Chinatown Brasserie

[Sneakeater]

On a more personal (and perhaps inappropriate) note, Ed was a particular favorite writer of my late wife's.  She'd look forward to his publications, read them eagerly, and discuss them enthusiastically.  She'd often raise Ed as an authority.

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In the interest of (meaningless but necessary for an anal personality) accuracy, I guess I should have said "source" rather than writer, since now that I think about it, it was always articles where some writer was lucky enough to be escorted around by Ed S., leading to a bunch of useful tips and insights for the reader.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[ahr]

Is there some manner of dim-sum tasting available, or must one assemble a large party in order to sample widely in a single visit?

[sammy]

Went last night and had the Shrimp and Chinese Chive Pan Fried Dumplings, Steamed Seafood Dumplings, 4 Mushroom and Corn Dumplings and the Crabmeat and Pork Soup Dumplings. The 1st 3 were beautiful to look at and were perfectly cooked. The skins were very thin and held the ingredients well. One problem. All but the Soup Dumplings were lacking flavor and were desperate for salt. The Soup Dumplings were the only ones where we said, "Wow."

Also had the ribs which were clearly not reheated but also weren't packing much flavor. Everyone was looking for more sauce.

Then on to General Tso, Dry Sauteed String Beans and Vegetable Fried Rice. All fine but nothing that Grand Sichuan can't do with equal results.

[tommy]

Went last night and had the Shrimp and Chinese Chive Pan Fried Dumplings, Steamed Seafood Dumplings, 4 Mushroom and Corn Dumplings and the Crabmeat and Pork Soup Dumplings. The 1st 3 were beautiful to look at and were perfectly cooked. The skins were very thin and held the ingredients well. One problem. All but the Soup Dumplings were lacking flavor and were desperate for salt. The Soup Dumplings were the only ones where we said, "Wow."

i thought that the shrimp/chive dumplings and mushroom/corn dumplings were "wow"-worthy, and that the soup dumplings had a too rich and dark flavor profile for my taste, compared to the gold standard which, to mind my, is China 46 in NJ.

CB certainly evokes differences of opinion. one thing i can say without uncertainty is that the bartenders have always been excellent. standouts, actually. if anything the place should win accolades for not hiring tossers.

[larrylee]

One of the subtopics in this thread is CB's value proposition and if CB represents a step towards "fancier," if you will, Chinese cuisine. As it so happens, I was watching the Charlie Rose "food episode" referenced in the thread Charlie Rose: Robuchon, Reichl, Bill Buford, free episode link at google. About 30 minutes in, Charlie Rose asks Ruth Reichl why there aren't great Chinese restaurants in New York.

Her response was that the great Chinese restaurants tend to be where Chinese money is, which is not in New York. She also went on to say that the best Chinese restaurants in the US are in Las Vegas, and they are by invitation only!

She also said that "We're are about to get a really good Chinese restaurant," that Alan Yau of Hakkasan in London is going to open a restaurant in New York in the fall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Yau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkasan

http://travel.guardian.co.uk/restaurants/s...1003034,00.html

[rich]

One of the subtopics in this thread is CB's value proposition and if CB represents a step towards "fancier," if you will, Chinese cuisine. As it so happens, I was watching the Charlie Rose "food episode" referenced in the thread Charlie Rose: Robuchon, Reichl, Bill Buford, free episode link at google. About 30 minutes in, Charlie Rose asks Ruth Reichl why there aren't great Chinese restaurants in New York.

Her response was that the great Chinese restaurants tend to be where Chinese money is, which is not in New York. She also went on to say that the best Chinese restaurants in the US are in Las Vegas, and they are by invitation only!

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And I always thought she was very intelligent. Well, I guess that proves the adage that if you open your mouth too often, anything can come out.

[Sneakeater]

I dunno. It all sounds plausible to me.

[rich]

I dunno.  It all sounds plausible to me.

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That there's not "Chinese money" in New York? You can't be serious - not only is that remark totally ludicrous, it borders on offensive.

[larrylee]

That there's not "Chinese money" in New York? You can't be serious - not only is that remark totally ludicrous, it borders on offensive.

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Did you see the video clip? The relevant discussion in the video starts at minute 31:45. At any rate, you're missing the point. Her argument is that cuisine (not just "food") follows money, and a critical mass of affluent Chinese demanding Chinese cuisine would beget fine dining establishments to fille that need. Perhaps you disagree with her premise, but it doesn't sound implausible to me.

There are obviously many affluent Chinese-Americans in New York today, but are they eating Chinese food? If so, where? Please, enlighten all of us.

[rich]

That there's not "Chinese money" in New York? You can't be serious - not only is that remark totally ludicrous, it borders on offensive.

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Did you see the video clip? The relevant discussion in the video starts at minute 31:45. At any rate, you're missing the point. Her argument is that cuisine (not just "food") follows money, and a critical mass of affluent Chinese demanding Chinese cuisine would beget fine dining establishments to fille that need. Perhaps you disagree with her premise, but it doesn't sound implausible to me.

There are obviously many affluent Chinese-Americans in New York today, but are they eating Chinese food? If so, where? Please, enlighten all of us.

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No, didn't see and after reading that remark, I wouldn't waste my time.

Is this supposed to be a riddle?

Well, let me take a wild stab at an answer - at the same places other affluent people choose to eat.

I don't know why there are no great Chinese restaurants in New York, but I certainly know it has nothing to do with a lack of Chinese affluence. Anyone with a decent pair of eyes understands that. You don't need a PhD in economics.

Let's not get silly. It's a borderline offensive statement especially when followed up with the Las Vegas reference. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can read between the lines and understand she meant because there's a substantive number of Chinese gamblers - and that's offensive. What's next - all Italians are connected, all Scots are cheap, all Irish are drunks, all Poles are stupid.

Remember if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, odds are it's a duck.

I'm sure she didn't mean it the way it came out. Her words got in the way of her common sense. We all do it at times.

Ruth is an expert on food and food trends, however when it comes to the socio-economic realities of NYC, she's obviously out of her league. If she truly believes there's not "Chinese money" in NYC, then she's a card carrying NAC'r.

[Sneakeater]

If you look at the last post in Ruth Reichl's "Chinese Cuisine in New York" thread here on eG, she says several of the same things she's reported to have said on Charlie Rose.

On the subject of "Chinese money in New York," she makes it clear that what she's saying she thinks is lacking here is "a wealthy expatriate [Chinese] community - [as in] Silicon Valley in this country, Vancouver in Canada". So she's not talking about Chinese-Americans (as Rich says, obviously there are a lot of Chinese-Americans with money around here), but rather a wealthy Chinese expat community.

I know there's a wealthy Japanese expatriate community here -- and there are the upscale and downscale Japanese restaurants catering to that community that you would expect (go into Karuma or Yakitori Totto, to take two extremely obvious examples: those aren't Japanese-Americans, for the most part). I don't know about wealthy Chinese expatriates one way or another (I mean, I know a few, but not any community with the visibility of the Japanese expat community).

Edited August 31, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

I'm having a hard time understanding what's so controversial about Ruth's statement. Even if I didn't agree with her, I wouldn't interpret it as offensive in any way.

[rich]

I'm having a hard time understanding what's so controversial about Ruth's statement. Even if I didn't agree with her, I wouldn't interpret it as offensive in any way.

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Explain the Vegas reference.

[Fat Guy]

A lot of rich Chinese people go to Vegas and spend a lot of money. What's the problem?

[rich]

On the subject of "Chinese money in New York," she makes it clear that what she's saying she thinks is lacking here is "a wealthy expatriate [Chinese] community - [as in] Silicon Valley in this country, Vancouver in Canada".  So she's not talking about Chinese-Americans (as Rich says, obviously there are a lot of Chinese-Americans with money around here), but rather a wealthy Chinese expat community.

I know there's a wealthy Japanese expatriate community here -- and there are the upscale and downscale Japanese restaurants catering to that community that you would expect (go into Karuma or Yakitori Totto, to take two extremely obvious examples:  those aren't Japanese-Americans, for the most part).  I don't know about wealthy Chinese expatriates one way or another (I mean, I know a few, but not any community with the visibility of the Japanese expat community).

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There are not a lot of ex-pats in Vegas either.

Edited August 31, 2006 by rich (log)

[rich]

A lot of rich Chinese people go to Vegas and spend a lot of money. What's the problem?

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Read my above post.

C'mon Steve, you understand the gambling reference as well as I do.

[Fat Guy]

I understand there's a repulsive racial stereotype that says all Chinese people are gambling addicts, however the fact that rich Asians go to Vegas and blow lots of dough on fine dining is just a fact with no value judgment attached to it -- lots of rich people from lots of races, creeds and colors go to Vegas and fine-dining restaurants have sprung up to accommodate them.

[rich]

I understand there's a repulsive racial stereotype that says all Chinese people are gambling addicts, however the fact that rich Asians go to Vegas and blow lots of dough on fine dining is just a fact with no value judgment attached to it -- lots of rich people from lots of races, creeds and colors go to Vegas and fine-dining restaurants have sprung up to accommodate them.

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Very true, but the statement makes a point of singling out the Chinese. Don't forget it follows the line about great Chinese restaurants following the money and the best (in this country) are found in Vegas. The quote lends credibility to the stereotype.

I doubt very much she was suggesting Chinese people visit Vegas to see the Hoover Dam or Lake Mead.

[Fat Guy]

She singled out the Chinese because that was the subject under discussion, not because she hates them for being a race of compulsive gamblers! Anyway, I only read Playboy for the articles.

[rich]

She singled out the Chinese because that was the subject under discussion, not because she hates them for being a race of compulsive gamblers! Anyway, I only read Playboy for the articles.

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Yea, me too. I just hate it when I need to flip through all those picture pages to find where the article continues.

I don't think she hates them. I think the words came out before she thought. It happens to all of us.

[larrylee]

Rich,

I don't ask riddles. I've been genuinely curious lately as to why "top tier" Chinese restaurants in New York seem to be practically non-existent.

Let's assume that Reichl, because of her job, has been to these Vegas invitation-only Chinese restaurants, tasted the food, and knows they are superior to what's available in the rest of the country. Then her assertion that the best Chinese restaurants in America are in Vegas are is a mere statement of fact.

Now let's talk about the "affluent Chinese" statement, to which you take offense.

We can probably agree that demand, in and of itself, is a requirement to the existence of any restaurant. What kind of factors fuel demand for a particular cuisine? Two come to mind: a native population to feed, and some sort of cultural popularity.

So, for example, New York has a small Thai population, less than 8,000 in the entire state at the last census. I can't name a single Thai pop star, but it seems everyone except me likes pad thai. You've got a hook and a basis for a fleet of Thai restaurants to the tune of 144 listings in Menupages.

As another example, there are over 32,000 Japanese in New York state. In addition, Japanese culture has taken on a life of its own in the US and is thus fueling a demand for Japanese restaurants among the non-native population, ranging from the very humble (Otafuku) to high temples (Yasuda, Masa, Sugiyama), resulting in a staggering 415 listings in Menupages.

So why is it that New York, with a Chinese population exceeding 300,000 (and 440 restaurants in menupages), seems to generally have restaurants that range only in the low-to-middling range? Chinese pop culture doesn't have the same grip in the US as Japanese culture, and I'd be willing to bet that most people associate Chinese cuisine with only take-out fare. So who else but the Chinese would demand Chinese cuisine, and who could afford it but the affluent? Is that really such a far-fetched idea?

Perhaps Reichl have said "there is insufficient demand among the affluent Chinese in New York for Chinese cuisine," but would that have been any different? Actually, she did say something to the effect of "we [as New Yorkers] don't appreciate good Chinese cuisine." Viewed against the entire population of New York City, I guess it's true or we wouldn't even be discussing this.

She took a few of shortcuts, but I think your assertion that she's being culturally insensitive is overdrawn.

edit: Jeez, you turn your back and suddenly there are a bunch of new replies. The ex-pat community reference is intriguing and helps clarify her statements.

Edited August 31, 2006 by larrylee (log)

[rich]

Rich,

I don't ask riddles. I've been genuinely curious lately as to why "top tier" Chinese restaurants in New York seem to be practically non-existent.

Let's assume that Reichl, because of her job, has been to these Vegas invitation-only Chinese restaurants, tasted the food, and knows they are superior to what's available in the rest of the country. Then her assertion that the best Chinese restaurants in America are in Vegas are is a mere statement of fact.

Now let's talk about the "affluent Chinese" statement, to which you take offense.

We can probably agree that demand, in and of itself, is a requirement to the existence of any restaurant. What kind of factors fuel demand for a particular cuisine? Two come to mind: a native population to feed, and some sort of cultural popularity.

So, for example, New York has a small Thai population, less than 8,000 in the entire state at the last census. I can't name a single Thai pop star, but it seems  everyone except me likes pad thai. You've got a hook and a basis for a fleet of Thai restaurants to the tune of 144 listings in Menupages.

As another example, there are over 32,000 Japanese in New York state. In addition, Japanese culture has taken on a life of its own in the US and is thus fueling a demand for Japanese restaurants among the non-native population, ranging from the very humble (Otafuku) to high temples (Yasuda, Masa, Sugiyama), resulting in a staggering 415 listings in Menupages.

So why is it that New York, with a Chinese population exceeding 300,000 (and 440 restaurants in menupages), seems to generally have restaurants that range only in the low-to-middling range? Chinese pop culture doesn't have the same grip in the US as Japanese culture, and I'd be willing to bet that most people associate Chinese cuisine with only take-out fare. So who else but the Chinese would demand Chinese cuisine, and who could afford it but the affluent? Is that really such a far-fetched idea?

Perhaps Reichl have said "there is insufficient demand among the affluent Chinese in New York for Chinese cuisine," but would that have been any different? Actually, she did say something to the effect of "we [as New Yorkers] don't appreciate good Chinese cuisine." Viewed against the entire population of New York City, I guess it's true or we wouldn't even be discussing this.

She took a few of shortcuts, but I think your assertion that she's being culturally insensitive is overdrawn.

edit: Jeez, you turn your back and suddenly there are a bunch of new replies. The ex-pat community reference is intriguing and helps clarify her statements.

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I guess I need to clarify yet again.

I don't take offense to her "affluent Chinese" comment at all. She's just wrong.

I take offense to the underhanded inference about gambling and Chinese.

And if she did say something to the effect that New Yorkers don't appreciate good Chinese food or the affluent Chinese don't have a need for it, and that's why none exist, that would be fine. It would be her expert opinion as a food professional.

Her ex-pat comment as reported by SE makes even less sense. On one hand she says NYC doesn't have good Chinese restaurants because there's not Chinese money here. Then in the other thread, SE reports she said there's Chinese ex-pat money in Silicon and Vancouver.

So by her own theory, there should be good Chinese restaurants in those locales. But, no, she mentions Vegas as having the best. If that's not a reference to gambling and Chinese, then I'm really very stupid (something that's quite possible).

[Sneakeater]

Rich, she reported the expat communities in Vancouver and the Silicon Valley, not me. Vancouver is so famous for its Chinese restaurants that she probably found it unnecessary to say so. As for Silicon Valley, if you read her thread, it starts out with a discussion of how there are better (and different) Chinese restaurants in San Francisco than in New York. The Vegas thing was added as another example.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[rich]

Rich, she reported the expat communities in Vancouver and the Silicon Valley, not me.  Vancouver is so famous for its Chinese restaurants that she probably found it unnecessary to say so.  As for Silicon Valley, if you read her thread, it starts out with a discussion of how there are better (and different) Chinese restaurants in San Francisco than in New York.  The Vegas thing was added as another example.

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Yes I know she reported it originally. I said you were just reporting her words here (on this thread).

I understand she said the restaurants in SF were better than NYC, but then she says the ones in Vegas are the best in the country. Still seems like a disconnect based on her affluence theory since very few Chinese ex-pats live in Vegas. Her meaning is clear and I find it an offensive stereotype.

I've never been to Vancouver, but I'll take her word on that.

[Nathan]

I don't even understand this dispute.

I lived in Vancouver for several years. I can assure you that the wealth "expat Chinese" community in Vancouver is much larger than the one in NY.

I can also assure you that Vancouver has better Chinese restaurants (and I have heard the same about SF).

That's just a given. If you're unfamiliar with the famous Hong Kong wealth migration to Vancouver in the 80's I suggest that you google it.

It is precisely Hong Kong wealth that made Vancouver into a world-class city.

As for Vegas, I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

I find it more than possible, indeed probable, that there are more wealthy Chinese (as opposed to Chinese Americans) in Vegas on any given day than in NY...no one said anything about them living there (besides you).