Zagat 2005

[bloviatrix]

The 2005 Zagat Survey has been released. Which means it's time for the annual bloodsport of criticism to begin.

This year's top restaurant is Gramercy Tavern with Union Square Cafe coming in second. Numbers three through eight are Le Bernardin, Bouley, Daniel, Sushi Yasuda, Nobu Next Door and Nobu.

I know that here on eg the only thing Zagat is thought to be good for is that it's a comprehensive phone book. But what are your thoughts on this year's survey?

[Pan]

I know that here on eg the only thing Zagat is thought to be good for is that it's a comprehensive phone book.

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And not even needed for that. I've gotten used to using www.superpages.com and no longer keep a paper copy of the Yellow Pages.

[jogoode]

The 2005 Zagat Survey has been released.  Which means it's time for the annual bloodsport of criticism to begin. 

This year's top restaurant is Gramercy Tavern with Union Square Cafe coming in second.  Numbers three through eight are Le Bernardin, Bouley, Daniel, Sushi Yasuda, Nobu Next Door and Nobu.

I know that here on eg the only thing Zagat is thought to be good for is that it's a comprehensive phone book. But what are your thoughts on this year's survey?

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I'm surprised that the enthusiasm for Nobu hasn't worn off by now.

[Fat Guy]

That's the whole point of what so many critics of Zagat have pointed out, and which William Grimes labeled "The Zagat Effect." The enthusiasm is persistent because, as Grimes summarized, once a restaurant gets a good rating, “diners flock to it . . . and, convinced that they are eating at a top-flight establishment, cannot bring themselves to believe otherwise.”

[Jaybert41]

All things considered, word is that Per Se scored 29 in three catagories. A first for Zagat.

[oakapple]

This year's top restaurant is Gramercy Tavern with Union Square Cafe coming in second.  Numbers three through eight are Le Bernardin, Bouley, Daniel, Sushi Yasuda, Nobu Next Door and Nobu.

I know that here on eg the only thing Zagat is thought to be good for is that it's a comprehensive phone book. But what are your thoughts on this year's survey?

←

I'm a little confused at the moment. I checked the Zagat website, and as Jaybert indicated, Per Se has scored 29-29-29. If indeed this is unprecedented (and I believe it is), then I do not see how a list of Zagat's top eight could exclude Per Se.

[dfq]

A recent post on MUG gives some insight into Zagats Surveys from a former editor:

...Editors, most of whom have never been to the restaurant in question, cherry-pick the most lively comments and string them into a single sentence (though semi-colons get around that limitation). An editor must reflect the numbers that a restaurant has received: if a restaurant scores 27s, you're not going to see anything in the way of negative comments (even if there are a sizeable number), except perhaps for price, whereas a restaurant that has 18 points, must contain some negative quotes. Nearly everything in between ends up with that yes/but construction, so restaurant X is fine, but it's too crowded, or too noisy, or too expensive, or too funky, or the waiters are wannabe actors, or it's hard to get a table.

Edited October 19, 2004 by dfq (log)

[KatieLoeb]

The only thing in Zagat worth reading are the "comments we couldn't print" section of their website. Some of that stuff is hilarious and undoubtedly penned by eGulleteers.

Lookee Here

[Mulcahy]

I'm a little confused at the moment. I checked the Zagat website, and as Jaybert indicated, Per Se has scored 29-29-29. If indeed this is unprecedented (and I believe it is), then I do not see how a list of Zagat's top eight could exclude Per Se.

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There is a note at the end of the Per Se rating that says: "N.B. but for the low number of surveyors who have succeeded in getting a reservation, per se’s ratings would make it No. 1 for Food, Decor and Service in this guide."

[marcus]

This year's top restaurant is Gramercy Tavern with Union Square Cafe coming in second.  Numbers three through eight are Le Bernardin, Bouley, Daniel, Sushi Yasuda, Nobu Next Door and Nobu.

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Are these the ratings for food or for popularity? I assume popularity. If food, it would be a true travesty.

[bloviatrix]

There is a note at the end of the Per Se rating that says: "N.B. but for the low number of surveyors who have succeeded in getting a reservation, per se’s ratings would make it No. 1 for Food, Decor and Service in this guide."

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This leads me to ask the age old question "what do they consider a statistically significant sample size?"

Edited October 19, 2004 by bloviatrix (log)

[cevapcici]

Per Se didn't have enough votes to qualify for this year's edition so that's why they are not listed. But, yes, from what I've heard, they did get 29s on all categories.

[Bux]

Are these the ratings for food or for popularity?  I assume popularity.  If food, it would be a true travesty.

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You have two choices. You can assume the public has knowledge of the restaurants and a degree of taste and critical judgment and therefore view each edition as a survey of restaurants, or you can assume you have the required knowledge, taste and critical judgment and view this as a suvey of popular taste. Of course it doesn't accurately reflect the public taste as much as it reflects the taste of those of like to fill out surveys.

[albie]

So I see that Il Mulino gets a 27 food rating; it's always puzzled me that Zagat lionize the place, yet it seems to never elicit much comment, much less praise from anyone else. Having eaten there twice-- the second time to determine whether my disappintment over the first experience was an anomaly -- I fail to see the justification for so high a rating.

Granted, there's a definite commitment to quality in the produce/ingredients and the portions are robust; but the the menu is for the most part unimaginative --a lackluster litany of standard Italian-Italian-American standbys-- all decently executed but with no discernible inclination to innovate or to satisfy the public's current fascination with exploring authenticity and regionality in Italian food.

Add to that the noisy, overcrowded ambience and exorbitant prices, it's a mystery to me that such a place can thrive, much less survive, in a city that boasts such alternatives as Babbo, Felidia, San Domenico, San Pietro, L'Impero, etc. etc.

[Bux]

the the menu is for the most part unimaginative --a lackluster litany of standard Italian-Italian-American standbys

Some people like that.

Add to that the noisy, overcrowded ambience and exorbitant prices,

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Some people like that too. Zagat adequately represents what some people like and it does so in a democratic manner that avoids all consideration in regard to their qualification to influence your decision on where to eat. Would you go to Yankee stadium tonight to see a couple of dozen guys from the streets of NY and Boston whose only qualification was an interest in baseball? Would you pay to see them play?

[oakapple]

Are these the ratings for food or for popularity? I assume popularity. If food, it would be a true travesty.

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I don't see where you get "travesty" from that. Of the top eight restaurants mentioned, there are two four-star and six three-star places (per the NYT). While that might not be my own list of the top eight—or yours—it's not a travesty. A travesty would be Olive Garden #1, Ruby Tuesday #2, and TGI Friday's #3.

[gmi3804]

The most "popluar" restaurants overall tend to be of the Olive Garden/Red Lobster variety. Would those who frequent (and love) those places go through the effort to review other places for Zagat? I wonder just how diverse the Zagat votership is.

Edited October 19, 2004 by gmi3804 (log)

[jbonne]

There is a note at the end of the Per Se rating that says: "N.B. but for the low number of surveyors who have succeeded in getting a reservation, per se’s ratings would make it No. 1 for Food, Decor and Service in this guide."

and this is standard policy for Zagat -- their top lists are, i believe, always compiled only using restaurants that get a high number of entries. can be sliced either way: they're preventing ballot-stuffing, or they're barring little-known gems from shining. (given the hoardes that are likely to descend, that may not be such a tragedy.)

i'm shocked by Nobu -- though i haven't eaten there in over four years. when last i did, i was amazed by how much of a nosedive it had taken. either it's made a miraculous recovery, or it's a sign of what i'll call the "Wild Ginger effect."

Wild Ginger, for those not familiar with Seattle, is a wildly popular New Asian palace that serves some decent satays and a lot of passable fusion -- though that popularity is stronger among tourists and the Northwest equivalent of the B&T crowd.

it's also a perennial No. 1 pick in Seattle Zagat, which i always took less as a sign of its intrinsic quality than an indicator of its popularity among not-quite-foodies. ultimately, this signaled to me that Zagat's rating system -- in Seattle, at least -- had fallen off the wagon.

while i'm really hoping the Nobu thing isn't an indicator of a spreading Wild Ginger effect, i suspect it is.

[daisy17]

I don't see where you get "travesty" from that. Of the top eight restaurants mentioned, there are two four-star and six three-star places (per the NYT). While that might not be my own list of the top eight—or yours—it's not a travesty. A travesty would be Olive Garden #1, Ruby Tuesday #2, and TGI Friday's #3.

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Seriously. Thanks Oakapple - I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Todd36]

Nobu is still perceived as hip; its still the number one place that downtown summer lawfirm associates want to go to (many of when are from out of town). Zagat's is a democracy, and reflects popular taste to some extent. I think the most popular Zagat's places combine some or all of the following attributes:

1. At least good food (I don't like Nobu but it isn't that bad).

2. Recoginization from another review source (like the NYT).

3. A certain degree of hipness (my guess is that most Zagat's voters are under age 50 and like pretty things).

4. Approachability. A "normal" sushi place like Tomoe as opposed to a sushi place that serves Mantis Shrimp (which I don't like BTW) and other odd things as part of its normal menu.

5. Often, a pretty dining room.

6. A place where the rich and famous can be seen.

Based on my own experience, places that get more than a 20 from Zagat's always seem to have at least decent food, maybe not great food, but at least decent food. In that sense, Zaget's is useful because it covers things the NYT doesn't (it also seems to be thicker this year; maybe they included more places). I don't think Zagat's is that useful for determing what the best places are, it reflects general tastes.

[Pan]

Zagat's is a democracy, and reflects popular taste to some extent.

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If it were really a democracy, wouldn't it reflect an absolute majority of all voters' preferences, knowledgeable or otherwise? Zagat is not really a democracy, as Fat Guy and others have pointed out.

[Todd36]

If it were really a democracy, wouldn't it reflect an absolute majority of all voters' preferences, knowledgeable or otherwise? Zagat is not really a democracy, as Fat Guy and others have pointed out.

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You think and/or know that they throw out votes?

For what it's worth, a Japanese friend of mine saw Tim Zagat speak last year to a small group at the Japan society and he said his strongly disagreed with the Zagat rankings of Japanese places.....

[Pan]

You think and/or know that they throw out votes?

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That's not my point, though I personally know of one restaurant that bribes or bribed people to vote for it. My point is that a turnout of 3% of your respondants voting in any way on a particular place - well, is that analogous to an election in which virtually all voters vote one way or the other for President, let's say? Supposing one restaurant is rated by 200 people and another by 12.

Also, if you haven't read Fat Guy's article on Zagat, I recommend it. One issue stated that a place was "better than its rating."

[Mulcahy]

This leads me to ask the age old question  "what do they consider a statistically significant sample size?"

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This quote is from Florence Fabricant's Food Stuff column in today's New York Times: "And though fewer than 100 surveyors rated Per Se in the Time Warner Center — normally not enough to count under Zagat's standards — it received the highest marks ever for a New York restaurant: three 29's, for food, décor and service."

Fewer than 100 in a city of 7 million strikes me as very statistically insignificant.

[oakapple]

My point is that a turnout of 3% of your respondants voting in any way on a particular place - well, is that analogous to an election in which virtually all voters vote one way or the other for President, let's say? Supposing one restaurant is rated by 200 people and another by 12.

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But if you look at the actual ratings, they're generally defensible. You don't have some dinky trattoria getting rated 27, with Jean Georges rated 22. In general, the restaurants with very high Zagat ratings are the restaurants we think of as being among New York's best. We may quibble with some of the ratings here & there, but we do that even when they're assigned by professional critics at the Times.