Babies and Barrooms

[plattetude]

General question from a very specific concern: What's the etiquette and propriety concerning bringing wee ones (pre-toddler age) to a fine drinking establishment? I'd love opinions from both sides of the stick.

Obviously, an ill-behaved child will not be well-received anywhere, but if the child is relatively quiet and under full supervision, does the mere presence of, say, a stroller in a bar rankle both barkeeps and bar patrons?

I ask specifically because Pegu Club in NY has seemed to set up a kind of "adults only" vibe by having hours starting at 5pm. Audrey had mentioned way back in an earlier topic about having a kind of "new parents gathering" around Christmas (yes please!) where parents with babies would have the run of the place, which indicated that otherwise, perhaps kids aren't quite appropriate here. And I fully respect and understand that point of view, of course. Nevertheless, my wife and I are hoping to visit Pegu Clubu this weekend with some friends, and are currently thinking to have our 7-month-old in tow. We'd hardly want to be tossed out on our ear, nor would we want to assume too much graciousness be granted us, grudgingly or otherwise.

Paternally,

Christopher

[Megan Blocker]

Let me preface this by saying that I really do love children.

However, I do not think that their presence is at all appropriate at a place like Pegu. It is a bar - not a restaurant, but really a cocktail joint. I can see the argument for taking (well-behaved ) little ones to fancy (or casual) restaurants: they are learning how to comport themselves, appreciate fine food, and spend some quieter time with mom and dad.

But I cannot see a similar upside to bringing them into a bar, upscale or no. If we're talking about a neighborhood pub that is family-friendly and is equally a restaurant, that's one thing. But to bring children into a place where the true emphasis is on the imbibing - what's the value in that (besides not having to book a sitter )? Is the child learning how to drink a Manhattan? Probably not.

I think an authorized gathering/private party is fine (it seems along the same lines as those Mommy Matinees, where parents can bring even crying children to the movies), but I don't think that other adult patrons should have to deal with children running around while they try to enjoy their $15 martinis.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Megan Blocker (log)

[Carrot Top]

Well said, in my opinion. And I agree, even though I am a mother of two and it would be an easier world if children were not children sometimes.

But they are. And there are places that they will not belong until they are not.

[slkinsey]

I do tend to agree that a bar/lounge is no place for children. That said, if there's someplace that interests you, call them up and see what they tell you. Different bar/lounges will have a different vibe. I've noticed that most of the cocktail bars in NYC have certain days and certain times when customers are likely to have the joint more or less to themselves. It's possible that you could drop in to one of these at 5 PM sharp on the right day and not have too much trouble bringing along a 7 month old. Or maybe you would. Can't hurt to ask. All the best places want is for the experience to be mutually pleasant. They won't hesitate to tell you if they think it might be problematic, and they won't hesitate to tell you if they think it should be fine.

[ScorchedPalate]

Wow, is it actually legal in NY to bring under-21s into a bar?

[Megan Blocker]

Wow, is it actually legal in NY to bring under-21s into a bar?

←

No, but some might make an exception for a baby...i.e., someone who clearly won't be drinking or breaking any laws.

Plus, you can't smoke in bars anymore, so that's not an issue.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Megan Blocker (log)

[FabulousFoodBabe]

Look -- I adore my sons, but there are times and places where kids just don't belong. A place like Pegu is one of them. I've also seen that when children are introduced into such a situation, the general attitude is that things should revolve around them (if the baby is trying to sleep, or the toddler wants to show off, everyone should keep it quiet, don't cuss, pay attention to the kiddo, that type of thing).

No judgment being made here, of course; I know too many people who believe that the world should be child centered for all sorts of reasons. Really, though, hanging out at bars is something Mr. FB and I gave up when we had little kids and didn't want to leave them with sitters.

Wow, is it actually legal in NY to bring under-21s into a bar?

I don't think so, if the place falls into the "alcohol consumption being its primary purpose" rule, or whatever.

Edited August 31, 2005 by FabulousFoodBabe (log)

[ScorchedPalate]

No, but some might make an exception for a baby...i.e., someone who clearly won't be drinking or breaking any laws.

Are we talking "they" the establishment, or "they" the authorities? In my experience, governmental agencies have little wiggle room for that sort of thing. Where would they draw the line? I think there are legitimate child-welfare reasons for keeping kids out of bars other than their own drinking.

Edited to add: Not that a visit to place like Pegu is going to corrupt the little ones for life, but legally it would be impossible to make the distinction between someone bringing their infant to a classy cocktail lounge, and someone else dragging their 6-year-old to the skeezy corner tavern every night.

Edited August 31, 2005 by ScorchedPalate (log)

[Megan Blocker]

"they" the establishment, or "they" the authorities? In my experience, governmental agencies have little wiggle room for that sort of thing. Where would they draw the line? I think there are legitimate child-welfare reasons for keeping kids out of bars other than their own drinking.

←

I meant "they" the establishment, not the authorities.

I agree that there are issues beyond the comfort of other patrons when it comes to talking about kids in bars; however, I think that a place like Pegu would be relatively calm during the hours that a parent might consider toting a child along.

Of course, I've seen parents bring children to midnight movies here in the city, so I guess they might bring a child to the bar at the same time. Don't get the sense that this is what Christopher had in mind, though...

Edited August 31, 2005 by Megan Blocker (log)

[plattetude]

Of course, I've seen parents bring children to midnight movies here in the city, so I guess they might bring a child to the bar at the same time. Don't get the sense that this is what Christopher had in mind, though...

We're certainly not entertaining the notion of getting blitzed at 10pm and staggering out at 3am.

Honestly, I'm sure it may seem we're being utterly self-centered and boorish to even consider bringing an infant to a bar. The bottom line though, is that we only spend time with him on weekends; we don't want to leave him behind if we're trekking into Manhattan for an afternoon/early evening. And he's been so incredibly well-behaved in so many different environments that we don't even think twice about toting him along most times.

Our most notable major adventure with him was on Father's Day, when we had a grand ol' time wandering through the Flatiron District and across to the Meatpacking District where I cautiously asked the host at 5 Ninth if we'd be welcome with our stroller. Not only were we welcome, but we essentially had the area near the bar all to ourselves (it being mid-afternoon on a Sunday), and we had a fabulous time (and a couple of fabulous drinks). Based on that experience, it never seemed like a great leap to consider having him with us at Pegu.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies so far... Quite a hot-button issue, I see!

Christopher

[LEdlund]

The bottom line though, is that we only spend time with him on weekends; we don't want to leave him behind if we're trekking into Manhattan for an afternoon/early evening. 

←

My two cents: If you want to spend time with him on the weekend, you should absolutely do that. If you want to meet your friends at Pegu Club for drinks, then you should do that. I'm not sure you can do both at the same time. If it were just the two of you, and you were doing other things in Manhattan on the same outing, I could be persuaded to agree that it might be okay to bring him to Pegu Club. The deal breaker for my sensibilities was that you were meeting friends there and your attention would (should?) be focused on them.

Keeping in mind this is coming from the perspective of someone without children and who loves meeting friends for conversation and cocktails!

Lauren

[jgm]

I love kids of all sizes and ages, but there are places they don't belong. I've never been in this particular bar, but it sounds like a place children should not be taken.

If you're properly engaging in conversations with your friends at this bar, then you're not "with" your child. You're stringing him along and avoiding guilt. It's one of those "quality time" things. And if you're "with" your child at these times, you're probably not holding up your end of the conversation with your friends.

I encourage you to leave your child at home when you go to this particular bar. If it bothers you to not spend as much time with him on the weekend, consider taking some time off during the week to make up for it.

If I were your companion for drinks, I would deeply resent it if you brought your child along, although I probably wouldn't show it. There will be points during the evening at which you will be neglecting me and the conversation in order to attend to the child's (very legitimate) needs. If I'm going to clear out an evening to spend with you, especially at a "nice" place where the cocktails are pricey, I expect you do to the same. I'm sure your child is wonderful, and I'd probably love to spend some time laughing and playing with him in your living room or in a park. (I've been known to "borrow" friends' children, just to get a kid fix.) And I know you are deeply in love with him, as you should be, but I'm reminding you that there are times when it is appropriate to separate yourself and socialize with your adult friends, giving them your full attention. It'll be good for you, and good for them. It's part of having balance in your life.

[Megan Blocker]

Bump!

There's a piece in today's New York Times that made me think of this thread...it's a short one, but basically questions why people feel the need to bring their little ones into bars. Obviously, there are at least two (if not several) sides to every debate, so, please, tawk amongst yourselves!

I've adjusted to the idea that many otherwise reasonable people believe there's no point in paying for a baby sitter on movie night when their toddler can entertain himself by kicking the back of my chair.

But bars? A group of 19-year-olds would be stopped at the door, but no one has the guts to card the really little ones.

[byron]

This reminds me of the 500lb gorilla at the end of the bar drinking his double single malt neat - we are well aware of intelligence but the apprehension factor spreads like a underlying virus.

Children evoke a wide array of feelings and responsibilites, all of which may not be conducive to the "atmosphere" of the business.

Consideration is everything - the establishment or patrons should not have to adjust to the child.

We welcome children under these conditions.

W.C.Fields (I recall once seeing a dog chew on a little kid,which is not itself a bad idea but it does show the dog's intention. Well,sir,a dog lover witnessing the demonstration was heard to remark,"My,My,that poor dog must have been terribly hungry.")

[KatieLoeb]

Great article. It's true that we'd all be stopped at the door for bringing our own bottles.

Christopher, with all due respect, I think the crux of this argument is the one that eludes all of the parents that bring their children to inappropriate places, regardless of whether the child is well behaved or not.

You're not alone in the world with your partner anymore. It's a decision the rest of us presume you made with thoughtful intentions. Your life has changed. Ours shouldn't have to because of a private decision you and your co-parent made. While I understand you have limited free time to spend with your child, bringing them to an entirely inappropriate location in an attempt to multi-task is insensitive and rude to all the other patrons as well as whatever friends you might be meeting. Get a babysitter, or go meet your friends in an appropriate location where your child is welcomed and not a distraction or a stretch of the local ordinances. I have every confidence that there are parents out there that agree with me.

Get a babysitter and make a night of it at Pegu or the watering hole of your choice. YOU'LL have a better time too.

[Splificator]

As a barfly of some thirty years' standing and a parent of eight (that is, eight years' standing, not eight children, thank God!), I have to respectfully disagree--provisionally, though. I'm never bothered in a bar by anybody who isn't bothering me. If the child is quiet and well-behaved and the parents are attentive and don't let the infink (as Popeye would say) have free range of the place or scream, cry, shout, throw Cheerios on the floor, and if they don't take over the place with their impedimenta, then where's the harm?

[Sneakeater]

This is why eating out in Park Slope is often such a trial.

[slkinsey]

I tend to agree with Dave on this one, although I would point out that his provisions ("child is quiet and well-behaved and the parents are attentive") are absolutely key. There are some bars where I can see this working fairly well (e.g., a relatively quiet and uncrowded bar), but many more where I can't see it working very well. And, of course, there does come a point where enough is enough, and there is something to be said for an adult atmosphere.

All this is to say that I wouldn't mind a quiet kid or two at a local taphouse on Saturday afternoon, but I don't want to find a crying baby next to me or 5 strollers taking up space at Flatiron Lounge on Thursday night.

[Sneakeater]

I see this as more a thin-edge-of-the-wedge problem.

The problem I joked about above with eating out in Park Slope is that it's a very children-centric neighborhood. And, for reasons it's fun to speculate about (but we'll leave that for another day), today's parents -- in sharp contrast to my parents' generation -- feel that it's somehow necessary to take their children along when they go out to eat, even on weekends. This leads to an atmosphere where you're sitting in, say, Blue Ribbon, and children are running all around the room, yelling, bumping into chairs and tables, etc. And who can blame them? As I recall from the times I was taken out to eat at their age (NEVER, I should point out, after 5 or 6 p.m., and NEVER to anyplace with any pretentions toward being good), it's boring to be a kid in a restaurant. And, for reasons it's fun to speculate about (be we'll leave that for another day), today's parents -- in sharp contrast to my parents' generation -- seem to feel there's no reason to try to reign their children in.

So, you start by saying it's OK to take babies to cocktail lounges, the next thing you know it'll be toddlers, and then children. And then there'll be practically NOWHERE in this world reserved just for adults.

[plattetude]

I'd rather reply in a way that neither gets up the dander of those who've chastised me for even bringing this up, or gets up my own dander. Frankly, I'm not sure that'll be possible, but here goes.

First, an update: we did go to Pegu, and planned to go in shifts with our friend. As I finished my first round, I called my wife to let her know I'd stroll with our youngin while she enjoyed the vibe. It should be noted that it was shortly after 5 on a Sunday, and there was perhaps one other party at the other end of the room. I decided, why not ask if they'd abide a stroller for a quick round, which I did ask, and was graciously told there'd be no problem. No one on the staff batted an eye as I brought the stroller in and we set up in an out-of-the-way corner. We all had our round and left. Toby never made much of a peep, other than to coyly flirt with the waitstaff. If any patrons were distressed, they were extremely discreet about it. And of course, if our son had made any sort of scene, we would not have stayed longer than it took to settle up and hustle out.

[incidentally, although I asked the question of whether it would be okay to bring the baby in in such a way as to allow "no" for an answer, and was told, with no hesitation, that it wouldn't be a problem, as we were leaving, it was communicated to us by someone else that it is not their policy to permit children of any shape or size.]

As for the bigger-picture, slippery-slope, "parents today think they're entitled to everything" arguments, I'll only say that the general case is the general case, but please don't ascribe your thoughts and prejudices to an individual you don't know (whether that individual is me, my wife, or our friend). We never intended this was something we'd do regularly, or frankly even more than once. (And our friend never felt slighted in the least by "sharing" us with our son, by the bye.) And certainly we're sensitive to the idea that this question has the potential to upset people and bring their high dudgeon down mightily; if we thought it was generally acceptible, would I even have brought up the question? The opening of Pegu Club was of extremely high interest to me and my wife, having been big fans of Bemelmans and having been chomping at the bit since we'd first heard word of it. It was extremely important to both of us to get there as soon as we could after they opened, and we tried to make it a time that would maximize our enjoyment and minimize our impact.

All the opinions given upthread are certainly taken in the spirit they're meant, but please do realize that my wife and I know that babies aren't appropriate in all places at all times. We had a lovely dinner out at Venue this weekend and had no qualms leaving our son home. Conversely, we absolutely love the fact that we now have a place like The Cup Joint to have a great dinner that's fully family-friendly. None of that has any bearing on what we were asking about at the top of this thread, and again, if we felt entitled to bring a baby everywhere, I certainly wouldn't even have posed the question. In any case, this thread came about from a very specific question about a very specific circumstance that wound up having a workable resolution.

The point is obviously moot by now, and I fully understand that by opening up this can of worms in this forum, I asked for whatever broad brush strokes are going to be splattered my way. I also realize that I shouldn't have asked the general case, knowing my own intentions for having this be a one-off situation, and expect everyone here to have gleaned those intentions. (Not that I'd expect knowing that would've changed many, or any, opinions expressed here, nor should they have necessarily done so.)

If Toby wants another Fitty-Fitty, he'll have to ask his daddy to make it for him, just like any other baby. Say, anyone have any suggestions for getting a nipple on a cocktail glass?

Christopher

[KatieLoeb]

I see this as more a thin-edge-of-the-wedge problem.

The problem I joked about above with eating out in Park Slope is that it's a very children-centric neighborhood.  And, for reasons it's fun to speculate about (but we'll leave that for another day), today's parents -- in sharp contrast to my parents' generation -- feel that it's somehow necessary to take their children along when they go out to eat, even on weekends.  This leads to an atmosphere where you're sitting in, say, Blue Ribbon, and children are running all around the room, yelling, bumping into chairs and tables, etc.  And who can blame them?  As I recall from the times I was taken out to eat at their age (NEVER, I should point out, after 5 or 6 p.m., and NEVER to anyplace with any pretentions toward being good), it's boring to be a kid in a restaurant.  And, for reasons it's fun to speculate about (be we'll leave that for another day), today's parents -- in sharp contrast to my parents' generation -- seem to feel there's no reason to try to reign their children in.

So, you start by saying it's OK to take babies to cocktail lounges, the next thing you know it'll be toddlers, and then children.  And then there'll be practically NOWHERE in this world reserved just for adults.

←

This problem was well addressed by the coffee-shop owner that put up the sign asking for "no children" because his staff and he inevitably ended up babysitting for the stroller jockeys that had invaded his coffee shop and scared off all of his childless customers. Not to mention that his liability insurance didn't cover a waitress with a hot plate tripping over a toddler that had no business playing on the floor with his Tonka truck. The moms in question got all uppity and insulted that the business owner might wish to set his own rules in his own place of business and merely asked politely and non-confrontationally through the use of signage that their children be left at home. That pretty much sums up the whole problem with the entitled set. It's ALL ABOUT THEM!!! It didn't even hit the radar screen that the business owner might have a god-given right to operate his business however he saw fit, provided he wasn't being illegally discriminatory. Heaven forfend he might not want to scare off the majority of his customers that might come to his shop for a quiet read of a newspaper or book or a little work on their laptop.

[joey madison]

Bringing kids to bars is a fairly well-established practice here (WI). And provided the parents aren't there to get sloshed, and the kids are well-behaved, I think it is a perfectly fine a acceptable practice (and I'm not just saying that because my parents always brought me to bars). It can be beneficial in many ways. It teaches kids how to interact with people that are older than them, and the basics of social interaction.

That said, parents have to be vigilant in watching out for their kids while at bars. And certain joints are much more kid-appropriate than others. In many smaller communities, bars act as community centers, and I think that's a completely appropriate environment. A swanky cocktail lounge or a hard-drinking biker bar, not so much.

[jgm]

As a barfly of some thirty years' standing and a parent of eight (that is, eight years' standing, not eight children, thank God!), I have to respectfully disagree--provisionally, though. I'm never bothered in a bar by anybody who isn't bothering me.  If the child is quiet and well-behaved and the parents are attentive and don't let the infink (as Popeye would say) have free range of the place or scream, cry, shout, throw Cheerios on the floor, and if they don't take over the place with their impedimenta, then where's the harm?

←

The harm is in the potential for a tantrum that develops at less than a moment's notice. Many, many times --too many-- I've been in a restaurant where a child's behavior is deteriorating, but maybe the dinner is almost over, so they hesitate to take the child out; maybe the poor behavior is due to hunger, and dinner should be here any second... etc. In my experience, behavior has to deteriorate pretty badly before parents are willing to exit with the child, even temporarily.

If this stuff starts happening in a family restaurant, I have the right to be mildly irritated (but I not necessarily will be). But I've gotta tell you, I spend all day dealing with temperamental people and their sometimes very extreme problems. If I've called a friend to meet me after work so that we can unwind over a drink, and we picked a place intended for adults, I would be really irritated to find children in there. I don't want to hear the fussing or anything related to it, that often can happen with even the most well-behaved child. And lest anyone launch a tirade at me for hating children, see my post above. I don't.

Let me put it this way. There's a time and a place for everything. If the bar is a casual place, then I wouldn't automatically say it's off limits to children just because it's a bar. The place mentioned in the beginning of this thread was characterized as a "fine drinking establishment" and subsequent posts led me to believe that their prices are reflective of that. The issue, in my mind, is that there are some establishments where one has a right to expect an adult atmosphere. Children just don't belong everywhere.

[slkinsey]

Christopher, your point is well made with respect to not ascribing the general condition to every individual. If all parents were as considerate and thoughtful as you, no one would give this sort of thing a second thought.

[Sneakeater]

If that didn't go without saying, then I want to say it, too.