on this than I -- I believe that most historical cocktails calling for "scotch" are calling for blended scotch. Even today, something like 90% of scotch is used for blends, and single malts have exploded in popularity only in the last 20 years or so. Single malts can be so distinctive and different that I note that the few modern cocktails employing a single malt whisky always specifies the brand and age.

[Nathan]

right. though I have had success subbing Peat Monster for Laphroaig and vice versa....

[Kent Wang]

I've mixed Bowmore Legend. I totally agree with Sam about its lack of mixability, but I love Islays so much that I think it's pretty damn good -- but I know I'm probably in the minority.

[eje]

[...]

In general -- and someone like Dave is undoubtedly better informed on this than I -- I believe that most historical cocktails calling for "scotch" are calling for blended scotch.

[...]

←

Not Mr. Wondrich (I assume that is the "Dave" yer referring to...) but I can quote from his book, "Imbibe":

For Scotch Whisky, you'll want something strong and smoky and single-malty.  The Laphroaig cask-strength and the Talisker both fit the bill.  For drinks from the very end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, though, you'll want a blended Scotch.  I like White Horse or Johnnie Walker.

I was gonna say, getting a Rob Roy in America any time in the last 50 years made from anything other than Johnnie Walker Red (or maybe Black) would probably have been pretty unusual.

Also, in regards to chrisamirault's original dilemma, something like 1 1/2 oz Canadian Club (or 40 Creek) and 1/2 ounce Bowmore might also be a good way to slice it. Blend-yer-own.

[Amarantha]

I've been making Rob Roys with some 18yo Glenfiddich my Mum got duty-free. I'm by no means an expert, but I like 'em like that

The Islays I save for sipping

[slkinsey]

[...]

In general -- and someone like Dave is undoubtedly better informed on this than I -- I believe that most historical cocktails calling for "scotch" are calling for blended scotch.[...]

Not Mr. Wondrich (I assume that is the "Dave" yer referring to...) but I can quote from his book, "Imbibe":

For Scotch Whisky, you'll want something strong and smoky and single-malty.  The Laphroaig cask-strength and the Talisker both fit the bill.  For drinks from the very end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, though, you'll want a blended Scotch.  I like White Horse or Johnnie Walker.

In my copy this is from page 61, in the section discussing ingredients. I believe the recommendation for intense single malts is primarily with an eye for Toddies (more on this below). In any event, the Rob Roy dates to circa 1895, which would put it in the "blended era" for Scotch in America according to the passage you quoted above. Having looked over my copy, I think this passage from the section on the Rob Roy is more apropos:

In the 1900s and '10s, Scotch whisky was all the rage.  In the past it had been imported in smallish quantities in its pure malt form and generally consumed hot (see the Hot toddy, page 137).  With the introduction of golf into America in the 1890s, there was a new interest in all things Scottish.  The whisky salesmen, real pioneers in the black arts of marketing, did not let this slip by thenm, and before you knew it Tommy Dewar and his ilk were sluicing the American provinces with liberal amounts of the new blended whiskies.

Considering the paucity of Scotch cocktails, it would seem that the non-Toddy types were designed post-1890 and therefore call for blended scotch. Like Dave, I love an intense (and hopefully high proof) Islay malt for my Toddies, but I have to wonder whether this was particularly common given what is presumed to be rather scarse availability of Scotch whisky in America prior to the introduction of blended Scotch whiskies. Needless to say, Dave will have better data on this than I.

Interesting to see that Scotch's popularity in America was driven by the popularity of golf. I've always considered myself a strict traditionalist when it comes to golf, and I insist on only playing golf in its original form: tanked out of my gourd on Scotch and wearing a kilt.

I was gonna say, getting a Rob Roy in America any time in the last 50 years made from anything other than Johnnie Walker Red (or maybe Black) would probably have been pretty unusual.

I haven't been alive for 50 years, but coming from a Scotch-drinking American family of Scottish extraction, I've never noticed that it was any trouble getting brands like Famous Grouse (the top-seller in Scotland), Dewar's, Cutty Sark, etc.

Edited January 23, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[GordonCooks]

The only single malt I would attempt would be Macallan 12 which is pretty light. Otherwise, my Robs and Rustys are made with Johnnie Black are a rule.

[TBoner]

The only single malt I would attempt would be Macallan 12 which is pretty light. Otherwise, my Robs and Rustys are made with Johnnie Black are a rule.

←

JW Black is mighty fine for both of those drinks. But I'm with Mr. Kinsey on using the Grouse in my Rob Roy. For Rusty Nails, something about the kippery (a friend on another forum called it bacon fat) edge of Teacher's does the trick for me.

JW Black is rarely around my place, since I sip my single malts and use the aforementioned blends for mixers (or sipping on occasion). But it is a damn fine product and worthy of neat sipping, rocks drinking, or cocktail blending. I need to get a bottle.

[phlip]

Just wanted to chime in for Famous Grouse myself, use it in our well and well it does very well. CB Asayla does its part quite agreeably also. We've recently put a Scotland Yard section on our menu, anyone else out there have some new and exciting Scotch cocktails to mention? I think it is a very under utilized spirit, it being one of the most complex.

[Chris Amirault]

Got just the thing in this here topic. I again repeat my appreciation for The Bairn.

[eje]

Speaking of blending...

Whenever we go back to Wisconsin, I really enjoy when we get a chance to go out to old-school Wisconsin supper clubs for a fish fry or other dinner. Often I've seen some really impressive older bartenders slinging old-fashioneds and Martinis. You never know when you can learn a thing or two.

One of my in-laws favorite place for fish fry is the Hiawatha Club in Wausau, Wisconsin. Great fish fry and a great bartender. Starts making my mother-in-law's bourbon old-fashioned and my father-in-law's Gordon's Martini the minute he sees them at the hostess station, so they'll have drinks ready by the time they get to the bar.

The last time I was there, I thought I would deviate from my usual old-fashioned and ask for a Bourbon Manhattan, rocks. He went with the usual generous pour of Jim Beam Bourbon, M&R Sweet Vermouth, bitters, but he also added something from a rail bottle. I didn't get a chance to ask what it had been, thinking maybe syrup or triple sec (wouldn't that be old-school!) so got a good look at the bottle and reminded myself to look around the next time we got to the grocery store.

Turned out, (unless he was refilling liquor bottles with simple,) that he had added a dash of Cluny Scotch (Blended Scotch, bottled and distributed by Heaven Hill.)

Interesting way to punch up the Beam Bourbon!

[weinoo]

Just wanted to chime in for Famous Grouse myself, use it in our well and well it does very well. CB Asayla does its part quite agreeably also. We've recently put a Scotland Yard section on our menu, anyone else out there have some new and exciting Scotch cocktails to mention? I think it is a very under utilized spirit, it being one of the most complex.

←

Tasted a few of those Scotland Yard variations last night, and though not a big scotch drinker, they were quite good and may have me leaning in that direction on occasion.

[bostonapothecary]

Just wanted to chime in for Famous Grouse myself, use it in our well and well it does very well. CB Asayla does its part quite agreeably also. We've recently put a Scotland Yard section on our menu, anyone else out there have some new and exciting Scotch cocktails to mention? I think it is a very under utilized spirit, it being one of the most complex.

←

Tasted a few of those Scotland Yard variations last night, and though not a big scotch drinker, they were quite good and may have me leaning in that direction on occasion.

←

does anyone have an opinion on johnny walker red label?? i've never given it the time of day but hear it is blended with a large amount of talisker and its youthfulness make it very good for cocktails?

[thirtyoneknots]

Just wanted to chime in for Famous Grouse myself, use it in our well and well it does very well. CB Asayla does its part quite agreeably also. We've recently put a Scotland Yard section on our menu, anyone else out there have some new and exciting Scotch cocktails to mention? I think it is a very under utilized spirit, it being one of the most complex.

←

Tasted a few of those Scotland Yard variations last night, and though not a big scotch drinker, they were quite good and may have me leaning in that direction on occasion.

←

does anyone have an opinion on johnny walker red label?? i've never given it the time of day but hear it is blended with a large amount of talisker and its youthfulness make it very good for cocktails?

←

I haven't had it in quite a while but I remember liking it just fine but finding it a little rough around the edges. It was, I think, on the rocks, so that roughness would probably be an asset in a cocktail, making itself felt more than a milder whisky would.

[Alchemist]

I like the Red to work with in cocktails. It is sweeter and less smoky than black thereby making it "play better with others" than the Black, Green or Blue. I love making cocktails with the Gold,, it is smooth and bold with fantastic honey notes. Yes it seems a little pricey, but if you wanna be a playa...

Toby