Fatal Flaw: Red Wines Served At Room Temperature

[DonRocks]

Restaurants need to stop serving their red wines at room temperature - often as high as 75 or 80 degrees. My glass of Argentine Malbec was defiled tonight at Café Atlantico because it was so hot that all I could taste was seering alcohol and tannins. (The conscientious and friendly bartender remedied this by sticking the glass in the white wine cooler for ten minutes.) Unfortunately, this type of thing can ruin an otherwise excellent winelist. For the time being, I would bypass the reds by the glass, and take your chances with an unfamiliar white varietal at Café Atlantico, and hopefully the sommelier will get this message and begin lowering the temperature of his reds. The list has serious depth in certain areas, the sommelier is talented (I've talked with him twice now, and he knows his game), but the glass of red I had was served fully ten degrees too warm.

I had the same problem recently at Cashion's Eat Place: an excellent wine was compromised in a big way as it came out snorting alcohol it was so warm.

I've experienced many other examples of the same thing throughout the city, and I think they're worth spotlighting here from this point forward, in the hopes that people in charge of the wine programs begin to get it. Don't you guys see that serving young, tannic red wines at room temperature basically takes half your list, and renders it worthless? I think this tawdry situation has been the status quo for a long time (like forever), but maybe now is a good time to begin tending to it.

Cheers,

Rocks.

P.S. I'm well aware that architectural constraints and pre-built storage conditions can make this a real challenge, but still....

Edited February 24, 2004 by DonRocks (log)

[bleachboy]

I may be the exception to the rule, but I rarely order wine at mid-level restaurants, to be honest. I do love a good cocktail!!

However, at home my wife and I both drink wine almost every day. I typically serve both red and white wines at the same temperature -- I usually put them in the fridge for about a half hour, which brings them down to about 60 degrees or so. I usually chill non-French chardonnay (which I don't often drink) or sauvignon blanc a few extra minutes, but not much more. This week I had a bottle of Sardinian wine which was terrible (it may have been flawed, but I have no benchmark for Sardinian wines) that was drinkable only after chilling to ice-cold.

Currently I have been on a tasting binge, attending something like three tastings in the last two weeks. I'll post notes if anybody's interested, but I'm a novice taster and so may be far off mark. Probably OT here.

[Katherine]

Come summer they'll be serving their red wines at 85ºF. Yecch!

[JPW]

Come summer they'll be serving their red wines at 85ºF. Yecch!

It can be worse that that.

In my experience at mid-level places, the wines by the glass are often served from the bar. The whites will be in a reach-in (read beer) cooler and will come out at about 40 degrees. The reds will be either on or behind the bar. Depending on how close they are to a glass washer, the exhaust fans for the coolers, or in some cases the kitchen door, they can be absolutely hot.

I always find it wise to cast an eye at the bar to locate the wines they are pouring and make your decision from there.

[JPW]

Just another thought along the same lines...

Most places in US serve beer WAY to cold. If it's 95 degrees out and I'm having a light lager, I want it ice cold. But if I'm drinking say a highly flavored and hopped IPA, then it should not be served with ice crystals.

[Joe H]

When you order red wine by the glass you have to expect this especially if you're paying less than $10.00 per glass. You also have to accept that less expensive bottles of wine are not going to be stored in most restaurant's cellars or Eurocaves since the cost of this, if passed along to the consumer, would add to what they must sell the wine for. In most cases wine served at room temperature, say 72 degrees, is fine for a less expensive bottle of wine. If you're ordering better wine, say $100 or more, then I believe your complaint is legitimate. Of course then you have a different consideration: if it's stored at 55 degrees or less it will probably need to be decanted and while it opens up the temperature can rise a bit.

I do not like wine that comes directly from a cellar. It is too cold to drink. If I take a bottle from mine I let it sit for at least an hour at room temperature before drinking it. I also think that artifricially cooling the wine (i.e. refrigerator, etc. for ten or fifteen minutes) affects the taste and will not do this.

I have sent back warm wine before but have found it rare that I needed to do this. I suspect that you prefer the correct serving tempeature for all wine and this just isn't possible in most restaurants unless they can pass along the cost of wine storage and service which most people will not pay unless it is a better bottle. As for white, I only rare drink this preferring red with most everything.

[Joe H]

One more thought: this is one of the primary reasons that I have my own cellar or that one should seriously consider, say, a Eurocave. I prefer red wine at about 63-65 degrees, not 75 nor 55. Even a $10.00 bottle tastes better at the correct temperature. But I'm just not going to find this in most restaurants or it would no longer be a $10.00 bottle!

[tommy]

But I'm just not going to find this in most restaurants or it would no longer be a $10.00 bottle!

ideal storage temps and treatment aside, i have no problem asking a server to throw a quick chill on a 10 dollar bottle of red (which is what i usually drink ). and i've certainly never had an 85 degree bottle, nor have i eaten at any places where the overall temp of the restaurant was 85 degrees. thankfully.

Edited February 24, 2004 by tommy (log)

[DonRocks]

When you order red wine by the glass you have to expect this especially if you're paying less than $10.00 per glass. You also have to accept that less expensive bottles of wine are not going to be stored in most restaurant's cellars or Eurocaves since the cost of this, if passed along to the consumer, would add to what they must sell the wine for. In most cases wine served at room temperature, say 72 degrees, is fine for a less expensive bottle of wine. If you're ordering better wine, say $100 or more, then I believe your complaint is legitimate.

Joe,

I do expect it, but I don't accept it. (Hence, this thread.)

Think about it: I order a $10 bowl of seafood bisque, and it arrives cold. Is it worth a mention, or should I save it for the $140 ounce of Beluga with toast points?

Cheers,

Rocks.

[beans]

Keep in mind that only a serious bar dedicated to proper wine service will afford the necessary equipment. Refrigeration is a monsterous expense and if the establishment isn't dedicated to the perfect service of wine from top to bottom, well then temperatures may suffer.

If your beer is too cold, it is often a sign of a beer bottle cooler on the fritz.(compressor working far too hard due to whatever solinoid this or that -- I will occasionally hear our repairmen muttering. Some of it makes sense, some I just don't care. I just want it fixed in time for our rush).

Other times when beer or white wine are too cold from a bar cooler it is because of overstocking and not allowing for a proper air space for circulation around all of the product. That is a number one error on any bartender trying to do good without understanding what it is conversely doing to the equipment.

Talking a bar/restaurant owner into purchasing quality refrigeration is one up hill battle I've faced many a time and will almost always lose on as well. I want Perlicks or Glastenders and will end up with crappy, cheap qualitied and priced Trues. I want use specific pieces, I get multi-purpose.

edit: grammar!

Edited February 24, 2004 by beans (log)

[Joe H]

Beans and I are making the same point: correct wine service regardless of the cost of the bottle adds to the price. Restaurants make value judgments that having to add this can discourages someone from ordering wine or even give what may be the false impression that the restaurant overcharges. Frankly, there are two few restaurants here or anywhere that have consistently good wine service. For that matter how many sommeliers really do a proper decanting of a better bottle? I would suggest there's only a handful in the area. Personally, my wife and I went to Il Desco in Verona three years ago and I ordered a bottle of '97 Solaia which was one of the most expensive bottles i've ever ordered in a restaurant. At the time it was 200 Euros or around $175 then. But I really wanted to try it, it was a vacation, it was the Wine Spectator wine of the year and going for $300 here on wine commune, so I said to hell with it.

It was served at room temperature (no storage) and the waiter uncorked the bottle and filled both of our glasses. Then he walked away. I sat there with my mouth open! Remembers, Rocks, this was a restaurant with two Michelin stars!

I was so mad that I found the manager and complained. Still, a bottle like this and service like this for '97 Solaia.

Anyway, the wine show this weekend at the new convention center will have the lowest price of the year for Eurocaves. I bought one there last year and, incredibly, there was a line 20 to 30 minutes long waiting to spend $2,000! Still this was about $500 or 600 lower than their best catalogue price of the year and it also included shipping. (Retails for over $4000) I love it, absolutely love it. I'm even thinking of a second one since I'm up to 600 bottles. But you should really consider something like this. I completely understand your point about taste nd temperature.

[DonRocks]

Eurocaves ... you should really consider something like this. 

I want to add something: in no way am I trying to single out Café Atlantico with this thread. Quite the contrary, Café Atlantico is one of the places in Washington that's trying to do things the right way. For example, when I ordered a glass of Torrontes, the bartender poured me what I thought was a normal-sized fill, but then apologized because this was the last of it, and then recommended and offered me a glass of Pinot Gris instead. In essence, he poured me a full glass of each wine, and comped one of them. A refill on the Pinot Gris was also comped (and he was tipped well for his kindness, too). It's touches like this that take good service, and make it great service. The sommelier was readily at hand to answer a question I had about a wine, and the charismatic manager has been courteous and professional the last two times I went - he even remembered me from several weeks ago.

I repeat: I have nothing but good things to say about Café Atlantico. This single glass of warm red wine is merely a launching point for a much broader topic - a topic that has raised my hackles for years.

Cheers,

Rocks.

Edited February 24, 2004 by DonRocks (log)

[Katherine]

Just another thought along the same lines...

Most places in US serve beer WAY to cold. If it's 95 degrees out and I'm having a light lager, I want it ice cold. But if I'm drinking say a highly flavored and hopped IPA, then it should not be served with ice crystals.

[rant]NO!!!

There are no circumstances under which it is appropriate to have ice crystals in beer! Ever!!!

Don't get me started, you know how I get.[/rant]

[Mark Sommelier]

Just another thought along the same lines...

Most places in US serve beer WAY to cold. If it's 95 degrees out and I'm having a light lager, I want it ice cold. But if I'm drinking say a highly flavored and hopped IPA, then it should not be served with ice crystals.

[rant]NO!!!

There are no circumstances under which it is appropriate to have ice crystals in beer! Ever!!!

Don't get me started, you know how I get.[/rant]

Beg to differ. Butt-widener needs it.

[Katherine]

Just another thought along the same lines...

Most places in US serve beer WAY to cold. If it's 95 degrees out and I'm having a light lager, I want it ice cold. But if I'm drinking say a highly flavored and hopped IPA, then it should not be served with ice crystals.

[rant]NO!!!

There are no circumstances under which it is appropriate to have ice crystals in beer! Ever!!!

Don't get me started, you know how I get.[/rant]

Beg to differ. Butt-widener needs it.

Refrigerator temp, yes. Ice crystals, no.

Ice crystals can ruin even bud light. The frosty mug to be filled with refrigerator temp beer is an affectation of people who are easily impressed by things that are very sixties, just like shag rugs and nehru jackets.

[JPW]

Ice crystals can ruin even bud light.

I didn't know that you could do any further damage to Bud Light

The frosty mug to be filled with refrigerator temp beer is an affectation of people who are easily impressed by things that are very sixties, just like shag rugs and nehru jackets.

I like nehru jackets!

[tommy]

The frosty mug to be filled with refrigerator temp beer is an affectation of people who are easily impressed by things that are very sixties, just like shag rugs and nehru jackets.

and others as well. factually speaking, lots of different types of people like an ice cold beer in a frosty mug.

(guilty)

Edited February 25, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Katherine]

The frosty mug to be filled with refrigerator temp beer is an affectation of people who are easily impressed by things that are very sixties, just like shag rugs and nehru jackets.

and others as well. factually speaking, lots of different types of people like an ice cold beer in a frosty mug.

(guilty)

Tommy, are you saying you like the idea of a really cold beer, or that you prefer (or don't mind) your beer frozen in a yellowish lump? 'Cause once it starts to freeze, it usually freezes straight through.

[tommy]

Tommy, are you saying you like the idea of a really cold beer, or that you prefer (or don't mind) your beer frozen in a yellowish lump? 'Cause once it starts to freeze, it usually freezes straight through.

frozen beer? i don't think i've ever had it. doesn't sound too good. to restate, i like an ice cold beer in a frosty mug. i thought that's what we were discussing. if not, my apologies.

[Katherine]

Tommy, are you saying you like the idea of a really cold beer, or that you prefer (or don't mind) your beer frozen in a yellowish lump? 'Cause once it starts to freeze, it usually freezes straight through.

frozen beer? i don't think i've ever had it. doesn't sound too good.

You are sooo lucky. I've had more than my share.

That's just what happens when an extra-heavy beer mug at 0ºF meets beer at 33ºF. A clear sign of bad beverage management.

And then, when you send it back, they give you grief and try to tell you that all the other customers are thrilled to get their beer frozen solid.

Then they give you a beer in a glass right out of the dishwasher. Grrrr....

[tommy]

That's just what happens when an extra-heavy beer mug at 0ºF meets beer at 33ºF. A clear sign of bad beverage management.

i would say that's also a sign of a curiously cold freezer and a curiously cold refrigerator.

[hannnah]

and others as well. factually speaking, lots of different types of people like an ice cold beer in a frosty mug.

Absolutely. It just depends on the beer. Your basic cold wet beers (Foster's, various iterations of Miller, Shiner Bock) should be cold, even to the point of having the wee slushies at the top. (Insert Homer voice: "mmm...beer slurpee.")

Your cask ales and Guinnesses, on the other hand, should never see the cold side of 45 degrees. Unfortunately, there aren't that many places that make the distinction between the two types. There's nothing worse than a too-cold Boddington's or a too-warm Shiner Bock.

[Katherine]

That's just what happens when an extra-heavy beer mug at 0ºF meets beer at 33ºF. A clear sign of bad beverage management.

i would say that's also a sign of a curiously cold freezer and a curiously cold refrigerator.

Not really. You've probably got half again as much glass as beer, so the temperature of the whole thing is definitely going to end up in the frozen range. We're not talking about restaurants that keep microbrew at cellar temperatures. We're talking about places that chill them to almost freezing to start with, because that's what budlovers claim they want. And freezers normally can chill to 0º, though the mug you get may not have been in there long enough to reach equilibrium at that temperature.

I've had this happen at both lunch and dinner.

PS: when you are saying "icy cold beer", you are speaking figuratively, while I'm speaking literally. Thawed beer has no flavor left to it, even if you care to wait for it to thaw so you can drink it.

Hannah: If you like your beer with slush floating on top of it, I can steer you to a bar that serves their martinis that way too.

[tommy]

PS: when you are saying "icy cold beer", you are speaking figuratively, while I'm speaking literally.

yeah. i think most of the planet knows what i'm talking about when i say "ice cold beer" and "frosty mug". sorry for the confusion.

Edited February 26, 2004 by tommy (log)

[beans]

That's just what happens when an extra-heavy beer mug at 0ºF meets beer at 33ºF. A clear sign of bad beverage management.

More likely, as I highlighted above, somthing similar to the tune of cheap, budget minded ownership decisions with the choice of equipment purchases.

edited to add: I've seen shag being used and was told it was on a comeback!

Edited February 27, 2004 by beans (log)