Per Se

[fiftydollars]

I had the pleasure of dining at Per Se last September and I have to say that some of the negative reviews I have read have struck a chord with me. Not necessarily because the experience we had was similar to that of any reviewer(s), but because ever since I ate there I have been struggling with where I should place Per Se in my personal pantheon of food experiences.

We were there the weekend before the NYT 4-star review and I was nothing short of dazzled by the experience. However, there were a few burps and hiccups in the service that I felt seemed to magnify the small burps and hiccups in the food and overall clearly differentiated my experience at Per Se from my experience at the French Laundry.

The smallest of these infractions was committed by the first server that came to us after we had been seated and greeted by one of the men in a suit. We made a comment to the server about the laundry symbols on the lighting fixtures and asked what one of them meant. She said she would find out and left, but then never came back to tell us (It was a tiny little infraction that we would never have even remembered had things not slid so quickly downhill from there).

A further infraction, and one which resonated because of who committed it, happened later when we were served the sorbet course twice in a row by a gentleman who’s station near the “fireplace” apparently required him to look over at our table regularly, at times point in our direction, and in one instance to call together a group of servers for the purpose of determining who would come over to ask me to put away my camera. I was just a little annoyed about it since I had twice asked for permission and was taking non-flash photographs in a nearly empty area of the dining room. But it was a perfectly reasonable request that I was happy to honor and I was not sure why it had required such a commotion.

Apparently none of them had wanted to talk to us and they instead sent out a guy from the back. He told us that photography is not allowed and before I could protest he offered a tour of the kitchen after our meal. I took this as quite a bonus and left it at that, but my companion, who had watched a lot more of the “huddle” and miscellaneous drama, was not happy about it and she said she sensed a good deal of condescension in his tone.

I was apparently blinded by the giddy excitement of it all and didn’t notice, as she had, that we had assumed the role of persona non grata before we had even been served the “cone.” So when the man by the fireplace (they are candles in what is not exactly a fireplace but rather some other nifty design element) served us the sorbet, which was by the way the only course he attempted to serve, it simultaneously made me glad that perhaps the service missteps resulted from a lack of polish attributable to a less-than-seasoned staff and deeply disappointed that I was paying a hell of a lot more than I had at the French Laundry for what was essentially service and food from Thomas Keller’s second-string.

My rabbit rillette contained a small fragment of bone, which was the sole flaw in an otherwise perfect execution of Mr. Keller’s menu. However, my dining partner had nothing but criticism and nit picking on her mind after our unfortunate run-in with the management. She noted that following our incident the rather large man stationed near the fireplace regularly looked over at our table and made gestures that she took to be unprofessional. I spent most of the meal calming her and trying to bring back our pleasant mood. But she’s not a “food person (her words)” and no matter how many times I told her how great TK is and how he is the patron saint of all food things good, she didn’t believe me and she seemed to feel sorry for me.

[oakapple]

It does appear as if Per se is laboring under a spate of negative reviews, one of the first of which was Todd's. The reviews are very much unlike my experience there last year. This is perplexing. The only explanation I can think of is that they are trying to cut corners to save money and it is showing.  A shame if this is more than a blip.

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It would be sad indeed if corner-cutting is the reason, given that the price of the 9-course has gone up by 1/6th ($150 to $175), and the price of the 5-course by 1/3rd ($125 to $175), since the NYT review came out. In percentage terms that's a pretty hefty increase, although anyone prepared to pay $125-150 at Per Se was probably not deterred by a price $25-50 higher. As far as I can tell, reservations haven't gotten any easier to snag.

The question is whether Per Se has gone down, or whether flaws it always had are just finally catching up with it.

[Todd36]

It does appear as if Per se is laboring under a spate of negative reviews, one of the first of which was Todd's. The reviews are very much unlike my experience there last year. This is perplexing. The only explanation I can think of is that they are trying to cut corners to save money and it is showing.  A shame if this is more than a blip.

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It would be sad indeed if corner-cutting is the reason, given that the price of the 9-course has gone up by 1/6th ($150 to $175), and the price of the 5-course by 1/3rd ($125 to $175), since the NYT review came out. In percentage terms that's a pretty hefty increase, although anyone prepared to pay $125-150 at Per Se was probably not deterred by a price $25-50 higher. As far as I can tell, reservations haven't gotten any easier to snag.

The question is whether Per Se has gone down, or whether flaws it always had are just finally catching up with it.

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They must have very high, fixed costs. The lease alone should be in excess of $1 million a year, although there was some unusual structure where at least initially, the landlord was absorbing some costs. I don't think they can generate revenues high enough to cover their costs and make any kind of profit. Perhaps under the terms of their lease, their expenses are now going up. Quite possible. Compare them to say ADNY, which I bet has lease costs alone that are half or less than those of Per Se.

I dodn't notice any obvious cost cutting moves at Per Se, althought I though $6 for a glass of club soda was pure gouging. I wasn't fond of the staff. It reminded me of Bergdorf at its worst and most old-fashioned "you're lucky we let you in here."

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be. Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good. Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

[VeryApe77]

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be.  Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good.  Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

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I was under the impression, having just read 'Soul of a Chef' (which, of course, could contain some bias in it) that Keller didn't exactly "fail" with Rakel, but was just a victim of the economy at the time.

Also, the idea of the FL being good "but not because of Keller" seem a bit odd. Who else would it be down to? Maybe there could be a argument made that it is the network of local purveyors who help make the FL what it is? Maybe Keller just works better outside of the city? I dunno.

[robert40]

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be.  Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good.  Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

Congratulations Todd ! You now hold the honor of raising my eye brow's more often in the last month then my fourteen year old son.

Not a small feat I assure you.

[iheartoffal]

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be.  Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good.  Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

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To say that Thomas Keller is strictly about hype is simply ridiculous. For years he has won almost unanimous praise from critics, chefs, and average diners alike. You're calling into question the integrity, honesty, and qualification of thousands of people who certainly know better than you.

[docsconz]

I dodn't notice any obvious cost cutting moves at Per Se, althought I though $6 for a glass of club soda was pure gouging.  I wasn't fond of the staff.  It reminded me of Bergdorf at its worst and most old-fashioned "you're lucky we let you in here."

Lesser quality of ingredients might be a significant cost-cutting move. Based on descriptions from you and others, this seems possible.

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be.  Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good.  Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

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Per Se may or may not be sliding, but I know that last year around this time I and the rest of my party had one outstanding meal there.

[iheartoffal]

I guess they really are cutting costs! Here's a sample from a recent tasting menu:

Salisbury "Steak"

"Top" Ramen Noodles, Sauce "A1"

and the cheese course?

Cheeze "Whiz"

"Saltine" wafer, "Spam"

[rich]

The problem may be simply that after a year, the kitchen is getting bored. Without Keller around and his famous pep talks and micro-managing skills, the staff might becoming hum-drum.

The thinking could be something along these lines: "Okay, another nine-course tasting where I put these little morsels in these big dishes. No more challenges, just little nibbles of food that people will pay a hefty price, ask a few dumb questions, leave a tip and then go home - probably never to be seen again or at least for a long while. Oh, not only that but the boss is 3,000 miles away, he'll never know if I take a shortcut here and there. I just want to collect my paycheck and go home."

Hey this happens in most industries.

Thinking about it - that would get to me after a while.

[eje]

I guess they really are cutting costs!  Here's a sample from a recent tasting menu:

Salisbury "Steak"

"Top" Ramen Noodles, Sauce "A1"

and the cheese course?

Cheeze "Whiz"

"Saltine" wafer, "Spam"

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LOL

Is this some sort of tie-in with the immensely succesful Spam-A-Lot musical?

By the way, the quotation marks in dish names and descriptions in my post were painstakingly transcribed from the take home menu. I have to admit I got a bit carried away with the spirit of them in my commentary.

edited for spelling.

Edited May 11, 2005 by eje (log)

[Todd36]

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be.  Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good.  Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

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To say that Thomas Keller is strictly about hype is simply ridiculous. For years he has won almost unanimous praise from critics, chefs, and average diners alike. You're calling into question the integrity, honesty, and qualification of thousands of people who certainly know better than you.

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Hmmm. Yama tends to come pretty close to topping the Zagat sushi poll. As does Haru. Guess thousands of Zagat poll people must be right, two of the best sushi places in NYC. My 1999 Zagat has the Four Seasons outranking Bouley. Think that was really true? Thousands of people can't be wrong. I won't mention things like Budweiser and McD's. Once a restaurant gets labeled as good, its often viewed as good by people, no matter what their own experience is. "they must have had a bad day....my taste buds are not good rnough...etc." Enough people, both on eGullet and in print, have said enough bad things about Per Se for any reasonable person to conclude that Per Se may not be what its cracked up to be. If you assume that is true, that Per Se really isn't a four star place of the highest calibre, then either French Laundry is a better restaurant and you are left with the question of why it is better than Per Se, or you have the possibility that French Laundry may not be as good as its reputation suggests.

[Todd36]

There are other, perhaps more cynicial, reasons why Per Se doesn't seem to be as good as people think it should be.  Perhaps Keller failed in NY the first time for the right reasons, meaning he wasn't that good.  Perhaps French Laundry isn't quite as good as people think, maybe its the air over there, or perhaps its as good as people think, but not because of Keller.

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I was under the impression, having just read 'Soul of a Chef' (which, of course, could contain some bias in it) that Keller didn't exactly "fail" with Rakel, but was just a victim of the economy at the time.

Also, the idea of the FL being good "but not because of Keller" seem a bit odd. Who else would it be down to? Maybe there could be a argument made that it is the network of local purveyors who help make the FL what it is? Maybe Keller just works better outside of the city? I dunno.

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Could be lots of reasons. Some examples:

1. There are people on the Kitchen and/or front of the house staff in CA that are better than what he has in NY. This may not be directly connected to Keller. For example, I bet Montrachet's opening with Bouley was more dumb luck than a well conceived plan. Who knows? Maybe in 10 years Keller's been lucky in who he's hired and/or trained in CA.

2. Maybe the ingredents are better in CA.

3. Maybe the overall standards are lower in CA, so French Laundry seems very good compared to its local competition.

4. Maybe the atmosphere in the CA location is better and puts people in a better mood.

Who knows. I'm serious though. There may be factors not directly connected to Keller that make French Laundry good, or not.

Again, this goes back to Keller can't be wrong and the French Laundry must be as good as everyone says, and Per Se must be as good as French Laundry. None of that may be true, or perhaps all of it is true.

I'm also somwhat distrustful of the masses. My guess is that if you served mightly dog aspic style dog food to customers at your average 4 star and told them it was french contry pate, quite a few of them would believe you. At least from a distance, they don't smell so different..... When you go through all of the hassle of reserving at a 3 star, and paying the bill, many people do not want to admit that the experience was anyhting but the best.

[Todd36]

While trying to keep this on topic (and while reminding myself to learn how to spell), a sizable portion of the diners at a place like ADNY or Per Se or Jean Georges either are special occasion diners, who have a limited frame of reference or are people who just don't have taste buds. Some of my classmates in college actually thought the dorm food was good.... That sort of thing impacts people's ability to provide meaningful views on the food of said restaurants. For an example of how this can impact a restaurant's reputation, look at Yama with sushi. Very few (perhaps no) sushi nuts think Yama is even good. Yet many. many people who don't know real sushi at all give Yama a very high rating. Tomoe sushi often tops Zagat's, and I have no idea why. I don't like the place, and neither do the Japanese people I know. At best, Tomoe is probably a somewhat above average sushi place, no where near the best in NY. This is going to really impact a place like Per Se, where much of the food is unusual. Many of their customers will never have tasted food like that before, and given the price, will be loath to think it is anything but good. Same thing applies to Jean Georges, ADNY etc. This lack of "expertise" is exactly what people accuse Bruni of: "he can't do good reviews because he doesn't know food." I don't want to argue Bruni here, but its interesting that people will claim the NYT food reviewer doesn't now food but are quite happy to assume that the general public does. Remember the Folger coffee commercials "we've replaced the coffee with Folgers...." I have a very strong hunch that if Per Se served Mighty Dog liver in aspic dog food, many people would think it was a very rustic country pate and they would eat it. I'm not joking. Half of their customers have probably never had rustic country pate before and lack a frame of reference, and others have no taste buds.

Per Se wasn't bad. It's not deserving of a roasting like English is Italian got in today's NYT. But Per Se cannot make a reasonable claim on being the top restaurant in NYC, too many people, including a number of published reviews, have said too many bad things about Per Se.

I have read enough restaurant reviews, eaten in enough restaurants, and have enough friends with good taste buds to conclude that conventional wisdom about any given restaurant may not be right. I think that is true about Per Se, although now other people seem to reaching a similar conclusion.

In terms of French Laundry, it may be better than Per Se, it may not be, and its quite possible its good for reasons other than Keller. I learned very long ago in my line of work that the remote is sometimes true, that the facts are often not what they seem to be, and that one should be careful about one's assumptions. I'm not sure why people are unwilling to make accept the same possibilities with any given restaurant.

Few people seem willing to defend V Steak House, even though its across the street from a 4 star run by the same man. Why can people accept that V is not as good as Jean Georges while assumung that Per Se must be as good as French Laundry?

[oakapple]

While trying to keep this on topic (and while reminding myself to learn how to spell), a sizable portion of the diners at a place like ADNY or Per Se or Jean Georges either are special occasion diners, who have a limited frame of reference or are people who just don't have taste buds.

It is dangerous to make sweeping generalizations about people whom one doesn't know. I do agree that, for many diners, a visit to a four-star restaurant is a special occasion. But these aren't the same people who thought college dorm food was a gourmet experience. Those folks are probably going to One if by Land, Two if by Sea for their special night out.

A fair survey of media reports and eGullet posts on Per Se shows that it has received a number of ecstatic reviews from people who, without question, clearly did know what they're talking about. That this view is not unanimous may suggest that Per Se is uneven; that it is no longer executing as well as when it first opened; or that it's not to all tastes.

Few people seem willing to defend V Steak House, even though its across the street from a 4 star run by the same man. Why can people accept that V is not as good as Jean Georges while assumung that Per Se must be as good as French Laundry?

I don't know that anyone has said that Per Se must be as good as FL. Beyond that, the comparison breaks down. Per Se and FL are two implementations of practically the identical concept. Whether one likes V Steakhouse or not, no one claims that it is the same concept as Jean Georges. JGV does not appear to have much involvement in V Steakhouse, aside from lending it his initial.

[slkinsey]

Ladies and Gentlemen: I would like to take this moment to remind us all of some key expectations we have about participation in the eG Forums.

- We encourage debate, even strong disagreement. But we debate ideas, not people. Personal remarks of any kind will not be tolerated. We have seen far too many personal gibes in this thread, and members who continue to engage in this behavior will be asked to leave the discussion.

- Points are always better made when they are made respectfully and dispassionately.

- If and when it becomes apparent that several parties mutually disagree and cannot reconcile their views, that's when it is time to move on.

- If and when certain points lead to interesting discussions that are not uniquely or fundamentally related to Per Se, please start a new thread. If you would like a few posts split out to seed the new thread, you can always ask a Host for assistance.

[bilrus]

Per Se cannot make a reasonable claim on being the top restaurant in NYC, too many people, including a number of published reviews, have said too many bad things about Per Se.

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Can't this be said about any of the contenders for "top restaurant in New York"? I'm not aware of any restaurant that aspires to the top level that doens't have it sshare of detractors. Per Se might not be the best in New York, but just because people have said a few bad things about it doesn't rule it out completely.

[sammy]

It looks like this thread has gone from "Per Se is the greatest restaurant in NYC or possibly the US" to "Maybe Thomas Keller should rethink the technique of his 2nd most famous dish."

Seems a bit fickle, no?

[DanaT]

Hmm, I got shut out of the French Laundry for an upcoming trip to California and was looking foward to snagging a reservation at Per Se. But now I'm wondering. Is it worth the hassle to get a reservation right now or would you wait until the hiccups get ironed out?

[Todd36]

Lobster is a wild product and unlike say the fish served in sushi, where a buyer can sample the product before you buy it, lobster is a pig in a poke I think, don't know what you have until you open it. And given that it isn't cheap, I don't expect that Per Se is going to trash 75% of the lobsters they buy; the probably trash the ones they really don't like. I'm sure if you buy very fresh lobsters from the right supplier, you can generally have better lobsters. And I'm sure every restaurant is always going to be a less than stellar lobster once in a while. People seem to agree that Per Se has a generally tough lobster dish. That would seem to mean something is wrong. Maybe:

1. They are buying lobster from the wrong place.

2. Maybe they are mishandling the lobsters upon arrival.

3. Maybe they are screwing up the cooking.

Options 2 and 3 would seem most likely. The better question, as other people note, is why Per Se doesn't seem to have done anything about this---perhaps they don't know?

I wouldn't roast Per Se over this one little issue. When I had this dish, I was like, hmmm, its pretty good lobster and a little tough---its nice but not special---not sure how different this was from a good lobster served with butter on the side that I soaked for a few seconds. In that sense lobster in general may not be the best way to show off your cooking skills---some shack in Maine can probably turn out a better lobster served with butter than any place in NY.

[bilrus]

Hmm, I got shut out of the French Laundry for an upcoming trip to California and was looking foward to snagging a reservation at Per Se. But now I'm wondering. Is it worth the hassle to get a reservation right now or would you wait until the hiccups get ironed out?

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I wouldn't avoid Per Se.

We are talking about the difference between Per Se being "the best meal you've ever" had or merely "one of the best meals you've ever had". I don't think anyone, even the restaurant's biggest critics, are saying that it is a terrible or even average restaurant.

[Weissman]

I not sure what to think? When I was there, on 3/27/05, I also had the lobster mac and cheese, sous vide.

When it comes to technology, nothing is perfect. Sometimes, having timing down to a science, can be dangerous, especially, when the price costs $175 for the customer.

When you get something down to a science, the cook can become lax: like Lucy and Ethel at the candy factory. Speed it up!! Damn, I missed that lobster. Oh well, they'll never know! Maybe the problem isn't "sous vide," maybe it is the "sous chef." OK bad joke!

The cry-o-vac machine is there to make reading the menu more of a challenge. Maybe my boss at work is right: the whole idea about this method is the make the food item sound more "foo foo!"

The focus of the item should be flavor. Whatever happend cooking the old fashioned way. Is Per Se running out of burner space, or something? There are plenty of burners when I saw the kitchen.

[Bux]

. . . .  The cry-o-vac machine is there to make reading the menu more of a challenge. Maybe my boss at work is right: the whole idea about this method is the make the food item sound more "foo foo!"

. . . .

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Your boss is wrong. Cry-o-vac and sous vide doesn't even sound very appetizing to me, but it evidently works if done right. Sous vide is just about the chef getting more control over how he cooks his food. We had a long thread about home chefs using the technique successfully.

[Weissman]

. . . .  The cry-o-vac machine is there to make reading the menu more of a challenge. Maybe my boss at work is right: the whole idea about this method is the make the food item sound more "foo foo!"

. . . .

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Your boss is wrong. Cry-o-vac and sous vide doesn't even sound very appetizing to me, but it evidently works if done right. Sous vide is just about the chef getting more control over how he cooks his food. We had a long thread about home chefs using the technique successfully.

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Fair enough! I have no real experience using this method myself.

However, I believe there are too many descriptions using quotation marks, location of food items, and Franglish: ie: lobster "en sous vide." I have a culinary background and I thinking what the hell does that mean. Not in the case of the homard.

I am not saying that descriptions aren't nice, but there comes a point when the focus of the menu makes you want to see the inside of your eyelids.

[Todd36]

Walked by Per Se tonight. They now have a glass covered table set-up outside their main entrance, listing the menus of the day---also makes the fact that Per Se is there more obvious. Wonder if they read eGullet.... Was told that appeared about a month ago. Stopped into Bar Masa tonight for a drink, noted they have the same terrible, non-functional bathroom fixtures as Per Se....must be a building or shared design problem. People working at Bar Masa said conventional wisdom and gossip within the building is that Per Se loses several steps when Keller is not there---that may exaplain the uneven views on this thread.

[Dryden]

We ate at Per Se for the third time a couple of weeks ago and I wanted to respond with our comments as to some of the issues raised in this thread. But first, a story.

We had decided to take my parents to Per Se, as a way of thanking them for all of their help on a variety of things over the past few months. The morning of our reservation, my wife and I found out that we were, in fact, pregnant. We did not wish to disclose this fact to my folks, but at the same time, had been informed by her doctor that there were several things which she absolutely should not eat or drink, including:

Wine

Raw fish

Foie gras

Tuna

Not exactly sure what to do, we called Per Se, and explained the situation, including the fact that under no circumstances were they to reveal to the 2 older people at the table what was going on. While they suggested that she order the vegetable tasting, she was quite adamant that she would prefer not to, and they understood. We were not sure what, exactly, they would do, but had faith they would figure something out.

We arrived for our reservation and were seated. All decided to order the chef's tasting menu, with my wife (obviously) opting out of the foie gras. The course of big eye tuna in the middle of the menu loomed quite large, however. I surreptitiously confirmed with the waiter that he understood our situation, and my wife begged out of consuming wine, saying that she was just too tired and would fall asleep in her food.

When the amuse was brought out, there were 2 tomato cones, for the ladies, and 2 salmon cones, for the gentlemen. A very clever touch to mix things up, but not be too obvious about it. For the hearts of palm salad/foie gras course, something inexplicable happened. The kitchen sent out the wrong number of each, and there was a bit of commotion until the whole affair was straightened out. It was utterly perplexing - a service snafu of this level seemed pretty unlikely to happen at Per Se. The reality of what was going on sank in 2 courses later.

At the beginning of the next course, the waiter came by to apologize for the service error. He indicated that as a way to make up for the mistake, the chef would very much appreciate being able to substitute a vastly better piece of cobia for the much inferior tuna, and would be honored if we would accept this. My folks gladly accepted, none the wiser. The rest of the meal went off without a hitch, but I have to give the folks at Per Se a huge amount of credit - this was, without a doubt, totally slick and impressive. I'm not sure if they run into requests like this all that often, but they did a simply phenomenal job.

As for the sous vide lobster, it is a bit tough - too much so. I didn't have an impossible time cutting it with the knife provided, but the flavor was not so much better than that of the butter poached lobster to make me wonder why they are choosing to serve it this way. A sharp meat knife would certainly seem to do the trick, in any case. As for the cheese course, it was the cheese gnocchi with olive oil, which we have had several times. Certainly not the greatest cheese course of all time, but quite a bit more satisfying than many.

The new chocolate selections from the new pastry chef (name is eluding me), which I don't believe anyone has mentioned so far, are truly outstanding. I think the quality of the macarons has gone up, too.

Is it as good as it was a year and a half ago? Possibly not, but it's still one of the 2 or 3 best meals in New York, and a very strong case can be made for it being the best on any given one. There are a couple of courses that could probably use a bit of strengthening, and the knife with the lobster should be changed, but the personnel remain absolutely top-notch in every conceivable way.