ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)

[Fat Guy]

I guess this really divides into two issues: Plotnicki's criticisms of Ducasse, and the American media's criticisms of Ducasse. They seem pretty much unrelated, except on the matter of the pens (I will never understand why these pens, which I thought were charming and elegant, have engendered so much contempt), although I suppose it is possible that unconsciously the critics thought what Plotnicki thinks but they chose to write something completely different.

Let me dispense with the media's criticism of Ducasse, because it is so easy to dispense with: It was uninformed. It was malicious. It was incoherent. It was full of politics, double standards, and everything save for serious analysis of food. It has pretty much been disowned and discredited.

Regarding the Plotnicki criticisms, I see three of them.

First, the pen problem. As I've stated, I can't imagine how this becomes an objection. I mean, fine, you don't favor a choice of pens, or knives, or different kinds of water. But to hold this against Ducasse to such a great extent just doesn't make sense to me. As I've written before, one would need to have a preexisting axe to grind with Ducasse for these things to be perceived as offensive.

Second, that Ducasse is a culinary fraud, like Charlie Trotter. Putting aside that I think Charlie Trotter's is a terrific restaurant (it's one of the two or three best meals I've had in North America outside of New York), and putting aside that my meal at Ducasse in Paris is the single best meal I've ever had in a restaurant (to refine that statement, it is the best first meal I've had, because of course when you dine at a place 20 times you get into a whole different level of dining), and leaving aside that I visited Ducasse in New York a couple of days after it opened and thought it had set a new standard, and that several return visits over the past year or so have convinced me it is the best restaurant in America and one of the best in the world. Leaving all that aside, I'm perfectly happy to accept a difference of opinion on how good Ducasse's restaurants are. But to categorize him as a fraud, or at least as someone undeserving of accolades? I can't see going that far. He represents the best of a certain kind of cuisine. It's possible not to favor that kind of cuisine. Heck, I don't particularly favor it because I'm young and impulsive and I like challenging food of the Gagnaire variety. The Jean Georges variety, too (though I find the food at Jean Georges to be uninventive by the standard Vongerichten set for himself years ago -- I acknowledge Jean Georges as one of the handful of best restaurants in America, even though I've never had a meal at Jean Georges that compared to my early meals at Jo Jo). But I acknowledge that it is the best of what it is, and that dining at a Ducasse restaurant is just about the most refined restaurant experience available on planet Earth.

Third, there is this notion of Ducasse not being a real New York restaurant. I agree. In many ways I think this is exactly the point of Ducasse. There are a number of reasons why the best restaurants in New York have traditionally been inferior to the best restaurants in Europe: The multiple sittings, the inferior service, etc. I think at one point I had a list of six things that make every Michelin two-star restaurant in France better than every restaurant in New York. And I want to stress that multiple sittings limits the quality of cuisine -- not just the experience. Ducasse to me is an attempt to remedy that imbalance. It is a restaurant that has one foot in New York and one foot in the Michelin universe. I think it is quite successful on both fronts. But even were it a total transplant, I wouldn't see that as a valid objection. It has been a long time since Michelin three-star dining in France has been a local, regional experience. It is a universal, international one. In many ways that is the whole point of it: to be a synthesis first of the regional cuisines of France and, today, of that national cuisine with the other great cuisines of the world. Having Ducasse in New York -- where French cuisine and service are firmly established traditions -- doesn't seem nearly as jarring to me as having Taillevent in Japan. Nor does it bother me that New York has great Japanese restaurants. I'm glad there will always be some quirky regional restaurants, especially in Italy, that can never be replicated elsewhere. But I certainly don't find that kind of uniqueness essential to the enjoyment of fine dining.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steven – I’m honored to be worthy of my own strain of Ducasse criticism :).

The pen problem is just a metaphor for the place being more attentive to cosmetic details than they were to substantive details about the entire dining experience. If everything else had been perfect, it would have caused less of a to do. But when everything was less than perfect, the critics latched onto the pens. From my perspective the pens were just something to point to that demonstrated that they were attuned to the wrong types of details. They needed to expend their efforts making people feel comfortable. The pens only made people feel more uncomfortable and it served to highlight how they didn’t understand their customers. This issue segue ways into the entire International/Michelin style vs New York style debate. I think that it’s a huge issue. Let me try and do my best to explain it.

I never eat at any of the top French restaurants in London. I’ve never been to Gavroche, Nico, Koffman etc. Why? Because I am usually on my way to or from France and I don’t want to eat the same exact food I would be served in France. But I have gone to Marco Pierre White a few times because my perceptions about him were different. He appeared to be making an original statement <I>that was unique to his environment</I>. The others could have been 2 star, possibly 3 star restaurants anywhere in France. The statement they seemed to be making had more to do with the wealth of London than anything else. Marco’s statement appeared to include its vibrancy.

Now you might not find this an issue when you dine out but it is a huge one to me. It’s like going to a New York style steakhouse in London. Why do it? I don’t care if they serve the best NY Strip Steaks around. It’s not why I dine there. But I’d be very happy to travel to Lillingoth to have the Angus Beef at the Champanny Inn. I’ve never had it but, I’m sure it expresses something local with just one bite.

This problem is not something a chef can overcome only through the use of local ingredients. You have to understand those ingredients in their proper context. Thomas Keller can take local Oysters and combine them with tapioca and come up with his classic Oysters & Pearls dish. Ducasse using the same ingredients would have missed that boat. He would have tried to take local oysters and express them as if they had come from Brittany. The chasm caused by this approach is measured by how zealous the local cogniscenti is about their cuisine. And we are zealous. So given the opportunity, everyone made Ducasse pay dearly for that blunder.

I think that great restaurants are a good combination of the chef’s expressions and who their diners are. The successful chefs somehow seem to combine what they need to express with what their customers want to, and are capable of tasting. Hey, just like great musicians. I don’t get that from Ducasse. And in my one meal at Trotters 12 years ago, I didn’t get it either. Now they might both be capable of it but I have to admit that I run into quite a few people who feel the same way about it.

I’m wasn’t sure how to end this but reading it back before posting made me remember the rest of the conversation I had with the chef I ran into at KAL. This is someone who had worked at many of the top places in town. They said the real difference between a place like Ducasse and another one of the top rated places in town is how discriminating they are in preparing the food. If someone at Ducasse is preparing a chicken, and does the teeniest thing wrong, it gets thrown out and they start again. It HAS to be perfect. But at any other place in NYC, the chef will come over, look at it, and 90% of the time suggest a solution to save it. And the compromised version gets served. Now that’s what you are paying the extra โ a meal for. Personally, I don’t think it’s worth it. But more than that, I'd rather have it delicious than perfect and too many people feel that Ducasse when given the choice, opted for the look and feel over the taste. To me, that was his biggest blunder. And once again, the approach to how one solves that type of problem is a metaphor for the daily life. Insisting on straightening everyone's tie so it lies perfectly isn't the best approach in a town that is getting out of the habit of wearing them.

(Edited by Steve Plotnicki at 10:01 am on Dec. 23, 2001)

(Edited by Steve Plotnicki at 10:40 am on Dec. 23, 2001)

[Steve Klc]

Robert--I say it's Ducasse and Adria vying for the top spot in worldwide pre-eminence--not necessarily for "creativity"--based on my personal, subjective feeling from being in the industry--talking to other chefs, reading their books, and reading knowledgeable assessments of others.  I realize fully how speculative and unproveable this statement might be.

You have written elsewhere about your admiration for Bras and his scientific approach--which you know that I share--but I disagree respectfully with you when it comes to assessing Bras' significance and relevance in light of Ferran.  Yes, Ferran also is methodical and scientific in his approach--but my sense is that Ferran has already transcended Bras creatively and that Ferran's significance worldwide has only scratched the surface.  But what a scratch.

And let's not forget Bux:  El Bulli may be in the sticks but Ferran has resonated in the European community for a decade, with numerous icons of French cooking taking note publicly.  As I've written elsewhere, some of Charlie Trotter's and Thomas Keller's best ideas have come from their exposure to Ferran.  To knowing observers, Ferran has always been so much more than a one-trick-pony--talk about a specific technique, like foam or a specific dish--limits one's appreciation of Ferran and reveals the inherent limitation of the observer.

Outside of Europe, Adria has hit mainstream: remember Time magazine named Ferran one of its "top 100 innovators," across all fields and Gourmet magazine picked both Ducasse and Ferran for that trading card business.  And the fact that he is "in the sticks"--and has managed to attract so much attention from knowledgeable industry sources and other chefs--just furthers my position.

He may seem outside of the mainstream, but I'd argue that's not really the case.

And, I am not sure if this has been reported elsewhere or is common knowledge--but I have been told that Ritz-Carlton negotiated with Ferran last year to bring him aboard to revamp their entire culinary footprint nationwide--and install a restaurant in the new Ritz in NYC--but that both sides could not agree on the right figure.

And I'm with Steven, once again, in feeling that AD/NY has been subject to misinformed media criticism.  I don't find the criticism that "AD/NY does not feel like it was a NY restaurant" as a valid one.  It is a Ducasse experience--a Ducasse restaurant.  If Ferran were to open a restaurant in NYC, does anyone think it should be assessed as a "NY restaurant?"  Of course it shouldn't.

And stressing the primacy of local ingredients is overblown.  What's more important is that the chef know how to use the ingredients at his disposal and has the talent and mind to express what he is trying to create.  Ferran did a frozen corn "powder" that was light as air, made in the Pacojet with canned cream corn--and paired it with truffle-infused olive oil and a parmesan water gelatin.  He felt it expressed better what he was aiming for than if he had used locally sourced fresh corn.  Why should that be criticized if the dish is interesting and amazing?

Some chefs allow themselves and their significance to be defined by their region or locale.  Some transcend it.  I'd suggest Ducasse and Adria have transcended it.

[Fat Guy]

I think the commandment "thou shall use only the freshest local ingredients" is a good general rule, one that if adhered to, even in part, would improve the cuisine of nearly every chef in the world. But there are those chefs who operate on a whole different level -- call them the alchemists -- and they are trying to create wholly unprecedented flavors through inventive combinations of ingredients and techniques. Most chefs will fail miserably in these efforts. But the ones that succeed should be forgiven the occasional use of a canned vegetable. After all, everybody knows that if you want to make great cornbread you add a can of creamed corn to the batter.

And of course, on an ingredient-by-ingredient basis, if a conscientious taste comparison reveals that something imported, or out-of-season, or preserved, or otherwise not fresh and local (or just cheaper) happens to taste better, I say use it.

It might help to pause here to pick on Jean Georges a bit. Not that I have much against Jean Georges, but Plotnicki holds it out as the paragon of French New York dining, and I agree that it is. It is certainly the most New Yorkish of the four-star places. Jean-Georges knows his audience. But here's a situation in which I'd love to see more local ingredients put into use. If it comes to Jean-Georges versus Ducasse for who uses the most local ingredients, Ducasse wins hands down. Jean Georges serves baby garlic soup year-round for crying out loud. Where do you think the restaurant is getting cauliflower from every day of the year? Some of it must come from Neptune. And I do not think these ingredients taste great year round, even though I'm sure Jean Georges uses the best suppliers. They are superior in season, but Vongerichten doesn't seem to care enough to pull these items from the menu when they're not at their best. That's a shame. You'd never see that happen at Ducasse. I get a new thematic, seasonal menu in the mail from Ducasse every few weeks, it seems.

There are problems at every restaurant. As a critic I can name 50 things wrong with any meal I've ever had (maybe only 25 at some of the three-stars in France). But of course you don't go writing that the fork was crooked when the table was set, or that the toilet paper in the bathroom hadn't been changed quickly enough, or whatever. You look at the overall worth of the place and you omit mention of minor flaws unless those flaws taken together rise to the level of serious negligence. So if I'm writing about Jean Georges, I may mention that the kitchen should focus more on seasonality, but I'm not going to say, "Vongerichten is a bad chef because he serves young garlic soup out of season." It seems to be the consensus of food writers that great chefs be granted limited immunity from this sort of transgression (I think it was Hal Rubenstein who, when he reviewed Jean Georges for New York magazine, wrote something along the lines of, "Is Jean Georges a good restaurant? Can Babe Ruth hit?"). Which is why I can't see hating Ducasse for any of the little things he's done, especially since most of them have only been in the pursuit of better service. To resent him for trying to bring a Michelin three-star experience to New York strikes me as perverse, as though it's the complaint of a self-hating New Yorker who thinks we don't deserve the best.

Ducasse is not an innovator on the Adria level, or even on the Jean Georges level. As I think I said before, his brand of innovation mostly serves the goal of refinement. It is not a departure. So I would think Ducasse would be best advised to look locally for the core of his cuisine in any particular restaurant.

The thing is, he does. I assume we're all familiar, at least by name, with Ducasse's book, Harvesting Excellence, which is his homage to North American ingredients. He seems to believe honestly that we have world-class stuff here, and in some cases he has I believe gone on record saying an American or Canadian (or South American) product is better than its European equivalent.

His restaurant in Monte Carlo looks south. His restaurant in Paris is firmly Parisian. And his restaurant in New York tries to adapt to New York. Indeed, of the three critics I can recall who actually made a comparison of ADP and ADNY (Grimes, Cuozzo, Greene), their complaint was specifically not that ADNY was the same as ADP. It was just the opposite: They complained that Ducasse was trying to adapt the experience for New Yorkers, and that this was somehow patronizing. But I'll stop picking on the critics, because Plotnicki has much more coherent arguments than they ever did.

I don't begrudge Plotnicki holding the opinion that Ducasse isn't all he's cracked up to be. He bases it on good information and experience. I think he's wrong, but he's got a rational position. But by way of explanation, let me just say that Ducasse is very big on the totality of the dining experience. He doesn't see appearance and taste, service and taste, decor and taste, as different things. He sees them as all one thing. He doesn't believe that ugly food is suitable for presentation in his restaurants. And I don't think this is because he sacrifices quality for the sake of appearances. I think it is because he believes that appearance is an essential element of quality.

Which brings us back to the pens. I would agree that it would be ridiculous for McDonald's or even Gramercy Tavern to offer a selection of pens. But Ducasse is all about connoisseurship. As somebody who, when I had more money, collected fountain pens, I can say that to the aficionado a pen is more than a plastic thing with which you affix your signature to documents. It is something that, when held in the hand, brings pleasure. And a knife, to those who are into knives, is a small work of art with a secondary utilitarian purpose of cutting stuff. Likewise, a fine watch is not just about keeping time -- otherwise we'd all wear Casio G-Shocks rather than Rolexes, because a G-Shock keeps much better time. Come to think of it, I do wear a G-Shock, but if I could afford a truly fine Swiss watch I'd certainly own one. A car is not just about transportation. You get the idea. I find it hard to fault that kind of thinking, especially in the context of a restaurant that is trying to push the edge of the hedonistic luxury dining envelope.

I am quite certain, though I've not discussed this with Ducasse, that if societal mores did not forbid it, he would be the first chef to add massage and perhaps sexual stimulation to the after-dinner menu. I don't mean that as an insult. He is very serious about pleasure.

Finally, what do we have to say about Japanese restaurants in New York? Do we think they should be done away with, so that a trip to Japan is required to experience world class sushi? Or are we glad for Sushi Yasuda, and Kuruma Zushi, and Jewel Bako? Or is Nobu the only legitimate American incarnation of the Japanese restaurant? Mind you, these places are the worst offenders when it comes to using local ingredients. They exist totally divorced from place. They can be in Tokyo, New York, or Aspen. It matters not, because most everything comes via FedEx.

[robert brown]

Having seen two Ducasse kitchens, Moustiers and Monaco go down the tubes, or at least lose their consistency, I have to wonder if the Ducasse  will hold up. Remembering Gagnaire’s telling me that after he is gone two days his kitchen starts to slip, perhaps we ought to wait before getting too excited. It is possible that the world-wide recession will curb Ducasse’s insatiable appetite for empire building anyway. However, I believe that Ducasse does need a New York restaurant, and I’m of the feeling that if at all possible, he would like an LA one, a Chicago one, a SF one, etc. I think that’s really what “his” book on American ingredients was about, and a lousy book it was since profiles about food artisans strikes me as a cop-out way to enlighten people about what grows and gets produced in the USA. I believe the media last year was sending him a message in that regard and letting him know that if you’re not going to be among us most of the time, you will have to show us that you can get it right both in terms of cuisine and in all matters of taste. According to Grime, he heeded the message and got it right.

I would like to know what a New York restaurant is, how it is supposed to feel, and how they fit into the local culture. People can and do open up any kind of restaurant they want, and as far as French people and restaurants go, it’s been happening since Henri Soule in 1939  (I wonder if Le Pavilon was in its day as ambitious and markedly different as the Ducasse is now; I suspect it was). To me, a classic New York restaurant is Peter Lugar’s and Katz’s. If there were a Horn & Hardart left, that would be one, too. After that, anything goes as far as I’m concerned, as New York’s gastronomic profile is made up of neighborhoods, its diversity of cuisines, and the coming and going of individual restaurants.

Steve K: My one-line post was meant to be not an expression of opinion, but more along the lines of “who is to say?”, or,“what makes you so sure of your pronouncement and what is it based on?”. I have to wonder if your profession has anything to do with your championing of Adria, given that his approach to savoury dishes seems to resemble that of a dessert man. Would you please expand on your remarks about local ingredients?. They are something that drives my preference for provincial gastronomy and my love of eating in Italy. The more or longer an ingredient has to travel, the more concerned I become regardless of self-serving people telling me it’s been put in this, taken off the boat or the airplane five minutes ago, etc.  

[robert brown]

Steven, even Sushi restaurants in Japan use Fed Ex for our tuna, among other fish.  I don't need to think of how to express what it is like eating Japanese food in Japan, Thai food in Thailand, or Italian food in Italy. Cole Porter did it for us when he wrote "All of You".

[Fat Guy]

I would love for just one critic to write, "You know what? I was wrong about Ducasse. I just didn't get the place when it opened, because I wasn't familiar with what Michelin three-star dining is all about, and the subtlety of Ducasse's quiet perfectionism was lost on me. I've been back a few times and received more of an education at the hands of the master, and now I get it. Please forgive me for making so many uninformed and undeserved criticisms of the world's preeminent chef." But of course nobody will write that. They'll say that Ducasse changed something. But it is extremely difficult to document any actual, major, relevant changes at ADNY since opening day. There has been a slight upward curve in quality on all fronts, as is the case of just about every successful restaurant in the history of the world during it's first year. The pens and knives have been eliminated. Those hardly seem enough to proclaim a reversal of strategy. It's not about Ducasse changing; it's about the critics saving face.

[robert brown]

Steven, congratulations for sticking to your guns (and knives and pens.) Seriously, it is nice to see our guy proven accurate. It would be interesting to know if you have compared the two Grimes reviews and could comment on or annotate them for us.

(Edited by robert brown at 3:18 pm on Dec. 23, 2001)

[Fat Guy]

I never thought to read his two reviews side by side. I wonder if I even still have the old one around. If I do, I'll do a quick comparison. My suspicion, though, is that he was very careful in reconciling the two. He's no dummy. And I think he believes what he wrote in both. He'd probably be insulted at the suggestion that there could have been any other agenda. And I think in his case there may not have been a particularly strong one. His early review, and Gold's in Gourmet, were actually the two most fair (that's not saying they were right, just that they were a lot less wrong than the others) of the major reviews. Okay, that's enough speculation. I'll try to have a look later.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steven Shaw - I think Robert makes the point well about sushi. There is nothing to stop it from tasting the same here as it does there. Sushi is a cuisine of texture with subtle differentiations in flavor. I think the burden of presenting Grade A tuna is far less of a burden than cooking a Bresse Chicken properly, and knowing how to adjust if the next day the chicken is from the Landes. If Georges Blanc had to switch to chickens from the Landes, I bet you he would have to somehow adjust his Poulet Bresse avec Creme recipe. So Ducasse could use all of the local ingredients he can find. But he hasn't impressed me that he really knows anything about them. Trotter by the way impresses me as being the same. Acrobatic cooking skills but lacking the pizzazz that expresses the local terroir (to borrow a phrase from the wine world.) Mind you, I would be the first person to admit that you can get a wonderful meal at Ducasse. But I will probably find it less than completely satisfying for this reason.

Robert Brown - Gee I think Daniel & Jean- Georges rock to the beat of this city. I think Danny Meyer's restaurants are less good at it. They make me feel like lots of out of towners are there.  Olive's in the W Hotel feels like it could be in Indianapolis. Yet Olive's in Charlestown feels unmistakingly Boston. And DB, Daniel's new casual place does not have a NY feel to it. It could be the dining room of any contemporary boutique hotel in any major European city (save for London) that has a thriving art and fashion business.

If you haven't read it already, you should pick up a copy of Patick Kuh's book "The Last Days of Haute Cuisine." While the book is wanting in many respects, it does a very good job of describing how the Soules and Soltners of the world created a more casual version of a classic French restaurant while maintaining an air of formality.

But this quote from Steven Shaw sums it up the best.

"<i>To resent him for trying to bring a Michelin three-star experience to New York strikes me as perverse, as though it's the complaint of a self-hating New Yorker who thinks we don't deserve the best. </i>"

But why should we applaud him anymore than we would applaud any other chain for invading our turf? Do we applaud Hilton Hotels for bringing us the same exact installation they have everywhere else? What makes us a great city is the same thing that makes London, Paris and a few other places great cities. One of the ways we express the vitality and vibrancy of our daily life is through the food we eat. And maybe that's what lessens the Ducasse experience for me. It's more about him accomplishing it, than it is him noticing something about my life and reducing it to a dish. And I guess that is where the accusations of arrogance come from.

This conversation made me dig up the review I wrote and posted on a few wine boards after eating at ADNY. Maybe it will add something to the conversation.

"<i>Date: Wed Apr 18 10:43:35 2001

Around about the time that it became known that Alain Ducasse was opening his New York restaurant; friends of mine began asking me how I was going to wangle a reservation. It didn’t take me long to figure out how to do it. Within a few days of being challenged, I found the answer was no further away than my mailbox. For it was there on a Monday in July that I went to get my mail and much to my surprise, Alain Ducasse had sent me a letter inviting me to make a reservation. Ah, he and I were going to be on good terms. I immediately booked a table for my wife’s birthday that September.

But then after they actually opened we started hearing not such good things. We heard tales of mediocre food as well as stories of frightening cost. And so it came to be that we gave our table for six away and we did our celebrating at Daniel instead.

But I had not written it off completely. I was certain that our paths would cross again. It was just a matter of time before I got an invite, or an out of town guest wanted to go. Well it finally happened. And it was neither of the above that did the trick. What finally moved us was another clever mailing from Mr. Ducasse. This one listed two menus they were serving for the spring. A special Asparagus and Morel menu and a Shellfish menu. Both looked awfully tasty and since my wife is a big fan of asparagus, we decided to take the plunge.

We arrived at 8:00 and were seated immediately. There is only one seating each evening (at least that is what we were told) and until parties are complete, diners can wait in a small but comfortable sitting room or they can choose to go directly to their table which is what we did. Within moments a sommelier appeared (it couldn’t have been more than 30 seconds) and asked us what type of water we wanted. I asked if he had Badoit and he said no. When I told him I have it at home he asked me if it was glass or plastic bottles and upon hearing plastic he said that the water tastes different and they didn’t carry it for that reason. Upon further inquiry of what type they did have, he proceeded to tell me there were thirteen different choices available. As he rattled them off to me including their country of origin, I was amazed at how many I had already had. Finally a new one came along, Alpenrose from Switzerland. They had only begun importing it into the states a month ago. How could I not?

A few minutes later he returned with our water and a wine list. The wine list is separated into two different lists. There is a list; it is more like a carte, of only young wines. There is an additional list of older wines. I can easily describe the list as “staggering” but the prices? Ouch, someone just stick a dagger in my heart. There were pages of wines so I realized I would have to dig in to find the bargains. When one is confronted with a list of this dimension, a bargain can mean something that costs 躔 because it is selling at auction for 񘋰. At first I looked at the Rhone wines and there wasn’t a bargain to be had. I flipped over to Burgundy and there was 1990 Henri Jayer Vosne Romanee Cros Parentoux for, about half the cost at auction. There was also some 1990 Jayer Echezaux at about 70% of the auction price. What was unusual was that they had the ’88 and ’89 vintages of both wines for nearly twice the price. I called the sommelier over and expressed my confusion as to why that might be (after all, isn’t ’90 supposed to be “better”), and he launched into a dissertation of the “magical” qualities of the 1988 vintage. “Monsieur, if you come back thirty years from now zee wine will still be drinking well, zee ’90 I don’t know. He left and I tucked my skepticism away and continued to pour over the list.

Our dining companions arrived and we discussed the wines with them and then I summoned him back. “We will start with the 1996 Coche-Dury Meursault Perrieres and then we will have the Jayer Cros Parentoux.” The ’88 he asked? “No, the ’90, merci.” By now we had two types of Alpenrose water flying around our table, still and sparkling. Shortly thereafter he came over, no bottle in hand and said “Monsieur I am sorry but we have run out of the Coche-Dury.” I immediately switched to my number two choice, which was 1996 Niellon Chassagne-Montrachet Vergers. “Sorry monsieur, it is closed right now and it is not attractive.” After a pitch on his part for a bottle of 1996 Meursault Goutte d’Or from Domaine d’Auvenay which I rejected out of hand, I asked for the list again. I quickly zeroed in on a bottle of 1996 Guy Roulot Meursault Perrieres, which was half the price of the Coche. A few minutes later he arrived to show me the bottle as well as a sticker on the back of the bottle that said it came from the “Cave Privee” of Alain Ducasse. Hoohah. He decanted the bottle, gave me a tiny sip and put it on ice. He returned shortly thereafter with the Jayer which had a tattered label. “It eez my last bottle monsieur and eet comes directly from zee cellar of monsieur Jayer.”

Shortly thereafter they were placing a small soup dish in front of us, which turned out to our Amuse Bouche. It was frothy but you could see small bits of morels sticking out of the center. It turned out to be a Brouillade de Morels which is basically morels and cream. When you put your spoon into the broth you found the entire bottom of the dish was coated with a layer of pureed morels. Sort of like how they would coat a dish with hummus before putting falafel on top. It had the most intense morel flavor which was complimented by the morel infused broth and the spongy crunchiness of the mushrooms themselves. A big bowl of this along with some crusty bread and a bottle of good Chablis would make a great Sunday lunch.

They began setting the table for our first course. My wife and I were having the asparagus to start and they put the strangest device at our place settings. It had two silver rectangles about the width of a cigarette and they were connected by a hinge so it could open and close. Then there were silver bands attached to the top and bottom, one with two rings and one with one. Everyone was looking at them and playing with them until I grabbed them and placed them on my hands and started playing them like castanets. The captain saw he and me ran over. We asked him if it was for the asparagus and he said “but of course, and monsieur (meaning me) you are holding them exactly zee right way. You pick up zee asparagus, dip zee point in zee sauce and take zee bite.” Then it came to me. This was how Moe, Larry and Curly ate asparagus.

1996 Guy Roulot Meursault Perrieres- I’m a fan of this Domaine. He is an underrated producer. But you get what you pay for. This started out very nice, a little fat with a good dose of sweetness. Surprisingly open for a ’96. That decanting must have done it some good. With time it started getting brighter and a little bit cloying. Is this the teeniest bit overripe? But while nice and enjoyable it was ultimately a B effort. Just not enough clarity and delineation of flavors for me. A bit sloppy on the finish and follow through. Good enough to keep the case I have in my cellar but a disappointment especially after I had calibrated my palate for the amazing precision of Coche-Dory 90 points

The asparagus arrived and it was 5 spears with the bottoms cut off and they were sitting in a pool of what appeared to be hollandaise and morel sauce. I took my special asparagus apparatus and dipped a point in the sauce. Just then the captain ran over with a little saucepan and said, “ah monsieur, you must have more sauce” and proceeded to cover the tips in the brown and yellow sauce. The sauce was extremely tasty but the asparagus was a bit of a letdown. When we sat down they had explained that this was the first of the season asparagus, which was hand, picked in California blah, blah. Well I’ll take the stuff that comes from Germany any day. Our next course was an asparagus veloute with morels, Parmesan crisps, some julienne vegetables and an egg (broiled?) atop. First of all the soup was green. You don’t get good green soup often. But it was also an amazing combination of tastes and textures. It seemed like it was getting thicker with every spoonful. This was the best dish of the night.

1990 Henri Jayer Vosne-Romanee Cros Parenthoux- Well, what can I say. I had never had this wine before but I’ve seen people chase it at auctions paying prices into the stratosphere. It was amazingly young for a ’90. Still working on primary fruit, lots of it. There seems to be some “sauvage” lying underneath that fruit though. Some cinammony bramble. It was just an immense wine for a pinot noir, maybe the biggest I’ve ever had save for Ponsot Clos de la Roche and Leroy Beaumonts from the same vintage. And opulent? Sheesh, one of the other diners made rhapsodic noises after each sip. This was drinking perfectly (if you don’t mind primary flavors) but it needs at least another 5 years and could probably last another 10. The sommelier and I had a discussion about it and he wasn’t so sure as he finds that some ‘90’s are starting to turn. 96+ points and those of you who own this wine at the release price should give yourselves a big round of applause.

Up next was a nice sized cube of codfish sitting atop some asparagus spears sitting in an intense sauce of coquillages and topped with what else, some chopped morels. Beautiful lobstery flavor to the sauce and the fish cooked to the point where it was slightly flaky.

This was followed by a veal picatta in the shape of a small platter (like CD size) atop more asparagus and morels. I must admit that we were having trouble getting the food down at this point. The portions were huge for a tasting menu and the food was incredibly rich. I was so stuffed that I had to get up and walk around 56th street to get my second wind.

I came back a few minutes later to find the cheese cart positioned in front of my table. Why bother sitting down? I could just hang with the cheese guy and talk about the choices. They offer a nice selection of mostly French cheeses with some domestic cheeses mixed in. After making my selection (of which the St. Felicien was my favorite), the sommelier came over and offered us a surprise wine to go with our cheese. He returned with a bottle that was draped in metal mesh. He poured this deep blood red colored wine into our glasses and we unsuccessfully tried to guess its origin. I have to say my wife was more interested in the mesh covering which looked like the curtains at the Four Seasons restaurant. After she asked him about it he actually offered her one and I am now the proud owner of the most posh brown bag that will ever be used at a blind tasting.

1997 Arano Recioto Della Valpolicella- Lovely body to this extremely young wine. I love a good recioto because of the taste of the earth. This one was still mostly puppy fat and he predicted that in time it would pick up that earthy quality and a bit of animale. “Like jambon” he said. I never saw this producer before (Luca, Jean Fisch, Helms?) but he said it was extremely difficult to find and that he brought two cases into the U.S (which is all he could get) on a direct import basis. I need to find me some because this will last for eons 93 points and there is a dearth of good red dessert wines.

My dessert was this fantastic concoction of caramel spice cake with caramel ice cream. Just super. It came with an entire box of miniature vanilla and chocolate macaroons and an assortment of homemade chocolates. Then they appeared with a tray of pear, pineapple and strawberry confits de fruits and as if that wasn’t enough, a cart with four different flavored caramels. Pistachio, mango, passion fruit and my favorite, salted butter along with homemade lollipops in two different flavors. A person could bust a gut.

All in all it was quite good, much better than I expected although I have to say I’m not rushing back. It was really serious, more of a 3 star dining experience than I can ever recall having in this country. Though that aspect of it made it seem somewhat out of place. It was more an experience one would have in Paris or London than New York where even the most formal place has been toned down to reflect the more casual mood of the city. And the cost, ugh, out of control. But I can’t say they aren''t trying to offer value for the money. The portions are copious and there is no expense spared in ingredients or preparation. The waitstaff was the best, most professional, friendliest and helpful staff I have come across anywhere. On par with the Connaught Hotel and Taillevent. True pros who are at your beck and call.

What I could never get past is the lack of Ducasse’s presence in the room. I haven’t heard of a single story from anyone about his actually being there . Even a nice painting of the maestro himself hanging in the dining room would help. Maybe if he hadn’t called it by his own name I would feel differently. But without his direct presence felt, it is sort of the same as the places that the top chefs have opened in Vegas and other cities. Kudos to Ducasse if he knows how to box up the formula for a 3 star restaurant and assemble it elsewhere. But it will always be weird to me and I’m not sure I can fully get over it. </i>"

[Fat Guy]

Thanks for posting that review. It seems your opinion of Ducasse lessened since the time you penned that, as it leaves what I consider a mostly favorable impression.

I think the critics, many New Yorkers, and you (Plotnicki) all have one thing in common: You're heavily influenced by the externalities of the Ducasse experience. It seemed to me at the time all the negative press and reactions were coming out that there was a collective resistance, at any cost, to evaluating Ducasse as a restaurant. It always had to be about something else.

It's not unreasonable to look at some factors beyond the food on the plate (the close-in relevant factors like service, as opposed to the purported arrogance of the chef which I find totally irrelevant), but here again I think Ducasse has been hammered for things that other chefs have routinely been forgiven.

Take the not-in-the-kitchen issue. This is a sophisticated audience here on eGullet, so I'll skip my explanation of how the chef doesn't really cook your food anyway. But I did find Gael Greene's take on this to be the most reasonable part of her otherwise insulting review of Ducasse:

Do I really want to believe the chef is personally squirting basil-oil polka dots on my plate? Must the chef of an eminent restaurant be in the kitchen every night? On Tuesday, July 25, at 8:25 p.m., I stop by to see Jean-Georges in his big telltale open kitchen. He's at Vong in London. Daniel Boulud is vacationing in Lyons. At Daniel, his chef de cuisine, Alex Lee, is driving a huge crew to feed a full house and 150 in the private-party room. At Le Bernardin, Eric Ripert is vacationing, too. "We try to be sure one of us is always here," says owner Maguy LeCoze. I follow manager Walter Krajnc through the kitchen of Danube into the kitchen of the Bouley Bakery on the trail of David Bouley -- "He was here just a few minutes ago." "I'm looking for Nobu," I tell the woman at the podium. "I was looking for him myself today," she says. "He's in Tokyo." Only Gotham Bar and Grill's Alfred Portale, deeply tanned from Hampton weekends, is in his kitchen. "You caught me cooking," he says. "We're working on new dishes for the summer menu. I work behind the line every night I'm here, four nights a week, five days." (from New York magazine)

[Steve Klc]

Robert--I'm sorry if it seems I champion Ferran, but believe me, he doesn't need my support.  He is so huge among chefs internationally that we all are late to the party.  It is amazing to me, though, that so many still have no idea what he is all about and that is why I feebly champion him.  You wrote "His approach to savory seems to resemble that of a dessert man."  This most thoughtful inquiry prompted me to ask a question of myself that I have not yet done--my initial off-the-cuff sense is that what I appreciate most about Ferran (and similarly in Philippe Conticini, by the way) is that when they create and compose "desserts"--they think like chefs, and blur the line between sweet and savory--thereby unifying the meal into a more cohesive and more harmonious experience.  Their desserts are much more "a la minute" than a typical French or French-emulating American pastry chef--much less about form and rule (the entire history of "traditional" French pastry is one of rigid adherence to form) and I see Ferran and Philippe as bringing a kind of "line cook" approach to desserts--and in the process rendering completely irrelevant most of the misguided American attempts at architectural plated desserts stemming to the early 90's.  (This is apart from what they're both also doing innovatively with regard to dessert ingredients and exploration of palate.)

Yes there are similar witty deconstruction/postmodernist/reconstruction elements to Ferran's cuisine, but I'd suggest it is the chef and the cuisine that drives the desserts--and is responsible for what I find so liberating.  It is hard to understate the effect I feel this is having worldwide in cooking at the highest levels.

Perhaps you could help me flesh this out Robert by elaborating a bit on how you see Ferran's savory food as like pastry?  Do you see it with Bras?  Bras, by the way, I consider unique among the 3 star French chefs as having a significant grasp of pastry--his desserts have always made sense.  All the others cede much of the spirit and creation of their desserts to their pastry chefs--and their desserts, historically, have lacked in spirit and effort, slightly, in comparison to the cuisine that preceded it.  I've written elsewhere that I consider Bras himself a very significant force behind restaurant plated desserts in France.  Pierre Herme told me recently that "I consider Bras as the only savory Chef who has a real creativity and technical skill in the desserts field."

But apart from this feeling about Adria--which of course is just my very subjective assessment--perhaps one way to approach your one line rhetorical post is by asking which other 3-star chef--if not Adria--would provoke and attract the most international attention--were he to open a restaurant in New York?  I'd suggest no other chef in the world.  Not that Thomas Keller's impending opening, a hypothetical Gagnaire, Veyrat or Bras move would not be significant--it would be hugely significant--but each would pale to the arrival of Ducasse.  (I can already anitcipate the critical refrain of Keller, at one time a New Yorker, not opening a real New York restaurant and his cuisine sufferring from not understanding local ingredients on this side of the country, but that will be a debate down the road.)  Maybe I'm seeing things through rose-colored glasses, but only Adria's arrival could come close to the earth-shaking arrival of Ducasse.

I'll flesh out the local ingredients angle when I get back from the holidays, but basically I think it's become too pat, too much of a de rigueur line now in the US to spout off about ingredients as the be-all and end-all of sophisticated cooking when you don't have the skill, talent, technique, creativity, inspiration and/or sense of refinement in presentation that equals those ingredients.  It's easier for average culinary talents and un-knowing food writers to embrace ingredients than it is to embrace complexity, context, history, technique, significance or relevance.  This might make me a heretic to the Alice Waters-worshipping/Gourmet magazine crowd--but to me it's just too much of a crutch sometimes.  And I do not mean to lessen or denigrate in any way your "preference for provincial gastronomy" and your "love of eating in Italy. "  I appreciate that as well when I am in that context.

[Bux]

I would love for just one critic to write, "You know what? I was wrong ... I just didn't get the place when it opened,

I hate to beat a dead horse, but Daniel got three stars and reservations were as hard to get as at any four star restaurant in town. The food didn't really change, but Grimes came back and said it did, so now he can give it four stars. I'm not sure why he gave it three in the beginning, but at least it made people notice Grimes.

Remembering Gagnaire’s telling me that after he is gone two days his kitchen starts to slip, ...

Or as Loiseau said about his sous chef, "he cooks Loiseau better than I do." The problem with Gagnaire may be that he's a better cook than chef. The chief of the kitchen is an executive position. All responsibility may be delegated and you can leave for a month if you select and train your staff. Of course you need to monitor what is happening just a general needs to know exactly what's happening on the front lines.

(I wonder if Le Pavilon was in its day as ambitious and markedly different as the Ducasse is now; I suspect it was).

I strongly suspect you are correct and that is exactly what makes NYC a great city. It's best efforts are not imitations of what it already has.

"thou shall use only the freshest local ingredients" is a good general rule, one that if adhered to, even in part, would improve the cuisine of nearly every chef in the world.

Klc has already noted the superiority of canned corn in at least one application. The truth is that we have great disdain for canned goods and what we see as over processed food, but who's to say what's over processed. While you may prefer a raw milk Epoisses to one made with pasteurized milk, you certainly don't want raw milk on your plate instead of Epoisses after dinner. Cheese is processed milk and it's certainly not fresh milk. It is in fact milk that's spoiled under very controlled circumstances. ;)

Ducasse is not an innovator on the Adria level

It's generally agreed that he's not, but in truth, it's easy to say he serves dishes that others could not attempt. While I don't know if I could say that about my NY meal, I think I can about my Paris meal. It's also food that's cerebral. It's not that much more delicious, but it's delicious in a way that's difficult tooachieve. You should derive some satisfaction from knowing how hard it is to do that simple thing that's on your plate.

But Ducasse is all about connoisseurship.

Were those pens fountain pens or the ball points necessary to leave a copy? If fountain pens, it's a shame because a good nib needs to conform to the writer. If a ball point, what's to be a connoiseur about? Feh. Service improved when they selected the pen and knife for the diner. If I wanted choice, I'd have expected to see five steaks brought out and have the opportunity to select the one done exactly to my taste in doneness.

But to hold this against Ducasse to such a great extent just doesn't make sense to me.

Or to me either.

... at any other place in NYC, the chef will come over, look at it, and 90% of the time suggest a solution to save it.

Funny, I had a young cook say almost exactly the same thing to me when comparing a famous New Orleans institution in which he had worked to the top NY kitchen he was in now. I think you are both overestimating the differences and how little difference is needed to make a difference.

[Bux]

Klc: I'm sorry if it seems I champion Ferran

Interesting choice of word--champion. This reminds me of a thread sometime ago, maybe on the NY Times site about the necessity (or not) for reviewers and food critics to be unbiased. As I recall, I was in favor of reading only good reviews and nothing was more useful or interesting than reading an intellligently written review by someone who championed a cause, chef or restaurant as long as it was for the right reasons. If the NY Times had four restaurant critics with strongly establshed and differing points of view, it would provide a far better service that it does now with one critic who conveys a sense of personal disinterest in dining out.

I don't know if you will ever convince me that Ferran is a better chef than Veyrat or Bras, but if you continue to write like that, I will understand Ferran's food better and the net effect is that I will bring more to the table and appreciate it better than when I eat at Veyrat or Bras. This is a far greater service than just informing me who's the better chef. No disrespect for Brown here, by the way. He's done a nice job explaining why he respects and admires those he does, particularly the late Chapel.

[Bux]

I think Daniel & Jean- Georges rock to the beat of this city. I think Danny Meyer's restaurants are less good at it.

You're a snob. ;)

That's okay, I've been called worse.

Seriously though, there's a large segment of public eating in NYC between Katz's and Daniel and I suspect most NY diners would credit Danny Meyer for both raising the level of the food available in the upper middle and for raising food consciousness among new diners in the city. I'm not a Zagat fan and don't care about public opinion, but when we're talking about what makes NYC what it is, we have to ask those who live here. I happen to agree with you about many of the other places you name. I also feel that travel is far more boring than it used to be. Homogenization is part of the 21st century. I understand the direction of your argument regarding the "chain" aspect of Ducasse, but luxury chains have to be looked at differently. (Call me a snob, if you will.) NY is dependent on having Cartier, Louis Vuitton, Versace, etc. shops. It's expected of a great city. For Ducasse to open elsewhere and not in NYC, might be a snub. In his interviews he was quite clear that he thought it was a challenge to open in NY.

[robert brown]

Bux, As I think I wrote above in a few words directed at Steve K, I didn't mean to express a qualitative or rank-order judgement about who are the number ones. I guess I tried to imply a tone that didn't come through in words. It was more in the spirit of "how do you/we know"? and "why can't it be "B" instead of "A"?"

[robert brown]

Last night the master chef monopolized my evening without my having to go to, let alone drop a bundle at, Restaurant Alain Ducasse-Croute. The first intrusion came courtesy of the CNN business program “Pinnacle”. While we missed some of the Ducasse segment (perhaps the entire program was devoted to him), we caught enough of it to hear him say that the New York restaurant was like a corporation of which he was the CEO. That certainly made us want to pick up the phone and ask how soon we could get in. Then on the FDR drive en route to Chinatown for a meal at the marvelous, underrated restaurant Dim Sum GoGo, my wife and I got into a heated discussion (not an argument) as to if we should patronize the Ducasse. I felt an almost civic duty to go, especially given my role as consumer advocate to the rich. She said that after our experiences with the Ducasse operations, she never again wanted to set foot in any of his restaurants. She then recalled the various transgressions and disappointments we have suffered at his hands: how, after phoning his Bastide de Moustiers to say we would be late to dinner because we had to stop and claim from the police some effects that someone had stolen from our friends’ car while we were antiquing in L’Isle sur la Sorgue. When we ordered our dinner from the very-limited menu, the squab we had all wanted was sold out, and we had to settle for some tough fricasee of rabbit that was not on the menu and had probably been lying around for some days. That we booked the two most expensive rooms in the hotel did not seem to matter. Then there was the bad meal at the Louis XV a few years ago. Not only were we treated disdainfully and given mediocre food (imagine, for example, a tray of already-prepared petits farcies sitting in a corner of the dining room) but when I made the reservation for eight people a month or so ahead, I received a fax back listing a choice of two no-choice menus saying that because we were more than six people, we had to choose in advance one menu or the other for everyone.. Of course, they backed down on that one after hearing from me rather vociferously.

During the cab ride home we had another lengthy disagreement. I said that Ducasse looked like a friend of ours, while my wife asked me how I could be so wrong. The weird thing is that our friend’s last name is “Kass”. I will have to ask him if there is any shared blood between them. Gosh, do you think Ducasse is maybe ……?

(Edited by robert brown at 2:55 pm on Dec. 24, 2001)

(Edited by robert brown at 2:58 pm on Dec. 24, 2001)

[Fat Guy]

I spoke to Ducasse about you, Robert, and he said, "Oh, the Browns, yes, we have a standing order at all our restaurants that they must be treated poorly. And still they come back. Stupid Americans. Don't tell them this, but I hate them because they're friends with my separated-at-birth good-for-nothing brother who keeps trying to hit me up for cash."

[Bux]

Robert, I understand that this is a very subjective thing. I think I also understand that was pretty much what you were saying. Indeed, as you also imply, the very idea that there is a "best" of breed is in itself questionable. Still that's what we do. It's a nasty habit but humans are always comparing and arguing about who's the best often under "what if" situations.

I think Steve (Klc) makes his case very well, but in the end, it's really a case for his decision and others may a solid argument for why they would give the honor to someone else, or to no one at all.

[robert brown]

Steve K,. Unless there were ersatz herbs, spices and plants growing in some abandoned tenement plot on the Lower East Side, I do not think Michel Bras will be opening any time soon a branch in Manhattan. I realize, however, that your quizzical musings are theoretical. It is hard to know what celebrity European, Middle-American or West Coast chef would have success in New York. Perhaps Alain Ducasse is the only one who might do it. In a way, Thomas Keller has already done it if you count Raquel’s, which was on Varick St. in the 1980s, and which I though was very good, but not a standout. I am sure that the restaurant was not his, either. (Has anyone heard how Medi is doing? No one seems to mention it. It is a restaurant Roger Verger has a hand in.). As for Adria, do you think he has found his optimal creative level being open part of the year, making his place accessible mostly for those diners enthusiastic enough to get there, and devoting a good part of the year in his “atelier’ in Barcelona? (By the way, I have never been there, but made my statement about savories and desserts simply putting together what I have read). And speaking of desserts, I have had several of Bras’s early desserts since I went there several times from when Gault-Millau discovered him around 1985 until my last visit in 1996. And can you tell me, Steve. As the NY Times tried to establish the "authorship of, is Bras responsible for the “moelleux au chocolate” being served in what must be a thousand restaurants worldwide? I wish I could remember the other desserts that I had there).

(Edited by robert brown at 10:50 pm on Dec. 27, 2001)

[robert brown]

Steven S. and anyone else who may want to comment: You notice again in yesterday’s NYT food section another declaration, this one by Grimes, that New York is the best restaurant city in the world (Manhattan he said this time). I’m starting to think (and this hunch is one I have a fair amount of confidence in) that the reason for the Ducasse pans last year fit into my belief that one major job of the New York/National food writers is to hype the notion that NYC is indeed the restaurant capital of the world. I believe that all the people who trashed Ducasse took offense of his coming into town as something like a commuter (as opposed to being a transplant such as Daniel and Jean-Georges, which is okay in the eyes of the critics) and trying to bowl over the local fat cats in one felt swoop. In other words, it was as if they could not allow this French-based interloper to have the best restaurant in town, even if it meant resorting to skewing him for extra-culinary aspects of the restaurant. The one flaw in this argument is why, after a year, Grimes changed his tune and now pretty much says that, indeed, Ducasse has the best restaurant in New York City. That it probably is by far may be perhaps left him no alternative. In the meantime, have other critics come around to his change of mind?

As to the wider issue of what gives anyone the right to declare New York the best restaurant city in the world, (especially someone who is supposed to be spouting informed opinion), what gives them the right to put forth such a concept? Does Grimes think New York chefs have access to the best ingredients? What about Paris? Does New York have the most kinds of cuisines? What about London or Tokyo? Does New York have the most audacious or talented chefs? What about Paris or London? What thoughtful, even-handed or informed restaurant critic would want to write that? Who among us has explored all the significant restaurants of New York, London, Paris and Tokyo? No one, as it is an impossible task.    

[Fat Guy]

Not to mention, Manhattan isn't a city. It's a borough. The city is called New York.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner as I was sunning in South Beach all week.

"<i>I suspect most NY diners would credit Danny Meyer for both raising the level of the food available in the upper middle and for raising food consciousness among new diners in the city. </i>"

Bux - I agree with this whole heartedly. And I think Danny Meyer is the greatest. But, there's too many people from Arkansas there if you know what I mean. Look it's the same objection that I have when there are too many Americans in a restaurant in Paris. But do you think travel is more boring because we are all jaded? Or is it something else? Do too many people know about the good places?

Steve Shaw - I don't think my opinion of ADNY lessened. I keep saying I would like to go back. It's just that the

memory of the food didn't hold very well and my memory of the other things held better. I have to tell you that the memory test is the most important one. I can remember the great meals in my life. There's nothing

about my meal at ADNY that is memorable except that it's the 3 star experience in NYC which feels weird to me.

But I have to say that the day I was leaving I got their menu  in the mail. It certainly didn't make my mouth water.

As for the 3 star experince in NYC, I don't think that Ducasse is the only that can do it, I think he's the only one who wants to. I'm sure Daniel or J-G can do it if they want to. I'm sure they can do it at Le Bernadin if they want to. They don't do it here because the economics don't work here. I'm surpised they worl for Ducasse.

[Ron Johnson]

Too many people from Arkansas?  Please tell me your are joking.  As a Kentuckian who dines in your city regularly I find that comment troublesome.  I apologize if I ruin your dining experience in a given restaurant simply because I am not local.  I do eat at GT every time I am in the city.  I always find it superb, but I eat there because of the quality of the food (Mr. Colicchio) and the quality of the experience (Mr. Meyer).  Not because I feel more comfortable amidst other tourists (aka people from Arkansas).  

I am curious, what is it about our presence that lowers your esteem for Danny Meyer establishments? ####, I even wore shoes during my last visit!

[Steve Plotnicki]

Ron - Don't take my comment personally. It is directed at people who are less discerning, not at people who are from any place in particular. But, I would be telling a fib if I didn't say that in my experience it is more likely than not that people from outside the city are on the whole usually less discerning than people who live here.

Personally, I would prefer to eat a meal in the presence of locals. And that goes for wherever I am in the world not only NYC. In my experience restaurants that cater to too large a percentage of tourists often do not maintain the same level of quality as places that do.

And if I was in Kentucky and after some local country ham, I'd much prefer to be eating with the locals than places the tourists flock to.