Whiny Diners

[Nathan]

"Quite a few people thought that markk wasn't the one with a sense of entitlement."

Funny how none of them were from New York.

That's why the thread was moved back to NY.

Too much ignorance both of the city and of top-level fine dining.

"Can you give some evidence of that?"

I don't need to. It's a given to anyone who lives here.

[markk]

No one -- not me, anyway -- is arguing that the restaurant's convenience is paramount.  Rather, it is that, often, special requests inconvenience other diners.  The reason one doesn't make an (unnecessary) fuss, or behave imperiously or arbitrarily, is that you may be making life worse for others who have as much desire and as much right to a good meal as you do,

←

I like the attitude you expressed earlier in the thread, and I agree with you here as well. To make a fuss in a restaurant and behave imperiously would be unacceptable behavior. In my own case, if I need a different table, I ask nicely. I'd have to say that unless all the tables are full, or unless the only empty ones are reserved, I'm always accommodated. And I think that being told "I'm sorry, that table is reserved and we have no others available" is a perfectly good reason to give me. But to tell me "I can't seat you there because that server has a few tables, and this server's turn is up next" isn't something a professinal restaurant would ever tell me - they'd deal with it transparently and please the customer.

And I wasn't talking about whiny customers actually (and I agree that those who make a stink and get imperious are obnoxious). I was talking about whiny hostesses. I was specifically referring to the attitude expressed repeatedly by one hostess:

I have never understood why that four top over there looks any more appealing than the one you've just been seated at in the same noisy dining room.  The lighting is the same, the table top accoutrements the same, the menu is the same, etc.  Why diners feel the need to be the alpha dog in the seating game I will never understand.  Just sit the f*%k down where you're told unless there's some truly compelling reason to move like a back injury and needing a padded booth to sit in. 

Not liking the color of the guy's shirt at the next table doesn't qualify.  Needing to assert your authority to impress your date isn't a good reason either...  think about what the real reason you're asking to be moved and see if it qualifies as compelling or not. 

Moving from one four seater table in the second row of tables to another in the second to last row of tables in NO different, yet folks insist on doing it, in many cases just to feel like they're in charge somehow. 

I think that's a bad attitude for anybody in the hospitality industry to have.

As I've said, I've never not been accommodated gladly and graciously, and upstream I told the story of a high-end restaurant packed to the gills who realized that they had seated me in a cramped table, and came to me and asked if I'd like to move when they saw a more comfortable table open up. That's my idea of professional service.

If I'm seated somewhere that's not comfortable to me, and the restaurant can't, or won't accommodate my request, or if I'm told that the hostess has to pass judgement on whether my request is "valid" or "frivolous" by her standards, I'll just get up and leave. I do that lots. If I'm not enjoying the restaurant's attitude before the meal even starts, it's a pretty good sign to me that I should go elsewhere, and I do that. I've also been in restaurants where the first course has gone so badly that I've asked for the check after it, and cut my losses and gone elsewhere.

I'm never ever rude, or loud, or nasty, or imperious, or disruptive. Those are qualities I don't like from people, and I don't exhibit them. And they're uncalled for. I'd much sooner leave than stay in an unpleasant situation, and that's how I deal with it.

As to why it's offensive to me to suggest that I have to give justification to a hostess when asking for another empty table, I'm always in the unpleasant situation when I travel by air that, because of the brace on my leg which sets off the metal detectors, I'm taken to a makeshift curtained-off 'room' in the middle of an airport and told to undress by the airport security people so they can search my clothes and pass metal detectors up and down my unclothed body. Sadly, though, I understand the reason for this.

But when I go to a restaurant, 99.8 percent of the time there's no problem with legroom at the table I'm given, and there's just no need to get into my medical condition when I make a reservation. And in the 0.2 % of the time when I have to look around to see if there's a more comfortable table and ask for it, I just don't feel that I have to give medical justification to the hostess (as I must to the airport screener) to get a different table. I ask nicely "may we please have that table there?", and if it's available, she should give it to me. As I say, it's offensive to me to suggest that the hostess will then decide if the nature of my medical condition outweighs her need to give one server an additional table versus another. These things should be transparent. And as you said earlier, you feel that the guy asking to move to impress his girlfriend has a vaild reaon (to you, at any rate). So what's with the imperious and psychoanalytic attitude of the hostess anyway? If you're/we're talking about Chili's, then sure, they've got to give out the tables in a specific rotation. But that's not the kind of restaurant I was talking about.

[Nathan]

""And I think that being told "I'm sorry, that table is reserved and we have no others available" is a perfectly good reason to give me. But to tell me "I can't seat you there because that server has a few tables, and this server's turn is up next" isn't something a professinal restaurant would ever tell me - they'd deal with it transparently and please the customer."

The wouldn't say that, they'd say that it was reserved.

"If I'm seated somewhere that's not comfortable to me, and the restaurant can't, or won't accommodate my request, or if I'm told that the hostess has to pass judgement on whether my request is "valid" or "frivolous" by her standards, I'll just get up and leave. I do that lots. If I'm not enjoying the restaurant's attitude before the meal even starts, it's a pretty good sign to me that I should go elsewhere, and I do that. I've also been in restaurants where the first course has gone so badly that I've asked for the check after it, and cut my losses and gone elsewhere."

"Lots"? Why is it that I virtually never have bad service?

"If you're/we're talking about Chili's, then sure, they've got to give out the tables in a specific rotation. But that's not the kind of restaurant I was talking about."

I'm unfamiliar with "Chili's" but I can assure you that even the highest end restaurant (a Per Se or Ducasse) has its seating chart planned out in advance of the evening.

[JohnL]

This seems real simple to me.

A restaurant is in the service business.

The customer is always right.

Customers should be considerate and polite.

When being shown to your table, the customer should make a fast assessment and either accept the table or refuse it. The restaurant should make every effort within reason to accommodate the customer.

If, having accepted the table and being seated the customer is unhappy with the table. (bad ventilation, noisy neighbors, anything that is making that customer uncomfortable). The customer should speak up and engage staff. I believe the customer at this point needs to explain why they are unhappy with the table and the restaurant staff should do whatever is reasonable to accommodate the customer.

bad behavior on the part of the restaurant--arrogance, rudeness etc is unacceptable in all instances.

bad behavior on the part of customers is also unacceptable but the restaurant staff must never sink to the level of the customer/offender. There are ways to diffuse most very situation short of having someone thrown out of an establishment.

In the valentine's Day case--I would have politely told the customer that we (the restaurant) will gladly note your preference and make every effort to give you the table but "we can not guarantee it."

If that is not good enough--then the customer should be told that he can speak to the manager (via phone if the manager is not present). The hostess should not engage the customer in a debate or try to continue explain why she can not guarantee the table but rather pass the customer up the chain as a positive course of action--"I can go as far as noting your preference, as policy I am not empowered to guarantee it--however, I will be happy to have our manager call you--of you can call him or her.

[philadining]

I've just recently come to understand the seating/scheduling thing a little better from an experience as a diner. Two of us walked-in to a pretty popular restaurant with no reservations on a Thursday night. From the front window, it looked like they had plenty of open seats. We inquired about a table, and they said they'd have something in about a half-hour, which was fine. We walked around a bit, and returned in almost exactly that time. Then, inside the restaurant, we waited probably another 45 minutes, until finally being seated at the bar.

All this time there were a few open tables, and I was a little mystified why they just wouldn't seat us. At a few different points there seemed to be grand tidal shifts, where half the room would empty, and there we sat, waiting for a 2-top.

But it did finally make sense as I paid close attention. Sure enough those ebbs would fill-in with a new tide of diners, and although there were always one or two tables open, they were different tables in different sections, and I could tell that those were reserved seats that a party was just a little late for, and/or that were intentionally being held for later to pace the servers and kitchen.

I had been getting a little irritated that we were waiting when there were 5 tables open, and that we ended up at the bar when we would have preferred a table. I'm always flexible as a walk-in, so I felt no entitlement to the best seat in the house, but it just looked as if there was plenty of room for us. But by the end of our dinner, watching the traffic flow in the room, it made sense, and I realized that there actually was a plan. It just so happens that I had a good view of the floor, and while I started out a little annoyed that they wouldn't give us one of the several open tables, so I really paid attention to who was sitting where when, and it eventually dawned on me that they weren't messing with my head, they really didn't have a table to give me.

The hostess was really quite gracious: when we figured out that she was looking for a spot at the bar for us, we asked for a table in the main room if possible. She said she was fully booked there, but that she'd definitely give us a table if someone was more than 15 minutes late for their reservation. Turns out everybody showed up, although at any given moment it looked like there were tables. I think it worked out about the way it should have, given that we didn't have reservations: we asked politely, she said she'd try, it didn't work, we didn't get upset about not having our ideal seats, and we had a perfectly enjoyable meal.

So I'd say, there's no harm in asking for a different table, in some cases it really won't make any difference, or closer to Markk's point, the restaurant often can change their plan to make the customer happy. But one shouldn't be surprised if the place can't grant that request, even if it appears that they should be able to, there may be larger patterns at work that aren't apparent to the layperson.

I think restaurants ought to do whatever they reasonably can to accommodate customer requests, and staff shouldn't get all bent out of shape if it's not what they'd planned. That's real life, it's part of the gig. But at the same time, customers need to understand that they can't always get exactly what they want. It would be great if I could dictate exactly where I sit, and who's around me, and what music is playing and what the ambient temperature and lighting is, but I also realize that I'm not in my house, and that the restaurant can't possibly do everything I'd like, because they're serving other people too.

We've all had that odd mantra that the customer is always right drilled into our heads, but of course he's not, and it's not vaguely practical to comply with every possible request. At the same time, hostesses' and managers' goals shouldn't be to execute their plan like clockwork, it should be to make the customers as happy as possible, so the plan's got to have room for flex.

The good news is that it's not heart surgery - if it all goes to hell, both sides of the podium have a couple of annoying hours and then try again next time...

[Nathan]

that was a High Quality Post

[K8memphis]

About the Valentine's Sweetheart: (and wouldn't you like to be his date?)

All I can say is, I don't think some of you have come into contact with a no holds barred asshole. (say that fast 3 times ) It is an art form to retain control of an exchange with those types of people. Phlox did nothing wrong. She needs the tools, gloves to know how to handle toxic waste. The above average to brilliant person would be as devastated as she was.

The problem with not liking your seat after you get it when you already know you have a personal space issue is that it usurps the hostess' job description. You're not giving her a chance to do her job. It's not her fault you've got a brace. Why make extra work for the hostess because the airlines have to be so intrusive. Why not make her job and your life easier by asking for extra leg room in the first place? I don't think it's very nice to spin the wheel to see if you get an accomodating spot and then make them scramble for you. Especially since you now for sure know it disrupts a busy restaurant and affects a lot of people. We should be thankful they have work too, no?

It's easier for you. "We need a table with extra leg room" You don't have to recite your health history.

Edited January 9, 2007 by K8memphis (log)

[markk]

Why not make her job and your life easier by asking for extra leg room in the first place?

As I explained very clearly, I don't need 'extra' legroom. Usually, 99.9% of the tables in restaurants are just fine. This discussion was about what happens if you happen to be taken to a table that's not to your liking (in my case, a particularly cramped table), and how much justification you need for asking for another one, and it was in response to the hostess who said that it was her call whether your reason was "valid" or "frivolous". Busboy already said that the reason of wanting another table to impress your girlfriend was "valid" in his opinion, while the hostess said it was "frivolous". What happens if she decides to gauge the legroom under the table herself and find my request "frivolous" by her standards? The fact that a diner asks nicely for another table should be all that's necessary. (Whether the request can be honored or not is another story.)

The hostess can apply her standards when she's the paying customer somewhere. She's clearly 'projecting' a lot of serious psychological issues (I quoted them above) in the customer requests, and that's why I don't want to subject my own needs to her standards. It's an inappropriate attitude, one that she should check at the door when she arrives for work.

[phlox]

It's easier for you. "We need a table with extra leg room" You don't have to recite your health history.

←

Exactly - it's not like I want gossip fodder, it's just that I can better solve your problem if I know what the problem is. Sometimes people just say, "I don't like this table" and make me guess WHY they don't like it. That's up there with my other favorite conversation:

"Hello, how are you this evening?"

"Mmm"

"Do you have a reservation?"

"Yes."

::silence::

People will seriously just stare at me as though they expect me to know who they are! It's hilarious, especially when they are not regulars. Most of the time I'm sure people aren't trying to be obnoxious, I just find it funny.

My other favorite type of guest is the pharmeceutical dinner guest. Pharma reps will organize these nice dinners for doctors and whatnot, but sometimes we have several large parties or even more than one pharmeceutical dinner on the same night. So then people will show up and just sort of stand there saying, 'um, I'm here for a...a thing....' They don't know what time it's supposed to start, who organized it, what company it's affiliated with. WTF? Sometimes all they know is the topic of the talk, so I'll have to sneak up to the room and look at the power point slides and be like, 'ok, that one's bipolar depression, and that one's...Christ, some long string of syllables I can't make sense of...'

Markk, I think your frustration stems from the fact that you're not an asshole! Your requests are usually accomodated because they're a)not insane and b)you're polite about it! You're not who we're complaining about.

[Nathan]

I think he is. but that's me.

the fact of the matter is, tables are a limited resources and not all diners who want to move can be accomodated.

so, yes, it is better for the restaurant staff in a crowded restaurant to have some idea of the relative validity of competing claims for special treatment.

the fact that he has had "lots" of service issues by his own admission should maybe prompt a self-appraisal in the mirror.

[K8memphis]

Why not make her job and your life easier by asking for extra leg room in the first place?

As I explained very clearly, I don't need 'extra' legroom. Usually, 99.9% of the tables in restaurants are just fine. This discussion was about what happens if you happen to be taken to a table that's not to your liking (in my case, a particularly cramped table), and how much justification you need for asking for another one, and it was in response to the hostess who said that it was her call whether your reason was "valid" or "frivolous". Busboy already said that the reason of wanting another table to impress your girlfriend was "valid" in his opinion, while the hostess said it was "frivolous". What happens if she decides to gauge the legroom under the table herself and find my request "frivolous" by her standards? The fact that a diner asks nicely for another table should be all that's necessary. (Whether the request can be honored or not is another story.)

The hostess can apply her standards when she's the paying customer somewhere. She's clearly 'projecting' a lot of serious psychological issues (I quoted them above) in the customer requests, and that's why I don't want to subject my own needs to her standards. It's an inappropriate attitude, one that she should check at the door when she arrives for work.

←

Lots of places have crampy tables. It's a no brainer, Dude. I'm sorry, it's just not that important. And it will never be an issue to an uninformed hostess that you're playing hide & seek with. No offense. All she's doing is getting you a table. The hostess is the gatekeeper. Go for carry-out.

The hostesses never said they determine the validity of the request, they determined the feasibility of the request. Then Katie ranted justifiably about idiots as documented by Phlox's encounter with her personal neighborhood terrorist. Katie's ranting here in this forum which is what you're doing and it's all ok.

Sorry you got a leg brace. I walk with a cane. But not everybody thanks God for pain in the ass sucktomers.

[markk]

The hostesses never said they determine the validity of the request

They most certainly did. Three such examples are quoted below

Then Katie ranted...

... in a tasteless manner most inappropriate for a hostess in the hospitality industry:

Not liking the color of the guy's shirt at the next table doesn't qualify.  Needing to assert your authority to impress your date isn't a good reason either...  think about what the real reason you're asking to be moved and see if it qualifies as compelling or not. 

Moving from one four seater table in the second row of tables to another in the second to last row of tables in NO different, yet folks insist on doing it, in many cases just to feel like they're in charge somehow. 

I have never understood why that four top over there looks any more appealing than the one you've just been seated at in the same noisy dining room.  The lighting is the same, the table top accoutrements the same, the menu is the same, etc.  Why diners feel the need to be the alpha dog in the seating game I will never understand.  Just sit the f*%k down where you're told

That may be appropriate talk for the teacher in charge of a school cafeteria. It has no place in a nice restaurant.

Edited January 9, 2007 by markk (log)

[Busboy]

This thread is getting personal, generally unpleasant, and repetitive. I'm sending it to time out until people calm down or consider another aspect of the whiny diner problem to debate.

--Charles