Origins

[Hopleaf]

I've repeatedly fessed to being new to wine. I'm getting less and less new with ever sip.

What I'm wondering about today is if I went out and got me a handful of grapes, say syrah just for the purposes of arguement, would they share any taste characteristics with the wine they would become? would this handful of syrah grapes taste like a syrah wine in any way? Is a syrah a syrah a syrha, que syrah? how many syrahs can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could figure out a corkscrew?

...ahem...sorry. Anyway...

I realize that a whole host of factors go into the process of making wine from grapes. factors that can have a dramatic effect on how those grapes taste before and after. chemical reactions, human manipulation, container storage, etc.

But I can't seem to get beyond that there isn't some relation to a grape's origins in the wine and vice versa.

And clearly the whole terroir (a new to me wine term that fills me with a healthy measure of terror) is a complicated bag in and of itself. Perhaps we can simply speak in generalities.

[Keith Talent]

Grapes are to wine as milk is to cheese, that help?

[Hopleaf]

Grapes are to wine as milk is to cheese, that help?

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Not really, Keith, but only because the yeast strains introduced to the milk are what give cheeses unique flavors. So the analogy doesn't work. Specific grapes are used to make specific wine.

[Rebel Rose]

how many syrahs can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could figure out a corkscrew?

...ahem...sorry. Anyway...

Each grape varietal has its own distinctive character, but fermenting the fruit brings out that distinctiveness, and allowing it to age in oak involves a little evaporation, which therefore condenses the flavor.

Recognizing a varietal by tasting grapes fresh from the vineyard takes lots of practice. The wine is an amalgam of everything in the grape package: the juicy pulp, the skins, even the seeds. If you open any red grape, table or wine, you will see that the skin is colored and the pulp is white or pale pink. Most of a red wine's pigment, tannin, and flavor come from the skin of the grape, which is macerated and then softened during the processes of crushing and fermentation. The skins leach their proanthocyandolic goodies into the fermenting pulp juice, and the two yin and yang halves of the fruit become a voluptuous body.

For me, syrah and zin are pretty easy to recognize as raw grapes, as is viognier. Syrah has a blueberry-beef character in the skins, and zinfandel's spicy raspberry flavor is usually pretty evident. Viognier grapes taste like forbidden nectar, and riesling has a delicate, feminine flavor. Sauvignon blanc grapes taste grassy and sassy. Chardonnay, merlot and cab are harder for me to identify absolutely.

I bet you can identify various hops by their aroma, shape and color. Learning to identify grapes is sort of the same learning curve. . .

[mrbigjas]

thanks for asking that question, hopleaf. i've often wondered the same thing.

[Mark Sommelier]

I have been told by winemakers that the only grape that really tastes like the wine it makes is gewurztraminer.

[Hopleaf]

Mark was that a gewurtraminer winemaker that told ya that!?

mrbigjas, big ups yo!

Rebel Rose, that's a helluva response. thanks.

[winesonoma]

Grapes are to wine as milk is to cheese, that help?

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Not really, Keith, but only because the yeast strains introduced to the milk are what give cheeses unique flavors. So the analogy doesn't work. Specific grapes are used to make specific wine.

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As are the yeasts used to make the wines.

[carswell]

I have been told by winemakers that the only grape that really tastes like the wine it makes is gewurztraminer.

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I'd add muscat to that list.

[ctgm]

Grapes are to wine as milk is to cheese, that help?

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Not really, Keith, but only because the yeast strains introduced to the milk are what give cheeses unique flavors. So the analogy doesn't work. Specific grapes are used to make specific wine.

←

As are the yeasts used to make the wines.

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In my mind yeasts are one of the most important factors. About 10 years ago there was a propensity to use the R2 strain, and this to me, gave a uniformity of tastes to a lot of wines - which was a shame. The best yeast is that found naturally occuring in the vineyards but this does require more work than packeted R2.

I used to work with a wine maker who was doing a lot of expirements alongside bakers, to try and get a yeast that would best.

[Hopleaf]

Not really, Keith, but only because the yeast strains introduced to the milk are what give cheeses unique flavors. So the analogy doesn't work. Specific grapes are used to make specific wine.

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As are the yeasts used to make the wines.

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There's a difference, winesonoma. The milk doesn't taste like anything close to what the cheeses end up tasting like after the yeast is added. you don't use specific milk for specific cheeses (well, ok, goat milk for goat cheese, but you see the same cow's milk for Cheddar, Stilton, Exploratoir [personal favorite of mine], etc.) I'm asking here if the grapes do taste like the finished products. Since the varietal plays such an important factor in how a wine tastes, it would seem there'd be more of a sensory relationship between the two. And actually, I might even say that the yeast isn't as influencial in the taste of the final product in winemaking as it is in cheesemaking. Clearly the yeast is necessary, but does it take precedence over the varietal? If it did, we'd be reading about yeast varieties on wine labels.

CTGM, you consider the yeasts to be the most important factors in what exactly? winemaking? or the taste relationship of the grape and the wine?

[Keith Talent]

We're quickly spinning into territory where my lack of technical expertice renders everything I say mere speculation, but I've never let that stop me before.

With regards to the milk/cheee thing, it's my understanding that you unequivicably cannot make stilton with milk from cows traditionally used to make brie, or what have you. The cows diet influences the final chesse to a great extent, from what I've read.

And this is merely a guess, but perhaps most grapes taste reasonably similar, while wines differ greatly becuase grapes contain flavour compounds that are alcohol soluable and therefore are not tasted in the fruit and are not liberated until fermentation?

[PCL]

Not really, Keith, but only because the yeast strains introduced to the milk are what give cheeses unique flavors. So the analogy doesn't work. Specific grapes are used to make specific wine.

←

As are the yeasts used to make the wines.

←

There's a difference, winesonoma. The milk doesn't taste like anything close to what the cheeses end up tasting like after the yeast is added. you don't use specific milk for specific cheeses (well, ok, goat milk for goat cheese, but you see the same cow's milk for Cheddar, Stilton, Exploratoir [personal favorite of mine], etc.) I'm asking here if the grapes do taste like the finished products. Since the varietal plays such an important factor in how a wine tastes, it would seem there'd be more of a sensory relationship between the two. And actually, I might even say that the yeast isn't as influencial in the taste of the final product in winemaking as it is in cheesemaking. Clearly the yeast is necessary, but does it take precedence over the varietal? If it did, we'd be reading about yeast varieties on wine labels.

CTGM, you consider the yeasts to be the most important factors in what exactly? winemaking? or the taste relationship of the grape and the wine?

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Parmigiano can and does taste according to the areas where the cattle have been grazing. Freshly cracked barrels of parmigiano are full of little 'crystals' almost like salt crystals and sucking on a few of them can yield wonderful results. Wet grass vs hay vs dry grass from higher up the hill etc etc. Cold season? Mushy. dry season? perhaps pungency is higher, just right? Well, close to perfection in balance, but still, you should be able to sense the terroir.

Also, different types of cattle are used in different parts of the world to create the diverse species of cheeses we enjoy.

In my mind, there is a strong relationship between milk and cheese and grapes and wine.

Maybe if you fed the cow grapes of the wine you intend to pair with the cheese, now let's see if that can work!

[winesonoma]

Not really, Keith, but only because the yeast strains introduced to the milk are what give cheeses unique flavors. So the analogy doesn't work. Specific grapes are used to make specific wine.

←

As are the yeasts used to make the wines.

←

There's a difference, winesonoma. The milk doesn't taste like anything close to what the cheeses end up tasting like after the yeast is added. you don't use specific milk for specific cheeses (well, ok, goat milk for goat cheese, but you see the same cow's milk for Cheddar, Stilton, Exploratoir [personal favorite of mine], etc.) I'm asking here if the grapes do taste like the finished products. Since the varietal plays such an important factor in how a wine tastes, it would seem there'd be more of a sensory relationship between the two. And actually, I might even say that the yeast isn't as influencial in the taste of the final product in winemaking as it is in cheesemaking. Clearly the yeast is necessary, but does it take precedence over the varietal? If it did, we'd be reading about yeast varieties on wine labels.

CTGM, you consider the yeasts to be the most important factors in what exactly? winemaking? or the taste relationship of the grape and the wine?

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Where were the grapes grown, How were they grown i.e. Watered, not watered, Were they suited to the conditions of the area? what was the sugar content when picked? what Yeast was used? What type of oak? What is the winemaker looking For flavor wise. How long was it aged? If I gave you 3 different grapes and 3 different wines I doubt you could tell which was which. Micro-climates are the key along with soil and growing conditions. The proper yeast is used to bring the flavor out.