Talking crumb

[doronin]

My first attempts to make a white bread (I used to use only whole grain flours) ended up as this:

Yes, its taste was good, a little sweet, wheaty flavour.

The shape is far from intended, as dough managed to stick to the peel while loading it to the oven, so I was have to lift it up by hands, inevitably damaging the shape (and yes, the peel was dusted with semolina).

The dough was very wet, about 75%, it was very difficult to handle.

My concern is about the crumb - while it's not bad at all, I'd be looking for bigger holes. My next attempt (no picture) with no shaping issues was higher, but with about the same density of crumb.

I remembered Dan Lepard's advise to start shaping just after a small bubbles become visible on a cut, i.e. not waiting while the volume will double, so I did. But it seems that this way I don't let the dough to develop those big holes... Or they're expected to develop during proofing?

Am I right that big holes mean lo-ong rise or lo-ong proof time?

Edited October 20, 2005 by doronin (log)

[culinary bear]

How long did you knead the dough for, how long did you let it rise before shaping, and how long a final rise?

[boulak]

How long did you knead the dough for, how long did you let it rise before shaping, and how long a final rise?

←

More importanly. what is the hydration?

Edited October 20, 2005 by boulak (log)

[doronin]

Hydration was about 75%, and the times were about 2 hours total of bulk fermentation (with two "turns" during that time); proofing was few hours in the fridge where time doesn't that matter; baked directly from the fridge.

[culinary bear]

More importanly. what is the hydration?

If you read the poster's original words, they clearly state that the hydration was 75%. You did read the poster's original words, didn't you?

doronin - That seems like a fairly resonable set of times. I tend to find that I get larger bubbles when the gluten structure is a little weaker than a normal dough and the air bubbles can merge (so don't overwork the dough), and also when the dough is a little overproved, if anything. Having a moist environment during baking also allows full ovenspring, which is also something that I find can be deadened a little by cooking bread straight from the fridge.

I also find a relationship between the length of time a dough has sat in bulk and its 'holiness' - maybe prove for a longer time with a lower initial yeast content?

Edited October 20, 2005 by culinary bear (log)

[doronin]

I tend to find that I get larger bubbles when the gluten structure is a little weaker than a normal dough and the air bubbles can merge (so don't overwork the dough)

That makes sense... I used relatively stiff "biga", and after autolysis of the remained flour had to mix them together well enough, which took considerable time, so I might overwork the dough a little.

It's interesting how to do a short mix after autolysis:

- add a yeast and mix a little

- add salt and mix a little

- during these stages I have to add biga in chunks

All this has to be mixed thoroughly, even without kneading in mind it'll be too long, and it seems that the dough will be overworked anyways...

[culinary bear]

Try using a slacker starter, so that you needn't develop the gluten quite so much when you mix it in...

[JayBassin]

I agree with CulinaryBear: instead of a stiff biga, try a wet poolish (100% hydration for the poolish) and use a softer flour (or a mix of flours to get the protein down). Otherwise, sounds good.

ps--I usually do the final rise on a strip of parchment paper that goes into the oven on preheated quarry tiles, just to avoid the risk of sticking to the peel. I also don't like cleaning out all the accumulated burnt bits of semolina from the oven floor.

Edited October 23, 2005 by JayBassin (log)

[culinary bear]

I do the final rise on a Silpat, for much the same reasons. Useful for baking at higher temps as I find greaseproof/baking paper can burn.

Edited October 24, 2005 by culinary bear (log)

[doronin]

Actually, I did the final rise in a banneton in a fridge, and turned it onto the peel for a minute just to slash. But the dough was very wet, and after fridge there was some accoomulated humidity, so I perhaps should have put a very generous layer of semolina to make it slip. In fact, next time I just did it with parchment paper with no problems.

I use Silpat as non-stick surface for working with the dough (it sticks badly anyways), but don't bake on it as it acts as thermoinsulator, which is not very good for the bottom crust. There is another product similar to Silpat, but with tiny holes in it to pass the heat; this would be great, but I never seen them available.

Having a moist environment during baking also allows full ovenspring, which is also something that I find can be deadened a little by cooking bread straight from the fridge.

I think you can either avoid retarding at all, or bake from the fridge, otherwise by the time the dough tempereture will come to a room temperature, dough will be overproved badly, so there will be no ovenspring at all.

Edited October 26, 2005 by doronin (log)