Rosie's Buttercream...

[Sarah Phillips]

And I do not know about the to chill or not to chill the icing. However, Sarah has a similar formula on her site and it says the iced cake can be kept at room temp for several days.

And I could be wrong but I think it's (leaving out a glass of cream as opposed to leaving out an iced cake) different because of the process the ingredients go through changes everything up. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from old icing. Mostly because once icing goes bad, you can't even stay in the same room with it if your nose is in proper working condition.

I'd say between Sarah and Rosie it's as they say. Fine at room temp.

Greater minds than mine will reply though.

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Hi K8!

The recipe you linked to on your post on baking911.com, has a different proportion of cream to powdered sugar and fat than Rosie's recipe, and mine does not refrigeration. That's the difference between the two!

[Sarah Phillips]

but I've wondered about using a blow dryer or heat gun to get the whites as hot as possible before adding the syrup, so that the syrup would push the whites into pasteurization temps. . .

Hmmm...it's a very interesting thought, Patrick...

[RodneyCk]

I just wanted to pop in and say thanks to Patrick and the others that have posted here regarding my question about confections, a wealth of information. Also, thank you Sarah for weighing in, it is always interesting to see how authors respond, especially to this topic. There are so many conflicting statements out there.

[Dailey]

sanrensho,

yes, it hardens like IMBC when refriderated, however, i left part of it out for a couple days just to see if it would go "bad", ( just out of curiousity) and it was fine. of course, it was just for me and my taste-testers and not for a customer. then again, i'm like eileen in the sense that i think we go a bit overboard on the refrideration issue. my family is from mexico so i grew up with things not refriderated that would make others gasp. i mean, my dad has been drinking a shake made from raw eggs every day since as far back as i can remember.

cheryl, i just mixed all the ingredients in my KA with the whisk attachment for about 10 minutes, it looked terribly curdled. then i switched to the paddle and let it go on high for about 15 min. and it became perfectly light and fluffy. here is what rosie says about the buttercream

"a fluffy white frosting not overly sugary. this recipe is one you'll use often. it last several days out of the refriderator, but will require rewhipping after it sits out for a while to restore its fluffy texture."

1. place all ingredients in food processor and process until light and fluffy, about 5 min. stop machine several times to scrape down the sides of the bowl with rubber spatula.

2. transfer the buttercream to a med-size bowl and using paddle attachment of electric mixer, continue to beat on med-high until buttercream is white and fluffy (it really does turn white!) 15-20 min. stop the mixer to scrape the bowl several times with rubber spatula. if you don't have paddle attachment, used the whisk. use frosting within an hour or it will need rewhipping. makes 2-2 1/4 cups, enought to fill and frost 2 or 4 layer cake.

hey, maybe rosie did have this tested, maybe i'll email her and ask.

thanks again for all the input.

[sanrensho]

sanrensho,

  yes, it hardens like IMBC when refriderated, however, i left part of it out for a couple days just to see if it would go "bad", ( just out of curiousity) and it was fine.  of course, it was just for me and my taste-testers and not for a customer.  then again, i'm like eileen in the sense that i think we go a bit overboard on the refrideration issue.

Thanks for the comments. I'm not ultra-paranoid in any sense (raw eggs=no problem), but I'd still feel more comfortable refrigerating this particular buttercream and bringing it up to room temp for consumption. It's a minor step anyway and only means that I have to clear up some fridge space.

I hope Rosie responds to you. Would be interesting to hear what she says.

[Sarah Phillips]

then again, i'm like eileen in the sense that i think we go a bit overboard on the refrideration issue. 

I tend to agree with you and Eileen!

Look, I just hired a microbiologist/food scientist. We will be "publishing" a chart on baking911.com outlining which frostings need refrigeration and which ones don't and WHY. I have been asked this question so many times, I decided to do a whole study on the topic!

We just started today! http://www.baking911.com/asksarahbb/index.php?showtopic=1299

Edited September 25, 2006 by Sarah Phillips (log)

[RodneyCk]

Does this recipe harden quite a bit at fridge temps, like a typical IMB? What is the consistency like at fridge temps?

Due to the whipping cream, I'd be loathe to have this sitting out for a few days, but would consider using it straight out of the fridge or for immediate consumption. Depending on the consistency, of course.

Thanks.

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I put mine in the refrigerator mostly to see how firm it got. It was not all that stiff, firm though, just right actually, so in my opinion, it could be eaten right from the fridge. It is a wonderful recipe, and yes, not overly sweet which is why I am drawn to it, and one I hope to perfect soon, lol.

Edited September 25, 2006 by RodneyCk (log)

[sanrensho]

I put mine in the refrigerator mostly to see how firm it got.  It was not all that stiff, firm though, just right actually, so in my opinion, it could be eaten right from the fridge.  It is a wonderful recipe, and yes, not overly sweet which is why I am drawn to it, and one I hope to perfect soon, lol.

Hmm, now I'm very interested after hearing this.

Rodney, would you mind perfecting a few flavorings while you're at it?

[SweetSide]

...

cheryl, i just mixed all the ingredients in my KA with the whisk attachment for about 10 minutes, it looked terribly curdled.  then i switched to the paddle and let it go on high for about 15 min. and it became perfectly light and fluffy.  here is what rosie says about the buttercream

"a fluffy white frosting not overly sugary.  this recipe is one you'll use often.  it last several days out of the refriderator, but will require rewhipping after it sits out for a while to restore its fluffy texture."

1. place all ingredients in food processor and process until light and fluffy, about 5 min.  stop machine several times to scrape down the sides of the bowl with rubber spatula.

2. transfer the buttercream to a med-size bowl and using paddle attachment of electric mixer, continue to beat on med-high until buttercream is white and fluffy (it really does turn white!) 15-20 min.  stop the mixer to scrape the bowl several times with rubber spatula.  if you don't have paddle attachment, used the whisk.  use frosting within an hour or it will need rewhipping.  makes 2-2 1/4 cups, enought to fill and frost 2 or 4 layer cake.

...

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Hmmm, I'm wondering if the food processor part is because there is so much cream being added that it needs to have those blades to help emulsify the cream into the butter and sugar. Then the mixer gets it fluffy.

I'm wondering, too, that if you beat the butter and sugar in the mixer and add the cream slowly if it will prevent the mixture from going through the curdled stage and maybe cut down on the length of time to get it to come together?

Any expert care to weigh in on those thoughts of mine? Just tell me if I'm out in left field....

[RodneyCk]

Hmmm, I'm wondering if the food processor part is because there is so much cream being added that it needs to have those blades to help emulsify the cream into the butter and sugar.  Then the mixer gets it fluffy.

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This was the question I had as well. The food processor also might help the slightly gritty texture from the powdered sugar which I experienced by incorporating it, although I admit I had to add a little more than the recipe called for to make mine work, so this might be my own error.

[Sarah Phillips]

i just finished making this buttercream from judy rosenberg's book, its very good.  i like the fact that she says it doesn't need refrideration, has anyone used it and do you know how it holds up on a cake that has been filled and iced with it?  seems awful light and delicate.  looks like it would smooth like a dream, though.

buttercream recipe

1 stick of butter

1 1/4 cup powered sugar

3/4 cup plus 2 tb. chilled heavy whipping cream

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FYI: This one was analyzed by my food scientist and needs refrigeration..... explanation on

http://www.baking911.com/asksarahbb/index.php?showtopic=1299

[K8memphis]

Sugarella was right! Cool for her.

[RodneyCk]

FYI: This one was analyzed by my food scientist and needs refrigeration..... explanation on

http://www.baking911.com/asksarahbb/index.php?showtopic=1299

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THAT is the kind of answer I was looking for and it supports Patrick's post. Luckily, as I remarked previously, this is probably one of the best icings to use that needs refrigeration. Its low butter ratio does not turn the buttercream into a brick.

I really need to get one of those food biologists. Do they come in pocket size?

“Sugarella was right! Cool for her.”

K8, actually she was half correct. As the recipe is written it needs refrigeration, but with slightly more sugar, as Sarah pointed out, despite the fact it uses heavy whipping cream, it can be safely edible at room temperature.

Edited September 25, 2006 by RodneyCk (log)

[Sarah Phillips]

Sugarella was right! Cool for her.

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I agree! Hip-hip Hurray, sugarella! ~

[Sarah Phillips]

I really need to get one of those food biologists.  Do they come in pocket size? 

HA! They're very, very expensive! ~

[JeanneCake]

Hi Sarah - Thank you for commissioning the study - everyone will benefit!

It would be useful/interesting to ask the expert how long the frosting can be held at rm temp (measured in hours, or days) when freshly made - not how long it can be held on a cake because you could make the frosting on Wed and not use it until Friday and then ... (e.g., in Colette's books, she routinely suggests that one recipe or another can be held at rm temp for 1-2 days; or RLB's Cake Bible also has storage times listed in the recipe itself).

[Sarah Phillips]

Hi Sarah - Thank you for commissioning the study - everyone will benefit!

It would be useful/interesting to ask the expert how long the frosting can be held at rm temp (measured in hours, or days) when freshly made - not how long it can be held on a cake because you could make the frosting on Wed and not use it until Friday and then ... (e.g., in Colette's books, she routinely suggests that one recipe or another can be held at rm temp for 1-2 days; or RLB's Cake Bible also has storage times listed in the recipe itself).

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You are welcome.

Ok, I will do my best -- good ideas!

I have baked good storage charts I put together on my website with my expert years ago that answer your questions based upon research we did.... http://www.baking911.com/pantry/storage_baked_goods.htm

Some of it has to be edited and updated as I am currently doing -- If you have any questions, please ask. Also, look at the current information we are researching (on the link on my other post) because we are going to do a lot more with it -- I am just frustrated with people asking me questions and no one having answers! So, I decided I am going to attempt to provide as many as I can!! I hope it all helps!

Edited September 25, 2006 by Sarah Phillips (log)

[Dailey]

Does this recipe harden quite a bit at fridge temps, like a typical IMB? What is the consistency like at fridge temps?

Due to the whipping cream, I'd be loathe to have this sitting out for a few days, but would consider using it straight out of the fridge or for immediate consumption. Depending on the consistency, of course.

Thanks.

←

I put mine in the refrigerator mostly to see how firm it got. It was not all that stiff, firm though, just right actually, so in my opinion, it could be eaten right from the fridge. It is a wonderful recipe, and yes, not overly sweet which is why I am drawn to it, and one I hope to perfect soon, lol.

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mine was put in the fridge for a short time and it hardened considerably. i used a fork to break off a few pieces so i could put them in the microwave for a couple seconds so i could spread it on a piece of cake. wonder why you and i had such different results? oh, and i emailed rosie and she promptly emailed me back. she said she has been using this partiucular recipe for over 30 years and have always left it out for several days with no problems whatsoever. she also said the sugar acted as a preservative.

edit: i just read the link sarah posted, very interesting! however, i'm still confused as this is very vague. when she says it doesn't need refrideration, is it for a day, 2 days, more? is it different for all the icings she posted or is there a general rule? i can't wait to hear more! *just went back and read it again, i see where she states 2-3 days, answered my own question.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Dailey (log)

[Sarah Phillips]

oh, and i emailed rosie and she promptly emailed me back.   she said she has been using this partiucular recipe for over 30 years and have always left it out for several days with no problems whatsoever.  she also said the sugar acted as a preservative.

Dailey,

All I am doing is providing a scientific study by a professional food scientist on which frostings should be refrigerated and which ones shouldn't. If someone choses not to refrigerate something, it is up to them. Just because noone has gotten sick from the practice, does not mean it is not safe according to the scientific guidelines I am providing. I expect my findings to upset a lot of people and to cause lots of controversy. However, anyone can chose what they would like to do in the end, and decide whether or not to refrigerate their frostings.

[Patrick S]

One point I'd make is that storage guidelines usually seem excessive because they are designed to practically eliminate the risk of foodbourne illness, by preactically eliminating the conditions that allow pathogens to grow on food. If a given product is said to have certain time/temperature requirements, that obviously does not mean that a person who consumes the product when it has been held outside of those time/temperature requirements will get sick. It doesn't even mean that pathogens will have grown to unsafe levels -- for all we know, the product may never have even been innoculated or seeded with the harmful microbe. All it means is that the conditions were such that that could have happened.

Most of us have many, many experiences violating food safety guidelines and living to tell the tale. For instance, virtually every food safety expert would caution against consuming raw egg yolks because of the risk of salmonellosis, but the truth is that most eggs will not have any salmonella, and you might consume raw eggs your whole life without getting sick. But there is a risk. Some eggs do have salmonella, in quantities that can make you sick. The risk is there, it is just very small.

So the point is that while food safety guidelines sometimes seem excessive (I will continue to use raw eggs), they are not totally arbitrary -- they really are for the most part based on what is known about conditions necessary for pathogens to proliferate on food.

Another point is that the vast majority of foodbourne illness is mild and self-resolves in a short period of time with no medical intervention. The CDC estimates that there are 76 million cases of foodbourne illnesses a year in the US, but that there are only 325 thousand hospitilizations and 5 thousand deaths. So, the serious cases of foodbourne illness are very much the exception -- only like 1/234 will require a hospitization, and only about 1/15,000 will result in death.

Usually the sickened person has no way of knowing why they were sick or whether it was even a foodbourne illness at all. For instance, the people who have been sickened by eating spinach with E. coli O157 had no way of knowing the spinach made them sick.

So, when Rosie says that "she has been using this partiucular recipe for over 30 years and have always left it out for several days with no problems whatsoever," its fair to ask, what does she mean, and how does she know? Does she mean that no one has ever dropped dead, mid-bite, with a forkful of her icing in hand? I'm being facetious, of course, but a lot of people do have an almost as simplistic view of the subject, and dont understand how hard it is to even determine that a given illness is from food, much less a particular food that they consumed 12-36 hours earlier. I think its safe to say that most bakers are not in the habit of asking their customers whether they experienced any nausea or diarrhea within 12-36 hours of eating their products.

[Sarah Phillips]

Well said, Patrick! Thank you.

[Dailey]

sarah, i just wanted to post rosie's comment on the subject, that's all. i'm thrilled that you are having these recipes tested, i, for one, really appreciate it! if i make this buttercream for my customers i will add the extra bit of sugar to make it deemed safe at room temperature. i'm hoping it doesn't make it too sweet though cause i love it just the way it is, hmmm, maybe i'll add an extra 1 TB of salted butter?

and patrick, how'd you get so smart? well said, as always.

[SweetSide]

Does this recipe harden quite a bit at fridge temps, like a typical IMB? What is the consistency like at fridge temps?

Due to the whipping cream, I'd be loathe to have this sitting out for a few days, but would consider using it straight out of the fridge or for immediate consumption. Depending on the consistency, of course.

Thanks.

←

I put mine in the refrigerator mostly to see how firm it got. It was not all that stiff, firm though, just right actually, so in my opinion, it could be eaten right from the fridge. It is a wonderful recipe, and yes, not overly sweet which is why I am drawn to it, and one I hope to perfect soon, lol.

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mine was put in the fridge for a short time and it hardened considerably. i used a fork to break off a few pieces so i could put them in the microwave for a couple seconds so i could spread it on a piece of cake. wonder why you and i had such different results? ...

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Rodney, you said you added more sugar to yours, correct? That could have made the difference in the refrigerated texture.

[RodneyCk]

Rodney, you said you added more sugar to yours, correct?  That could have made the difference in the refrigerated texture.

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I did indeed and I believe I should have beaten it another 5 to 10 minutes because it was a little weepy still, at least to my eye. So, this could account for it not becoming super stiff in the fridge.

The more I think about it, the more I believe the food processor is key, emulsifying the ingredients together like a good salad dressing.

[JeanneCake]

Another point is that the vast majority of foodbourne illness is mild and self-resolves in a short period of time with no medical intervention. The CDC estimates that there are 76 million cases of foodbourne illnesses a year in the US, but that there are only 325 thousand hospitilizations and 5 thousand deaths. So, the serious cases of foodbourne illness are very much the exception -- only like 1/234 will require a hospitization, and only about  1/15,000 will result in death.

Usually the sickened person has no way of knowing why they were sick or whether it was even a foodbourne illness at all. For instance, the people who have been sickened by eating spinach with E. coli O157 had no way of knowing the spinach made them sick.

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This is very true. Most people don't associate feeling sick with something they ate more than 24 hours ago.

My only knowledge about how this sort of thing happens is anecdotal: About 4-5 years ago, a large well-known baking company in the area was cited for food borne illness. Several guests at various weddings in the city had become ill (including the bride and groom at one of the weddings) - some had gone to hospitals, which is how the city health dept got involved. They began to investigate and eventually narrowed it down to the wedding cakes. It turns out the mixers hadn't been thoroughly cleaned (I can't remember what caused the problem - it wasn't E. coli and am not even going to hazard a guess). But what happened next is that the city's health dept put out an alert to all the other health depts in the area (I am 30 miles north of the city and my health dept got a notice). My city's health agent calls me to tell me about it and even faxed me a copy of the alert notice. The notice didn't say who the company was, but everyone found out eventually. Because they were such a big company, they were able to recover and have done well since. But if it happened to a small business like mine, who's to say the outcome would be the same....