Otto Enoteca Pizzeria

[Fat Guy]

What the New York Times reported was:

"Mario Batali is about to open Otto at 1 Fifth Avenue, where he will serve thin, crisp pizza inspired by the Sardinian flat bread called carta da musica"

The thing is, the pizza crust at Otto bears no resemblance (other than being flat and round) to any carta da musica or pane carasau I've ever seen, and it doesn't seem to conform to any of the recipes out there. I'm also having trouble finding any discussion of Sardinian pizza in the literature. The pliability and appearance of the pizza crust at Otto is more in the Neapolitan category than it is in any other category I'm aware of.

Has anybody here eaten Sardinian pizza in Sardinia? Assuming there is any sort of serious independent Sardinian pizza tradition, what are the salient crust characteristics that would differentiate it from Neapolitan? Is a different flour utilized? Different ovens? Toppings?

FG, I have not had pizza in Sardinia, but I have had variations on pane carasau -- e.g. pane frattau where they turn the flatbread layers back into a kind of lasagne, by dipping them in salted water and then layering them with tomato sauce, cheese and finishing with an egg. It tastes much better than it sounds.

Pane carasau -- if that is what Otto are serving -- would not work well for pizza. It is too thin and crisp to hold topping ingredients. In any event it is not made on a griddle, but in a woodburning oven much like a pizza oven. I have seen griddle breads called, I think, piadine. But these are Roman. And they taste nothing like a pizza.

Jonathan, I think we're in agreement about the definitions here. That's why I've basically ignored the published claims regarding what Otto is trying to serve. What comes out on the plate is clearly something that's striving to be a Verace Pizza-style DOC-type thing.

[La Niña]

What the New York Times reported was:

"Mario Batali is about to open Otto at 1 Fifth Avenue, where he will serve thin, crisp pizza inspired by the Sardinian flat bread called carta da musica"

The thing is, the pizza crust at Otto bears no resemblance (other than being flat and round) to any carta da musica or pane carasau I've ever seen, and it doesn't seem to conform to any of the recipes out there. I'm also having trouble finding any discussion of Sardinian pizza in the literature. The pliability and appearance of the pizza crust at Otto is more in the Neapolitan category than it is in any other category I'm aware of.

Has anybody here eaten Sardinian pizza in Sardinia? Assuming there is any sort of serious independent Sardinian pizza tradition, what are the salient crust characteristics that would differentiate it from Neapolitan? Is a different flour utilized? Different ovens? Toppings?

FG, I have not had pizza in Sardinia, but I have had variations on pane carasau -- e.g. pane frattau where they turn the flatbread layers back into a kind of lasagne, by dipping them in salted water and then layering them with tomato sauce, cheese and finishing with an egg. It tastes much better than it sounds.

Pane carasau -- if that is what Otto are serving -- would not work well for pizza. It is too thin and crisp to hold topping ingredients. In any event it is not made on a griddle, but in a woodburning oven much like a pizza oven. I have seen griddle breads called, I think, piadine. But these are Roman. And they taste nothing like a pizza.

Jonathan, I think we're in agreement about the definitions here. That's why I've basically ignored the published claims regarding what Otto is trying to serve. What comes out on the plate is clearly something that's striving to be a Verace Pizza-style DOC-type thing.

Can somebody please check with Mario or one of the team members and get a real answer?

[Jason Perlow]

That is the real answer, Nina. Steven spent several hours with Mario on opening day and he told him it was a pizza recipe from Sardegna.

[Fat Guy]

Steven spent several hours with Mario on opening day and told him it was a pizza recipe from Sardegna.

Ellen and I were in the kitchen from noon until 3:00pm on opening day watching Mario and his head baker make pizza. The original plan was for me to write a behind-the-scenes story for the Webzine, but I felt that the coverage on this thread was so good (compared to what has been in the Times, we should get a friggin' Pulitzer) it would have been superfluous for me to write anything in that format. So we posted some photos here and moved on. I can't say I asked him all the questions I should have. For one thing, he was busy and we only spoke for ten or fifteen minutes during the whole three hours. For another thing, I hadn't formulated the questions I wanted to ask -- this thread significantly clarified my thinking. And for still another thing, the progression was wrong: I didn't actually taste anything until after 3:00pm and I had no time to ask follow-up questions because we had to meet Dale at Beacon to photograph the FOG cocktail. What I'd like to do someday, once Mario gets through the big opening push, is spend some time observing the technique from start to finish in the hopes of reformulating it for home cooks. As I said before, because the equipment consists of a griddle and broiler, it should be possible to create pizza in this style without resorting to bricks, stones, tiles, spray bottles, etc. A cast-iron skillet should do the trick.

[La Niña]

That is the real answer, Nina. Steven spent several hours with Mario on opening day and he  told him it was a pizza recipe from Sardegna.

"Pizza," or Sardinian flat bread or that carta da musica thing or....?

And then why did FG say this: "That's why I've basically ignored the published claims regarding what Otto is trying to serve. What comes out on the plate is clearly something that's striving to be a Verace Pizza-style DOC-type thing."

What did Mario say, exactly?

Edited January 26, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[Fat Guy]

What did Mario say, exactly?

Once again, I must not have been clear. He didn't say anything that would answer the question that's on the table. I didn't ask him to distinguish between pizza recipe, flatbread recipe, Sardinian pizza, Sardinian pizza based on a flatbread, Neapolitan pizza based on a Sardinian method for making flatbread, a different style of pizza based on DOC ingredients but done some way he saw in Sardinia, etc. Not that I'd defer to his answer if I thought the product emerging from the kitchen didn't confirm it. The pizza is what it is.

[Jinmyo]

I remember reading Mario on this concept months ago. He said that he wasn't trying to duplicate anything. He was going to use the "music card" Sardinian flatbreads as a basis for a new kind of pizza.

[Adam Balic]

Bux informs me that there is some discussion of the use of clams in their shell on pizza in this thread. Some help to the main points please,as I can't seem to find that information.

Below is a discription of a clam pizza I ate in Radda in Chianti recently.

"Clams were tiny, ~1.5 - 2 cm in length. Very little meat, but this cooking technique had the advantage of allowing all the juices to be captured by the pizza. Bigger clams would have ment soggy dough I think. Clams were added at end of cooking of pizza so they didn't dry out during cooking. As soon as they opened up pizza was taken out. Clams can be sucked of the shell in seconds, pizza eaten as per normal, can't see to much problem with that. Could be a problem if it was a cheese containing pizza I guess, but I prefer them without cheese and tomato anyway, so no problems for me."

Why problem with pizza and clams shells in NY?

[Fat Guy]

To me, the notion of pizza as something you can just pick up and eat doesn't reconcile with in-shell clams as a topping. By the time you get through the manipulation, you have cold pizza. It sounds to me as though the only reason they're served in the shell is to satisfy some sort of Italian cultural imperative to have freshness demonstrated. Given the lack of such a need here, I'm not sure why it's necessary. If they taste fresh, I'll believe they're fresh. Not to mention, sand is always a risk when you're dealing with whole clams. Sandy pizza, yuck.

[Adam Balic]

To me, the notion of pizza as something you can just pick up and eat doesn't reconcile with in-shell clams as a topping. By the time you get through the manipulation, you have cold pizza. It sounds to me as though the only reason they're served in the shell is to satisfy some sort of Italian cultural imperative to have freshness demonstrated. Given the lack of such a need here, I'm not sure why it's necessary. If they taste fresh, I'll believe they're fresh. Not to mention, sand is always a risk when you're dealing with whole clams. Sandy pizza, yuck.

Typical stoopid American answer.

Agree about fiddliness of it all, but it was a good way of stopping the clams from drying out and tasting like fresh clams, rather then preserved ones. How you get clams not dry out without shells? Cook clams seperately then tossing on at the end, seems wrong with pizza making for some reason.

[Fat Guy]

The fresh clam pies at Lombardi's downtown and Frank Pepe's in New Haven don't seem to have a drying-out problem. It's probably a combination of the olive oil and quick cooking that keeps them moist.

[Adam Balic]

This certainly true. I was more thinking about it in terms of replication in a domestic oven.

Tell me then, how do you feel about eating pizza with a knife and fork? Is this a significant issue for this new restaurant?

[Fat Guy]

I'm into eating pizza in whatever manner is most convenient. The Otto pizzas seem to work much better with hands -- I think someone observed that they don't even provide a proper knife. Larger, droopier slices call for fork and knife. But you can pick up an Otto slice and just eat it.

[bpearis]

NY Press sort-of reviews OTTO in this week's issue (only one visit). Basically says what's been said here: crust is tasteless but the gelato is awesome. Read it here.

[Wilfrid]

"(T)he crust was cracker-thin and tasteless"

- not bad, but I thought Cabby nailed it better when she compared it with "unduly dry pita bread".

After we've given Otto all the time it needs to settle down and tweak the pies, it would be interesting to discuss whether deciding not to use an oven was a huge mistake.

[tommy]

After we've given Otto all the time it needs to settle down and tweak the pies, it would be interesting to discuss whether deciding not to use an oven was a huge mistake.

what do think might be the disadvantages/advantages?

[Wilfrid]

Not a pizza expert by any means. I just note that the method - described by Fat Bloke and Suvir early in the thread, is apparently an unusual one. A griddle and a broiler. I don't know about Sardinia, but in Italy they seem to use ovens, as I believe do the more highly touted pizza joints in New York. Maybe they'll get the dough right using the griddle and broiler.

[Bux]

I shared some pizza at Otto with two moderators, three members and a couple of spouses. I was less ecstatic than the three members as I recall, but I'm not sure they've all posted. I think Fat Guy summed up his position very well when he responded to a question about where in the pantheon of places named as best pizza in NY on his site, by saying Otto didn't make the cut. While I didn't think the pizzas were great, I thought they were good enough that I didn't have to feel embarrassed about enjoying them very much. I noted that the ice cream was the best food in the house. I don't think I was the first to say that and I certainly wasn't the last. In fact, although there's a fairly wide range of reaction to the food and the place, it's been quite a while since I've read a truly original thought on the restaurant that's been posted here or elsewhere on the site.

I had lunch before I had dinner there and I was impressed by the caring service at lunch. At dinner, starting with the discombobulated reception, the service was very friendly, but a little haphazard. Since then I've been hearing worse reports. I'm surprised to have only read one eGullet report complaining about the way you are asked to wait and pay attention to the posting of a city name that matches the one assigned to you. No names are called out and there's some suggestion that the system is erratically employed or worse yet, unfairly abused.

[Liza]

A few quotes from Jeffrey Steingarten's essay, "Perfection Pizza", included as part of It Must Have Been Something I Ate.

1) "The most important thing about pizza is the crust. Toppings are secondary. "

2) "There are two perfect pizzas. One is Neapolitan. . . The other perfect pizza is Neapolitan-American. "

3) "The mystic hand of evolution somehow transmuted the true Neapolitan pizza of 1889 into the perfect Neapolitan-American pizza of today, which is 14-18 inches in diameter, rimmed with a wide, puffy, charred circumferential border; heavier, thinner, crisper, and chewier than the Neapolitan original..."

4) "Serious pizza places here and in Naples have brick ovens fueled either by wood, or in New York City and New Haven, by coal."

[Bond Girl]

Just had a great meal at Otto with Blondie. The artichoke was very tasty, a bit on the salty side, but tender and flavorful. Citrus and Celery root salad lived up to all the rave praises that I've been hearing. I've found it a very fresh pairing of flavors with the sweetness of celery roots balancing the fresh tartness of the citrus. I had the Napolitan pizza with anchovies. if this were any other pizza, I would say the crust can do with a bit more flavor but with a rich tomato sauce and anchovies, I was glad for the plain pita like crust. Dessert was too die for. That ricotta gelato really rocks.

Edited February 2, 2003 by Bond Girl (log)

[Blondie]

Just had a great meal at Otto with Blondie.  The artichoke was very tasty, a bit on the salty side, but tender and flavorful.  Citrus and Celery root salad lived up to all the rave praises that I've been hearing.  I've found it a very fresh pairing of flavors with the sweetness of celery roots balancing the fresh tartness of the citrus.    I had the Napolitan pizza with anchovies.  if this were any other pizza, I would say the crust can do with a bit more flavor but with a rich tomato sauce and anchovies, I was glad for the plain pita like crust.  Dessert was too die for.  That ricotta gelato really rocks.

I had the porcini and Talleggio pizza. I really liked it, but then I’m a big fan of thin crust pizza. The slightly dry texture of the crust absorbed the oils/fats of the toppings without getting soggy and greasy, so I can’t find fault with the crust as a topping-delivery method, but probably wouldn’t like it on its own. It was very much like a pizza I had in Rome a few months ago. Bond Girl gave a very good assessment of the apps. The olive oil gelato was simply outstanding. The service was very friendly and professional. Overall, a great experience

[Bux]

I agree and made a similar point, less cleverly many pages ago.  The problem is marketing.  People can relate to pizza.  Many won't know what those other things are and will be afraid to try them.  Mario is a very astute marketer.

The one point being made in these last posts that I will agree with is that Otto's pizza does not satisfy my craving for "pizza." This is not to say, that I left Otto on either occasion still craving pizza. A full stomach will generally dull any food craving. What I am saying here is that let's say I've been craving some meat-loaf sandwich from my childhood all afternoon long for some unknown reason. If I go to Blue Hill, I will not get anything like that meat-loaf sandwich, but when I leave the restaurant I will not crave more food of any kind.

Nevertheless, back to Otto, diners may not only have a craving for the pizza they know, but will arrive with the full expectation that their craving will be satisfied. They are likely to be disappointed and that is likely to color any appreciation they might have for the product. In that regard, one might suggest Mario made a marketing mistake. Mario's track record is such that he doesn't need the word "pizza" lit up in the window of the shop to draw in customers. His name will do it. Had he said I'm going to take a chance on a rustic southern Italian dish that's hard to find in Italy and unlikely to appeal to New Yorkers, he would have had the same lines and waits at the bar for a table, but he'd probably have had reactions that went along the lines of "This stuff ain't bad. It kinda reminds me of pizza."

I know the pizza of my teenage hangouts, I know New Haven pizza and I have a fair knowledge of the upper middle level of current NY pizza (John's, Lombardi's, a few of the halfway decent slice places, etc.) That's not what Otto makes. Those who have decried it as party food, or even snack food, may not be so far off the mark, but that doesn't make it a bad buy or a bad place to have have a heavy snack of light supper. The gelati alone are a draw and for all the complaints I'm beginning to hear about service, it's a more comfortable place than Lombardi's, John's or anyplace I know remotely like it downtown. It also offers, if not authentic NY pizza, a wider variety of food than those places. I can only hope sociologists correctly interpret the length of this thread as an indication of the strength of people's opinion on pizza and not as symbolic of Otto's importance as a restaurant.

By the way, the room temperature octopus has drawn some high praise and some scorn. I thought the red sauce was delicious, but the stewed octopus had a consistency that was reminiscent of canned octopus. Not a bad dish, but it has more potential for disappointment than the pizza if you have hot fresh grilled octopus in mind.

[jaybee]

In that regard, one might suggest Mario made a marketing mistake. Mario's track record is such that he doesn't need the word "pizza" lit up in the window of the shop to draw in customers. His name will do it.

He may have been going for a broader market than Babbo attracts, hence "pizza". Well, hey, if he will be here for a Q&A, we can ask him, can't we?

[Bux]

Clearly Otto's price point is aimed at the broader market than Babbo's. Is there a broader market than those who watch him on TV or buy his books? Babbo is, at best, a minor label under the Mario brand.

The last I thought I read here was that Bourdain suggested to him that he appear, but that he was busy. It's often hard to to see the gossip for the rumors. Fortunately for me the innuendos go over my head.

[La Niña]

I spoke to Mario and several of his team (two of those present were Italian) last Tuesday. Originally, they wanted to do something very similar to "carta da musica," or Sardinian flat bread. It failed. It was too dry, too cracker-y, and didn't work with toppings. So they modified it and made it a bit more moist, a bit thicker, etc. (god knows what it was like when they first did it - a piece of wood?) I asked what it was similar to now, and they said "nothing." That it's Otto's style of "pizza alla piastra" - which means pizza on steel, aka grill. I asked whether it had anything to do with Neopolitan pizza verace...and they said absolutely not. It is now a unique Otto creation. They described it as similar to the food in their other restaurants - Italian style with their own take on it. There's a description of this approach on the Babbo website:

http://www.babbonyc.com/vision.html

That being said, some more words on the pizza - I have been to Otto 3 times. The last time, when I was with an egullet group on Friday, the center was markedly soggier when it arrived at the table. When I picked up a piece, the corner even flopped over. But the several inches starting from the edge arrived hard, with an unpleasant texture. And moments after it arrived, the whole crust turned similarly hard. Once again, I tried the crust plain on each pie, and found the crust utterly tasteless, odorless, and tough. At one point I attempted to cut a piece off with a fork and a knife, and I had to saw and saw just to get the knife through (and this was not at the edge). Blech.

Also, a definition. Pizza Margherita was named for Queen Margherita, wife of Italy's King Umberto I, who was known for her very sensitive palate as well as her patriotism. It contains mozzarella (and no other cheese), plain tomato sauce, and basil, with some olive oil, on a crust. The colors of the Italian flag - white, red, and green. That's it. So the Otto margherita is that, but DiFara's makes no such thing. Even if one were to ask for such a thing, his sauce isn't plain.

Some words on the Otto service: although I have been made aware of the existence of coat room by other people - all three times when I came in, nobody offered to check my coat or take my bags or any such thing. The wine service is comical (see Robert Nesta Marley's comments on this thread). They did change their policy about handing people a dessert menu (they refused to do so on my first visit, saying that "they" didn't like them to do that, rather, they preferred to give a verbal list). I overheard another table ask their waitress what bufala mozzarella was, and instead of knowing the answer (it's made from buffalo milk), she said "well it just means the finest mozzarella." The service is somewhat haphazard and full of glitches.

The gelati remain superb.

Edited February 3, 2003 by La Niña (log)