Decanting

[lizziee]

Steve,

You were going to post the why's of decanting white wine. In the current issue of Food Arts, Roger Dagorn, sommelier at Chanterelle, is quoted as saying that "he particularly likes Savennieres from Anjou that he pours by the glass.... Sometimes, 'I'll decant it and treat it like a red wine. It has lots of nuance and character, and decanting it can bring out those qualities.'"

Recently, we had dinner at Aqua in San Francisco and had a white Burgundy that the sommelier also felt needed to be decanted.

What are your thoughts?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hey Roger Degorn is a lovely man.

I have found that older white wines from Burgundy and Alsace often need decanting. I don't know why a fully mature wine that has been in bottle for 12-17 years would need it, but I often find they need a good 30 minutes in decanter to open.

And not all growers are the same. Up until about a year ago, my Raveneaus from 1989 and 1990 needed mearly an hour in decanter. And Jadot Chevalier Montrachet Demoiselles always needs a decant.

Young white wines do not need decanting. As for Savennierres, I was at La Feniere this past February and I wanted to order a 1985 Coulee de Serrant and the sommelier insisted it needed at least 2 hours in decanter and he wouldn't serve it. And some Alsatians, especially Clos St. Hune love the decanter.

[lizziee]

Thanks, Steve

[oraklet]

i don't have much experience with very fine wine. i do feel, though, that a lot of expert advice (hugh johnson, parker...) is a bit out of tune with my taste. it seems that they will drink a fine wine younger than i would. can it be that not only do they react to that which actually is there to taste, but also to the ultimate potential of the wine?  bottles opened on that kind of advice have often proven to be a bit "raw", or unfinished. this may, perhaps, be the case with your white wines, too.

generally i wouldn't want a wine that needs decanting, (unless it is vintage port or a very, very, very old red wine), as the need to decant, i think, is really a sign of weakness in the wine.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Oraklet - Here is a general primer about white Burgundy.

For top vintages like 1989, 1990, 1992, 1995, 1996 and 1999

Grand Crus need 10-15 years to reach maturity. Premier Crus need 7-12 years to reach maturity. The better producers will make wines that mature later in time. But even when wines are fully mature, decanting is preferrable as quite often the wines need air to release the aromatics.  For lesser vintages, take 5 years off of each type of bottling.

I don't think you should be adverse to decanting. I have decanted wines overnight in order for them to open up, i.e. bring out the aromatics. You would be amazed at the results and you should try it sometime.

[oraklet]

untill this day, i've felt quite sure that decanting was for the poor stuff - or for a bottle that shouldn't have left the cellar yet. in both cases to smoothen out the tannin.

how can one help losing a good deal of the finer aromas in a good wine if it is decanted. and one whole day? i dare not think what might have happened to that cheval blanc '70, best i ever had. at one time we opened one beerenauslese too much. recorked it and tried it again next day. the disappointment!

[cabrales]

Steve P -- When you have a chance: What wines did you decant overnight, and do you use the same types of decanters for red and white wine? Also, when you are decanting white wine, do you allow the decanter to sit in an ice bucket?  

[Steve Plotnicki]

Oraklet - Well mature wine won't last 24 hours in a decanter. It doesn't need that much air to allow the aromatics out. But a 1990 Cheval Blanc could easily be decanted for 48 hours and still not be ready to drink! It is particluar to the bottle. That is why whenever I go somewhere and they present me with the wine, 95% of the time I ask them to let me taste the wine before I decide whether to decant or not.

[cabrales]

Steve -- When you have a chance, could you consider walking through the steps involved in decanting, including the choice of a decanter (size, materials included, shape, etc.)?   Also see my post almost concurrent with yours above.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cabrales - The only wines one would decant overnight are wines that are too young for current consumption. For example, if you were to open a 1989 Hermitage La Chapelle, that would need a good 6-8 hours in decanter, and could benefit from even more time in the decanter. Prior to taking trips to Euirope to taste, I used to not get to taste wines until they were released in shops. Since in many instances they were too tannic to taste young, I used to open them and leave them on my kitchen counter over night. Some of them took 3-4 days to fully open.

My favorite decanting story had to do with bringing a certain California wine to dinner that was a favorite of a friend of mine. I knew if we opened the wine at the restaurant it could be undrinkable, so I opened it right before lunch, decanted it, and let it sit there in my office while I went out to lunch. I came back about 90 minutes later and when I got to my office, the aroma from the wine filled the entire room. You were able to smell it almost 30 feet away. Prior to going to dinner I poured it back in the bottle, chilled it down to cellar temperature. When the waiter poured it, is was so aromatic and fragrant that my friend took one whiff of the wine and had a minor convulsion. None of this would have happened if we opened the wine at the restaurant.

As for decanter size, I don't think it matters much. If you have a wide decanter, more of the wine gets air. But I think that it gets plenty of air while it's being poured into the decanter. Length of time is a bigger issue than size of decanter in my book.

[Jinmyo]

But Steve, if the aroma was filling the room, weren't many of the flavours lost?

As with cooking, the delicious aromas often indicate one is losing flavour. (Of course the sensation of flavour is comprised mainly of aromas, but I think you see the gist, the nub, the point, if you will, of my above question).

[Winot]

when I got to my office, the aroma from the wine filled the entire room. You were able to smell it almost 30 feet away.

Boy you've got a large office!

[Liza]

Mickey at Tribeca Wine Merchants on Chambers St. told me that he decants his Embruix 1999 Priorat for the full 24 hours. It does seem like a long time, doesn't it? Well, I've got two bottles, one which I'll most likely ruin by just opening and drinking. After that, lesson learned, I'll decant the other. But big, stupid question from someone who has never decanted: I'm thinking that the vessel into which one decants matters much - wide and shallow? Narrow and vertical? What what?

[Jinmyo]

Steve, I was serious. Does a strong fragrance not also mean that much of the flavour is in the air?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jin - No. Wine has a tremendous concentration of fruit that holds up through aeration. But sometimes you get a mature bottle that has nearly lost its fruit. In those instances, aeration can kill whatever fruit is left so it's best to pour directly from the bottle.

Winot - I wish I still had that office but I don't. Itb was a wraparound office on the corner of Broadway and Astor Place in Manhattan. It also let me check the new releases at Astor Wines & Spirits every day.

Liza - Do you mean Tribecca Wines or Chambers Street Wine Merchant. Haven't been to the former but the latter is the greatest.

[Jinmyo]

Steve, thanks.

[capnpeff]

I just found an overlooked bottle of 1993 Chassagne Montrachet.  Is there any hope for this bottle?  Would it profit from decanting?  I would hate to see it go to waste, but how do I make the best of it? :confused:

[Wilfrid]

I was advised by my cellarman that the young single vineyard Riesling I brought to the Union Pacific dinner would benefit from decanting.  However, I felt in my bones that Plotnicki would contradict me outright, so I didn't raise the subject.  

Any views?

[tommy]

I was advised by my cellarman that the young single vineyard Riesling I brought to the Union Pacific dinner would benefit from decanting.  However, I felt in my bones that Plotnicki would contradict me outright, so I didn't raise the subject.  

Any views?

i thought it was kinda a crappy choice, considering the company and the other wines that were offered.

[Wilfrid]

Here he comes, Mr Huevos Rancheros with his negative attitude.  We were doing fine without you this morning, Tom.

[tommy]

Here he comes, Mr Huevos Rancheros with his negative attitude.  We were doing fine without you this morning, Tom.

it's, like, "afternoon" here on planet nottacheapbastard.

but seriously, what benefit?  i'm veddy curious.

[Wilfrid]

And you have just got out of bed, right?

[cabrales]

Wilfrid -- Thank-you; I and others enjoyed the Riesling and the other bottles.    Our dining party was happy that the wine we collectively brought matched the dishes which we took in, but of which we were unaware when choosing the BYO wine, well.

[tommy]

And you have just got out of bed, right?

haven't gone yet.

jeesh, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed today!

[Wilfrid]

A thick skin helps.  Ya know, you can take it but you sure can't dish it out.

er

Of course, of course.