Kanto vs. Kansai

[Hiroyuki]

where do you find this stuff!!??

waiting to hear more.

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My first post is a very, very brief summary of about 20 different webpages.

It should be noted that this topic is highly controversial and may be provocative to some Japanese, especially the residents of Nagoya, Aichi prefecture, many of whom think that their city is an independent state.

One of my interesting findings thus far is that some Nagoya people use chicken instead of beef or pork in their niku-jaga.

[Hiroyuki]

The term takikomi gohan is used in Kanto while kayaku gohan is used in Kansai.

When I first heard kayaku gohan, I thought that kayaku meant gunpowder. In reality, kayaku means added condiment.

If I remember right, my mother roughly used the term maze gohan to mean takikomi gohan.

***

Made a minor correction: not gunpower but gunpowder.

Edited December 13, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[torakris]

The term takikomi gohan is used in Kanto while kayaku gohan is used in Kansai.

When I first heard kayaku gohan, I thought that kayaku meant gunpower.  In reality, kayaku means added condiment.

If I remember right, my mother roughly used the term maze gohan to mean takikomi gohan.

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that explains a lot....

occasionally I would see recipes for kayaku gohan and when I would ask what it was they say takikomi, so I had though it was just a kind of takikomi gohan.

[Hiroyuki]

While searching, I found this book. I think I'll buy it and post some interesting stories here.

http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~qpc/eosaka/book_tokyo_osaka.html

[torakris]

While searching, I found this book.  I think I'll buy it and post some interesting stories here.

http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~qpc/eosaka/book_tokyo_osaka.html

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Amazon marketplace has it for 100yen ($1), I might get it too.....

[torakris]

interesting article on the differences between Tokyo and Osaka:

http://smt.blogs.com/trends_style_culture/...ifference_.html

food discussion is at the bottom

[Hiroyuki]

According to this webpage (Japanese only) of the TV show, Mega Ten, the salt concentration of the udon soup at one shop in Kansai is 2.5% while that at another shop in Kanto is 6.7%. In Kansai, light soy sauce is used while in Kanto, strong soy sauce is used. Light soy sauce has a slightly higher salt concentration, but the amounts of soy sauce used greatly differ. In Kansai, 500 ml of light soy sauce is added to 18 liter of dashi while in Kanto, 2200 ml of strong soy sauce is added.

Some more information later.

[Hiroyuki]

The following is a summary of the webpage I provided a link to in my previous post, with a bit of additional information (about Kitamame ships). (Sorry for my poor translation, which I produced rather quickly.)

The smell of the udon soup in Kanto is twice as strong as that in Kansai. Soup stock is made differently in Kanto and Kansai. Although the step for putting (and removing) kelp is the same in Kanto and Kansai, the next step differs in the amount of fish used and simmering time. In Kansai, 600-g fish is put to 18 liters of water, which is simmered for five minutes only. In Kanto, 1000-g fish is put to the same amount of water, which is simmered for one hour.

The primary reason why kelp became popular in Kansai is the presence of Kitamae ships.

A thread on Kitamae ships has already been started by torakris.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...5891&hl=Kitamae

But, there is another reason: water. The water in Kansai is soft, while that in Kanto is hard.

When fish is simmered in hard and soft water, no major difference is detected in the umami components extracted. When kelp is simmered, however, umami components are extracted more in soft water. It is hard to bring out the umami of kelp in the hard water in Kanto.

[Hiroyuki]

The following is the most detailed research on noodle soups that I have found so far.

http://cgi13.plala.or.jp/hiro_k/Report/Report10/r10_res.htm

(Japanese only)

One of the conclusions is that the soup served at Maibara Station in Shiga prefecture (or maybe Kyoto Station) is the lightest while the soup served at Oofuna Station in Kanagawa prefecture is the darkest.

[Hiroyuki]

Difference between kushikatsu (in Kansai) and kushiage (in Kanto)

In Kansai, there is no such word as kushiage, and kushikatsu refers to any food item, such as meat, sea food, and vegetable, that is skewered, breaded, and deep-fried.

In Kanto, such a food item is called a kushiage, and kushikatsu refers to pieces of pork and negi (scallion) or onion skewered alternately, breaded, and deep-fried.

Kushikatsu is very popular in Osaka. Being a Kanto person, I am not familiar with kushikatsu.

A webpage describing kushikatsu in Osaka:

http://www.tourism.city.osaka.jp/en/enjoy_...ng/local_osaka/

Scroll down and see the last topic.

A copy from the webpage:

If you go out for kushi-katsu please note: it's not proper etiquette to dip your kushi-katsu in the sauce containers after you've taken a bite, because the sauce containers are for all diners. Signs on restaurant walls remind diners of this rule.

Kushiage:

http://www.bob-an.com/recipe/dailyjc/ref/tmnegi/tmnegi.html

http://japanesefood.about.com/library/weekly/aa092302a.htm

[Kiem Hwa]

An article on differences betwen Kansai and Kanto flavors (includes some history):

http://www.kippo.or.jp/culture_e/syoku/int.../interview.html

[helenjp]

Kushikatsu...definintely a big part of Osaka dining. Maybe Kobe too, though I associate Kobe more with tonkatsu, but kushikatsu is foreign food if you go as far afield as Kyoto.

I've never eaten kushikatsu in Tokyo, so can't say, but certainly kushikatsu restaurants in Osaka serve practically anything that will fit in a frypan.

My memory is a little hazy, but I seem to recall some things served with salt and maybe sansho, and others with sauce...much the way that some tempura items such as prawn are served with salt in Osaka.

It's so long since I lived there that I've forgotten an awful lot...just odd things like the dowdy Printemps store in Shinsaibashi, which old Osaka families continued to visit for fruit ices "on the half shell".

I do think that Kansai people eat more fish and chicken than pork or beef. When I lived there, "mizutaki" chicken-based nabe was the standard family nabe.

I do remember my surprise on eating Kanto-style egg sushi for the first time though. In Osaka, egg sushi is a slice from a big datemaki roll with sushi rice in the middle. Nice and sweet, in true Osaka style!

[easternsun]

why do tokyoites say age-dama and osakans say tenkasu for the little tempura bits? i asked dh (who is trying desperately to reform my osaka-ben speaking ways into a polite lady who uses teinei ) but he just said tenkasu is not polite - then why is it on the packages ?

any thoughts?

[Hiroyuki]

why do tokyoites say age-dama and osakans say tenkasu for the little tempura bits? i asked dh (who is trying desperately to reform my osaka-ben speaking ways into a polite lady who uses teinei   ) but he just said tenkasu is not polite - then why is it on the packages ?

any thoughts?

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OK, since you ask, I don't think tenkasu is impolite.

I found this map.

http://weekend.nikkei.co.jp/kiko/map/tenkasu/map.html

Quite surprisingly, tenkasu (shown light blue) is predominant over Japan.

[torakris]

I prefer agedama as it just sounds more feminine.....

[easternsun]

i dont really think it is impolite but if i am being rude - then so are millions of other people

honestly, i never even heard the term agedama until i joined egullet. now i am on the look out at the super to see how many packages say tenkasu and how many say agedama. i will report back after my next trip to the super!

i dont think osaka ben sounds very feminine any way you slice it.

[Hiroyuki]

Some people maintain that tenkasu is different from agedama. They say that the former is a byproduct of tempura making (and is therefore served free of charge in Kansai) while the latter is made intentionally (and is therefore sold at a store).

I don't think that's true.

The reason why agedama sounds more feminine to torakris is, I think, that tenkasu is short for tempura no kasu and kasu means scum.

[helenjp]

i dont think osaka ben sounds very feminine any way you slice it.

Not so!!! Just find yourself a little old lady raised in one of the old-established Sakai families, and get her to teach you tea or some ridiculously old-fashioned style of singing or something - you'll soon find there's a gentle Osaka dialect, though maybe it's all but disappeared!

I think what happened was that the rich and educated took to the standard dialect as "NHK" Japanese became the standard, so only the "poor people's" Osaka-ben has survived.

I still love to hear that questioning upward lilt that Osaka, Kobe, and Okayama ladies give every statement!

(Thinks desperately how to make this sound food related, gives up...)

[WHS]

When I was a student, I stayed with a family that lived in a little valley between Kyoto and Nara. They grew their own rice, and when I took some with me to visit my relatives in Yokohama, they hated it. Said it was too soft, not enough flavor, etc.

[easternsun]

i dont think osaka ben sounds very feminine any way you slice it.

Not so!!! Just find yourself a little old lady raised in one of the old-established Sakai families, and get her to teach you tea or some ridiculously old-fashioned style of singing or something - you'll soon find there's a gentle Osaka dialect, though maybe it's all but disappeared!

I think what happened was that the rich and educated took to the standard dialect as "NHK" Japanese became the standard, so only the "poor people's" Osaka-ben has survived.

I still love to hear that questioning upward lilt that Osaka, Kobe, and Okayama ladies give every statement!

(Thinks desperately how to make this sound food related, gives up...)

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i take ikebana with a lady who is on NHK, so maybe i dont hear the kansai dialect in her .

my husband takes cha (tea ceremony) and his teacher is lovely. i am thinking of taking cha but i have to choose between cha and toge (pottery)...i cant afford both (time and money wise). i keep thinking about how lovely it would be to serve food on plates and dishes that i made myself but i hear the learning curve is steep. then again, the meditative quality of tea ceremony is so appealing as well. there just isnt enough time!

i do think the "poor people's" Osaka-ben is the most common. i really like it and feel that it is friendly, however, i am trying to stop speaking that way

[robyn]

Not so!!! Just find yourself a little old lady raised in one of the old-established Sakai families, and get her to teach you tea or some ridiculously old-fashioned style of singing or something - you'll soon find there's a gentle Osaka dialect, though maybe it's all but disappeared!...

And the little old lady doesn't even have to be Japanese. My mother - a little old Jewish lady in Florida - did bonsai for over 30 years. She died in February - and this is one of her bonsai - perhaps 25 years old - that was donated to the Morikami Museum in Florida.

Japan has some very lovely traditional arts and applied arts. Cooking and things like the tea ceremony are some. Work with flowers - plants and gardens are another. If my mother can do them in Florida - you can do them too! Robyn

[nuppe]

I try to put down some words about the difference between the food culture in Kansai and Kanto. But I still don't get it: What could be said to be the most important differences/contrasts between the two regions? What is the reason, and why do these position/contrasts seem to last? (I think they do)

[Hiroyuki]

The main reason is that the water in Kansai is softer than the water in Kanto.

The softer the water, the more dashi you can get from kombu.

Another reason is that Kansai culture is that of noblemen, who did little manual labor and therefore did not require much salt, whereas Kanto culture is that of bushi (samurai), who did a lot of manual labor and therefore required much salt.

[nuppe]

Very interesting. Actually I didn't know about the dashi difference. How do you taste it?

[Route246]

Hiroyuki-san,

Thank you for discussing this. Even my wife (from Yamanashi) did not know about the softer water. She knew about the salt and stronger taste, though.

The main reason is that the water in Kansai is softer than the water in Kanto.

The softer the water, the more dashi you can get from kombu.

Another reason is that Kansai culture is that of noblemen, who did little manual labor and therefore did not require much salt, whereas Kanto culture is that of bushi (samurai), who did a lot of manual labor and therefore required much salt.

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