Paris this fall

[PaulaJ]

We'll be in Paris this fall and it's not too early to think

about reservations. The few I just visited were less

than compelling. We haven't done AD but then, we

haven't even visited him in NY! We've done most of the

other major restaurants and although we have enjoyed

many, there is not one that I'm "dying" [a thread on the

NY site] to return to. We're looking for upscale treat types.

Any recommendations?

[lizziee]

Paula,

Could you be a little more specific? Are you interested in 2 and 3 star restaurants? Do you favor traditional cuisine or more inventive cuisine? Is cost a major factor? Is there a particular dish that you want to try?

[MartyL]

No doubt a search of the archives here and elsewhere on the web will yield many suggestions from far better-travelled people than this simple country lawyer. First, I'd suggest you cull the posts of some of the regulars here (Bux, Steve Plotnicki, Cabrales, and many others) for their recommendations and reviews. Also do a search of the archives for David Russell's terrific post about Paris Bistros. In any event, the following were some of the bright spots of my recent trip to Paris witg my wife:

Meals at the avant-garde Astrance and rustic La Regalade lived up to and surpassed our lofty expectations. Chez Georges offered a warm and lively vibe, hearty food, and nice wine list chock full of Dujac and Roumier. Willi's Wine Bar had well prepared and reasonably priced Mediterranean food, and nice list of Cote Roties---but what you should really order there is the Selosse Champagne Rose, which is great stuff. Dinner at Relais Louis XIII was another memorable meal, with top quality ingredients and very genial service. If you want truffles, heed Steve P.'s advice and get thee to Chez Dumonet for an omelet. For a great picnic, head to Barthelemy or Marie-Anne Cantin and pick up some perfectly ripe and delicious cheeses. Also, make sure to head to Laduree (the 16 Rue Royale location) for tea and pastries.

None of those places I mention above offers a "cost-is-no-object" type meal. If you are keeping Michelin-Score, Astrance has one star and Relais Louis XIII has two. Personally, I have found the three-stars to be much more enjoyable outside of Paris. I'd recommend in particular a day trip to Reims, where you can stay overnight and dine at Gerard Boyer's three-star Les Crayeres. If you go, don't miss the pre-meal champagne aperitif on the lawn.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"and nice wine list chock full of Dujac and Roumier."

Oh how I love a nice wine list chock full of Dujac and Roumier.

[lizziee]

  Personally, I have found the three-stars to be much more enjoyable outside of Paris.  

Marty,

I would disagree with your assessment that the 3 stars in Paris are not equal to the 3 stars in the provinces. In fact, I feel that Michelin tends to be more stringent in their demands of a 3 star experience in Paris. Some of the finest meals I have ever had have been at Pierre Gagnaire and L'Ambrosie. That is not to say that I don't find Troisgros, Boyer et al extraordinary, but to dismiss the 3 star Paris restaurant as less than hasn't been true for me.

I am definitely not excluding the countryside of France. I love going to the Provinces and of the 26 days we are in France, we spend 6 days in Paris and the rest "on the road."

[MartyL]

Lizziee, my point above about the three-stars in Paris was really just an expression of a personal preference and of course I acknowledge that yours is no less valid. I have had great meals at Gagnaire, Taillevant, Guy Savoy and Lucas Carton and I certainly can understand why many appreciate the sophistication and creativity of the food at some of these places and feel they are the best.

Personally, however, my favorite experiences have been at Boyer and Veyrat. It is hard to put my finger on why, but I detected a certain haughtiness and pretension in many of the Paris places, while at Boyer and Veyrat, the overwhelming vibe was one of hospitality and making every guest feel like a king or queen.

Chacun a son gout.

[lizziee]

Marty,

We have been extremely fortunate in that we have had only one really bad case of haughtiness in Paris which was at Le Divellec. Other than that, we have experienced incredible 3 star service which was not only correct, but warm and welcoming. However, I completely agree that to limit oneself to Paris is to miss what I love most about France - driving the countryside. Paula asked specifically about Paris and I was responding to that and from her mention of Ducasse, I felt she was asking about the 2 and 3 stars.

[robert brown]

Marty, welcome to the site. It's always nice to get a new guy who loves to eat as you do. I have had scores of meals in fine Paris restaurants; yet, the only two that stand out as "extra" are the first truly great meal I ever had in France, Chez Denis, and the one time I went to Robuchon. All the other great ones have been in the provinces, and I'm talking about those that would comprise my top 100. But all but a handful of these were before early 1990, the start of the recession that massacreed French luxury dining. The pendulum may well have shifted noticeably back to Paris. I'm only starting to get back into eating in Paris, however. We have had this discussion of Paris vs. the provinces before, but it's one always worth bringing back.

[Bux]

I agree with both of you. As Marty notes, it's a very subjective choice. I wouldn't disagree with Lizzie's contention that the standards for stars in Paris are at least as high as for those in the provinces and one might suggest far more stringent at the one star level and perhaps nearing parity at the three star level. All of that said, I have to agree that I personally enjoy dining--not just dining at three star restaurants--in the countryside more than in Paris. The emphasis is on "enjoy." It's not that the food is better and I'm not so sure I can even put my finger on the aspect that makes it better for me.

Many years ago, at a time when the expense of a dinner was an even greater concern it seemed as if my money went further at all levels in the provinces than it did in Paris. These days I'm not even so sure of that, but at the time it may have been a factor in why we tended to not spend any time in Paris. The other factor that should not be overlooked was that we once had friends and connections in Paris and then found ourselves with neither and Paris took on an element of sadness for lost times. Whatever the reason, after a few years absence we returned and I found myself just overjoyed to be walking on the streets I knew. I've found it hard to avoid Paris for long since and we've made new friends in the city whose company we enjoy as well.

There are a million other things to do in Paris besides have a three star meal, while once you've bought a set of steak knives, there's really no reason to be in Laguioule except to dine at Bras. Paris is also a city I want to call a second home and dining in destination restaurants reminds me I'm a visitor. Dining in a little spot around the corner from a friend's house allows me to feel like a local just a bit. Because, at heart, I'd really like to be a Parisian and have no desire to live in most provincial towns, I find I have different reasons to chose restaurants in Paris. Nevertheless there are two overwhelming reasons to enjoy a few good two and three star meals in any week I'm in Paris. Some to the world's best chefs are in Paris and the food is incredible and special in the restaurants I'd choose and how could I hold my place in any gastronomic discussion without some familiarity of the best of Paris.

I've not really felt haughtiness at Parisian places, at least not in general, although there is a certain stiff formality at times that I tend to assoiciate with dining in the city as opposed to the country. I kind of welcome it just because I like places to have a different feel. It's part of the appeal of traveling. If the atmosphere of Paris was the same as that of the countryside, there'd be no reason to go there and if New York was the same as Paris, I'd have less reason to leave NY.

As for Marty's first post in this thread, my momma told me never to trust a simple country lawyer, especially one who knows his way around a wine list. Marty made another good point, for those who haven't noticed, the search feature on this site is now working quite superbly and it's a good way to find what's been said already. Those members who are young enough to remember what they've said before are less likely to make the same suggestion twice even if it's still valid.

[MartyL]

Thanks for the warm welcome, Robert. I've been lurking around here for a long time, having previously been a devoted reader of Steven Shaw's work on the Fat-Guy site. I've enjoyed this site a great deal and the archived posts here were enormously helpful to me in planning my last trip to Paris and Provence.

As for the whole Paris vs. the countryside thing, it is of course hard to make generalizations. There are certainly some places in the provinces that seem tired, stale and touristy. Georges Blanc was one example of this phenomena that I experienced first hand, and I've read about many others.

The next *** I'd like to try is Troisgros, but I think I'm in a phase where I get more excited about places that are just a wee bit less hoity toity. I also like to find places where I can afford to order something delicious from the wine list.

And Steve, I am still dreaming about Chez Georges and that wine list. If there were a place like that in my neighborhood, I would probably eat there 3 or 4 times a week.

[cabrales]

MartyL -- Troisgros is excellent, as to wine list as well as cuisine. Wine pricing might be slightly higher of a mark-up than Georges Blanc (which has very reasonably priced wine for a three-star), but selection at Troisgros is clearly superior. Also, wine pricing at Troisgros can be said to be no higher than average for a three-star outside of Paris. My experience is that neither the staff nor the chef is in the least hoity-toity.

Steve P and I have each had H Jayer Echezeux and other great wine at Troisgros. In my assessment, good wine is not helpful without at least very good cuisine (the latter is lacking at Blanc).

[MartyL]

Also, wine pricing at Troisgros can be said to be no higher than average for a three-star outside of Paris.

Gee, Cabrales, have you ever considered writing ad copy?

Anyway, H. Jayer Echezeaux at Troisgros sure sounds better than a sharp stick in the eye.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"I am still dreaming about Chez Georges and that wine list."

Marty - If you behave, I'll invite you the Roumier Bonnes Mares vertical we are organizing.

As to the in Paris/outside of Paris controversy that is going on here, I think in general the food outside of Paris is better. Not that there are better chefs in the provinces or anything. I just think that the atmosphere in the countryside is more relaxed and it makes the entire experience more enjoyable, including probably a more easygoing experience for the chef. And when in Paris, so many of the customers are there on business functions etc. You don't get anywhere as much of that in Roanne or Annecy. I also think that the chefs in the provinces have access to better and fresher local ingredients than the Parisian chefs have. I point to the truffle menu dinner that I had in February at Guy Savoy where the quality of the truffles he served (although they weren't poor,) were inferior to the ones we were served at one star restaurants in Provence in the days leading up to that meal.

Of course there are general exceptions to these rules. Robert B. raised Robuchon and I concur as to the special nature of his cooking. And there is Arpege and Allain Passard's minimalist cooking which is so ingredient intensive. But when I was at Troisgros last May, the pork he served me came from an artisinal producer in the Loire. And while I won't swear that chefs in Paris do not have access to the same pork, my gut told me they didn't and it was more of a local thing.

[jaybee]

Paula, For the last four or five years we have eaten almost exclusively at bistros in Paris. The range and variety of regional foods is so great and the experiences so rich and textured that we have had little motivation to go more than seldom to a three star place. Of course, we were helping my brother-in law and sister-in-law research bistros for their guide book, but I would find it hard to go on a three star diet now. There are one or two new ones in Paris I haven't tried that tempt me, but if given a choice, I would head back to Boyer's place or Troigros. I suggest you buy a couple of good guide books, do a lot of research, make lists and plot your meals carefully. If you'd like some of our favorite bistros, send me a PM and I'll discuss them with you. By the way, you mentioned "upscale treats"--were you referring to spending $200-300 per person or $150-300 per coouple per meal? You can do the latter at bistros, the former at 3 star places.

[lizziee]

In my assessment, good wine is not helpful without at least very good cuisine (the latter is lacking at Blanc).  

Cabrales,

Georges Blanc has changed greatly, particularly last year. Frederic, his son, is now in the kitchen and the menu, even the cover, has been updated. We had two excellent meals last year that were far from stodgy. I might be a minority of one about Georges Blanc, but hate to see him dismissed since his son has taken over.

On the first night our menu, called "De Mer et D'Eau Douce" was as follows.

Daurade Legerement Fumee, Beignet d'Oignon Mauve et Caviar - this was an extraordinary dish of lightly smoked, thinly sliced Daurade that was topped by a yolk quenelle (chopped yolk with a light touch of creme fraiche and chives) with a spoonful of caviar and an onion beignet.

Soupe Sauvage "Velours Vert" aux Grenouilles et Marriage d'Herbes - this was a green soup, not carrot as velours suggest with slivers of frog leg meat. I honestly do not know what the main ingredient of the soup was, just that it was green.

Des filet de Rouget, des Champignons et une royale d'oseille dans une nage au vin jaune- the crispy rouget was "swimming" in the vin jaune, the amber-yellow wine from the Jura area -

Meli Melo de Homard Eclate et Legumes Tendres a l'Huile Parfumee- a "hodge-podge" of lobster-

Aile de Pigeon Roti Servie dans in Bouillon Corse, Tartine de Halicot de Cuisse, Gnocchi d'Aubergines et Pata Negra - roasted pigeon served in strong bouillon with the thigh of the pigeon minced and served on toast

The next night, we had La Poularde de Bresse Cuite en Croute de Gros Sel "Selon Alexandre" for our main course. This must be ordered at least 24 hours in advance. It is not the dish that Georges Blanc is famous for and which everyone seems to order in the dining room - the Poulet de Bresse comme au G7. The latter dish is not a favorite of mine and does in fact "taste tired." The chicken we had is cooked in a pastry shell covered with salt (the pastry is not eaten). It is served in two courses - the first the Bresse chicken breast with the leg attached was absolutely perfect, the essence of chicken with the jus being the sauce. The second course is the cracklings and other remaining parts of the chicken with a salad. I am definitely not describing this very accurately and I know Cabrales would probably describe this perfectly.

Steve P - We are basically in agreement about my preferring the provinces over Paris. As I noted above, the majority of our France trip is not spent in Paris. As for wine, I'll drink with Steve and Marty anytime.

[Beachfan]

Contrary to the majority view of the board, I love lunches at three stars. Perhaps it's because I'm more relaxed because of the pricing. But my lunch at Le Grand Vefour was one of my best meals ever. Also Lucas Carton is a lovely lunch and room.

On the nights that the Louvre and Musee d'Orsay are open late, we have a fancy long lunch in the middle of the day, maybe even a nap (how luxurious!). Then we spend the evening at the museum, and in summer, some strolling after that. The Louvre is actually more comfortable to see in the evening because of the crowds (the d'Orsay seems to be just as crowded at night).