A martini story

[stevea]

I couldn't tell you what kind of liquor it was. Whatever the bar brand was. That was another area I wasn't about to venture into.

[Alchemist]

Vermouth is delicate.  It should be bought in the smallest bottles possible, and kept in the fridge unless you are in the process of making a cocktail. 

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See, to me these are all signs of a poor-quality vermouth. A good vermouth is not only a tasty vermouth, but a durable vermouth. Quick international shipping and constant refrigeration weren't constants back during vermouth's 19th century heyday, afterall. Good vermouth should be fortified to a proper strength, and the wine and botanicals should be processed in such a way that there is no danger from oxidation or contact with light. Hell, if I wanted a "delicate" vermouth, I'd buy a bottle of ordinary wine and stick the herbs in myself.

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In cocktails just like food fresh is better(unless you're talking Kim Chee) And a freshly opened bottle of vermouth tastes better than one that has been opened a month, and has been sitting on a hot back bar or on a shelf above your stove. Wine has a love hate relationship with oxygen.

[mbanu]

In cocktails just like food fresh is better(unless you're talking Kim Chee)  And a freshly opened bottle of vermouth tastes better than one that has been opened a month, and has been sitting on a hot back bar or on a shelf above your stove.  Wine has a love hate relationship with oxygen.

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Vermouth (in theory anyhow) is a fortified wine. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect, but if the processes that a wine undergoes to transform it from an ordinary wine into a fortified wine (controlled oxidation, adding spirits, etc.) don't increase the wine's shelf life, what was the point in doing anything to it at all?

It doesn't seem to be a problem with sherry, madiera, or even Lillet, so why should exceptions be made for vermouth?

Edited September 24, 2005 by mbanu (log)

[slkinsey]

mbanu, I think fortification does extend the shelf life of a vermouth compared to regular wine. But that doesn't mean that the shelf life is extended indefinitely. I also don't think it's accurate to call the vermouth process one of controlled oxidation, any more so than this is part of the normal winemaking process. Noilly Prat ages its wines for a year in oak casks outside in the open air with the snow, rain, summer sun, etc. That's kind of unusual. But I wouldn't characterize this as controlled oxidation like I would, say, making sherry.

I'm not sure that I agree 100% with Alchemist that vermouth is inherently delicate, although it is delicate, I suppose, compared to bourbon. I've kept bottles of very high quality vermouth (Vya) sealed with "Wine Saver" corks in my refrigerator for months without any detectable drop in quality compared to a fresh bottle. But part of Alchemist's point (I think) is that this is not the way vermouth is stored in a professional setting -- it's just not practical. The best vermouth in the world isn't going to keep very well unrefrigerated and open to the air with a speed pourer stuck in it. Any bottle of booze maintained in this condition for a long period of time will eventually decline -- but vermouth will decline a lot faster than vodka.

[Alchemist]

mbanu, I think fortification does extend the shelf life of a vermouth compared to regular wine.  But that doesn't mean that the shelf life is extended indefinitely.  I also don't think it's accurate to call the vermouth process one of controlled oxidation, any more so than this is part of the normal winemaking process.  Noilly Prat ages its wines for a year in oak casks outside in the open air with the snow, rain, summer sun, etc.  That's kind of unusual.  But I wouldn't characterize this as controlled oxidation like I would, say, making sherry.

I'm not sure that I agree 100% with Alchemist that vermouth is inherently delicate, although it is delicate, I suppose, compared to bourbon.  I've kept bottles of very high quality vermouth (Vya) sealed with "Wine Saver" corks in my refrigerator for months without any detectable drop in quality compared to a fresh bottle.  But part of Alchemist's point (I think) is that this is not the way vermouth is stored in a professional setting -- it's just not practical.  The best vermouth in the world isn't going to keep very well unrefrigerated and open to the air with a speed pourer stuck in it.  Any bottle of booze maintained in this condition for a long period of time will eventually decline -- but vermouth will decline a lot faster than vodka.

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Last night i opened a fresh bottle of sweet vermouth Which had been kept in the fridge since it's purchase. I tasted it next to a bottle that had been opened a week earlier, and there is a difference. i can only describe it as pop or edge but a fresh bottle smells like fresh mushroom pizza, and herbs and old vermouth dosn't have the same depth.

[gethin]

In fact in most pubs even asking for a Gin will leave them wondering why you have bought your wife a drink but you aren't having one....

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Not in my pub! One of the first customers I served just after buying it ordered "A gay bar and a pint of Henry" . The gay bar turned out to be the local name for a Gin and Tonic , (and Henry to be Orange Juice with lemonade).

We don't sell a lot of gay bars.

i've got a few of them drinking Dark and Stormies though and our cleaner always has a sniff of my pre sunday lunch Negroni , which she thinks "smells lovely". She hasn't been brave enough to taste it yet.

Don't think we've ever been asked for a martini, though we do sell a fair few martini (vermouth) with lemonade.

I think that that's probably be what you'd get if you asked any of the bar staff for a martini. (if it was me behind the bar you'd probably get a startled look, a hug and then a 1:1 martini made with Brecon gin)

Gethin

[Rob Simmon]

Just out of curiosity ... why are you all drinking cocktails in England? I think it's better to stick with the local specialty--cask conditioned ale. (Although that belongs in another forum!)

[DrinkBoy]

Just out of curiosity ... why are you all drinking cocktails in England?

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Because when you find the right spot to have them, they are FABULOUS!

There is a vibrant and growing cocktail culture in London. On a recent trip I was treated to cocktails at a variety of London cocktail venues, from "Trailer Happiness", to Salvatore Calabrese's new joint at "Fifty", and a wide variety of places between them. While not all of the drinks were great, they were all memorable in one way or another, and I was very impressed with where the London scene was going.

Yes, the beer (aka "Real Ale") there is great, but don't pass up some of the great cocktails that you might also discover if you happen to be in the right spot!

[BTR]

Just out of curiosity ... why are you all drinking cocktails in England? I think it's better to stick with the local specialty--cask conditioned ale. (Although that belongs in another forum!)

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By this logic, if anyone in England wanted a cocktail, he'd have to leave the country. Kind of an expensive proposition.

[suzilightning]

I'm being talked into trying a gin martini.  Vodka martinis have always been my defaut, and yes, we use very little vermouth, but we do use some in them.  So Sam, assuming I have Bombay Sapphire and noilly prat, would that be a 1:1 ratio or different?

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noooooooooooo

4:1 please

and hendricks now( i have outgrown bombay sapphire)

[M.X.Hassett]

noooooooooooo

4:1 please

and hendricks now( i have outgrown bombay sapphire)

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I think the ratio of 1:1 was talking about the "Fitty - Fitty" cocktail at Pegu which is closer to the original martini ratio. Many prefer this to the wash glass with vermouth dump and add GIN or vodka I would try both wash gin/4:1/1:1, I think the "dry" martini is EVIL, but to each his own, W. Churchill liked his vermouth 16:1 of the ratio.

Edited October 8, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)

[slkinsey]

A ratio of 2:1 or 1:1 is what one is likely to find in recipe books dating from the glory days of the Martini, and I have come around to thinking that it is best. The Martinis people were throwing back in the old Thin Man movies and the like would have been 1:1 or 2:1 Martinis at around three ounces (in his opening scene Nick Charles throws one down in one sip, which gives you an idea of the size). 1:1 with a drop of orange bitters is the way Audrey Saunders is making them at Pegu Club.

Try 1.5 ounces each of Tanqueray or Boodles with 1.5 ounces of Noilly Prat, a drop of orange bitters and a lemon twist. I think it might change the way you think about a Martini.

[M.X.Hassett]

Is there not a "Thin Man" where Astor gets his paws on one of Nicks cocktails?

Edit: Spelling

Edited October 8, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)

[M.X.Hassett]

Shit I can not find my copy but "Shcotts(spl) Food and Drink Miscelanea" has a great list of people's favorite martini ratios

[Alchemist]

A ratio of 2:1 or 1:1 is what one is likely to find in recipe books dating from the glory days of the Martini, and I have come around to thinking that it is best.  The Martinis people were throwing back in the old Thin Man movies and the like would have been 1:1 or 2:1 Martinis at around three ounces (in his opening scene Nick Charles throws one down in one sip, which gives you an idea of the size).  1:1 with a drop of orange bitters is the way Audrey Saunders is making them at Pegu Club.

Try 1.5 ounces each of Tanqueray or Boodles with 1.5 ounces of Noilly Prat, a drop of orange bitters and a lemon twist.  I think it might change the way you think about a Martini.

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Three ounces of liquor, don't forget about water content. which should be about 20%of total content.