Bourgeat

[Suvir Saran]

If I were to invest in Bourgeat, what line and items should I consider?

They have the Tradichef (Stainless line with sandwich construction: stainless/aluminium/stainless steel base) with cool cast stainless handles and shafts. It is very attractive for a stainless line of cookware.

They have the Copper Stainless line that I really into. It is made with cast iron handles. I have All Clad Copper Chef and many of the pieces from that collection. I now tend to only use the copper-stainless cookware I have. The stainless and calphalon pieces take back stage.

They have a line with special stainless steel for induction hobs. It is highly resistant to corrosion and with shape memory for perfectly flat cooking (if there is any such thing). The base is covered with magnetic stainless steel. And the handles are welded stainless.

They also have the Black steel range.

What pieces from these do you think are best to get?

Should I stick to one collection or get pieces from each of them. Pieces that are best in each of them?

Is the quality of the Bourgeat copper/stainless really all that different from the All Clad?

What are some of the most successful Bourgeat products in the copper/stainless collection?

Thanks for helping me with this.

[slkinsey]

If I were to invest in Bourgeat, what line and items should I consider?

First... I would suggest that the qualities of an individual piece of cookware are more important than the manufacturer. Bourgeat is a very good manufacturer, but I have found much of their stuff way over-priced (although that is changing). You might want to take a peek around my eGCI class on cookware to get some background information.

They have the Tradichef (Stainless line with sandwich construction: stainless/aluminium/stainless steel base) with cool cast stainless handles and shafts.  It is very attractive for a stainless line of cookware.

Bourgeat has two stainless steel lines, the Tradition Plus line and the Excellence line. They both appear to employ an aluminum disk-bottom design at around 6 mm and as such are directly comparable to similarly designed lines such as Mauviel's Pro-Inox, Paderno's Grand Gourmet, Sitram's Profisserie, Chaudier's 5000, etc. They should all perform similarly, with differences mostly being in design details and configuration.

They have the Copper Stainless line that I really into.  It is made with cast iron handles.

This line is made with the copper/stainless bi-metal developed by Falk Culinair, as is all stainless-lined copper cookware. As a result, the performance characteristics are absolutely equal for a given thickness of copper (with 2.5 mm being preferred). There are minor differences between the three manufacturers commonly available in the US: Bourgeat has a polished interior and exterior, Mauviel has a polished exterior and a brushed interior, Falk Culinair has a brushed interior and exterior (Falk has smaller rivet heads too, but I think that is a superficial difference). As mentioned in my cookware article, and discussed in the accompanying Q&A, I think Falk's brushed exterior makes it much easier to maintain.

Historically, Bourgeat's copper cookware has tended to be significantly more expensive. This has evened out over the years due to market pressures as buyers have figured out that there is no reason to pay 70% more for the exact same cookware with a different name stamped on the side. When buying stainless lined heavy copper cookware, choosing a manufacturer is mostly an issue of price, with ease of maintenance being a secondary consideration. In my experience, Falk Culinair clearly wins on ease of maintenance, and is almost always priced competitively (especially with their periodic sales and special offers.

I have All Clad Copper Chef and many of the pieces from that collection. I now tend to only use the copper-stainless cookware I have.

Hmmm... how to put this... All-Clad's Cop-R-Chef line confers none of the performance characteristics of copper. This cookware is constructed with an interior layer of stainless steel at ~0.4 mm, an internal layer of aluminum at ~2 mm and an exterior layer of copper at ~0.4 mm. This amount of copper is too thin to offer any thermal advantages, and the thermal properties of the cookware as a whole are determined entirely by the aluminum layer. The only difference between All-Clad's Stainless line and their Cop-R-Chef line is that one has an exterior of copper and one has an exterior of stainless steel. All-Clad does make a line with a thermal layer of copper between internal and external layers of stainless steel -- the Copper Core line -- but it is obscenely expensive.

The best-performing All-Clad lines are the MasterChef and LTD lines, which only have an internal lining. These two lines have an aluminum layer at ~ 4 mm. Twice as thick as the Stainless and Cop-R-Chef lines!

They have a line with special stainless steel for induction hobs.  It is highly resistant to corrosion and with shape memory for perfectly flat cooking (if there is any such thing).  The base is covered with magnetic stainless steel.  And the handles are welded stainless.

What's the point unless you plan to do induction cooking?

They also have the Black steel range.

This is easy stuff to make, and lots of manufacturers produce black steel and carbon steel cookware. Get the thickest gauge you can find and choose a manufacturer by price. Mine is De Buyer, I think.

What pieces from these do you think are best to get?

Should I stick to one collection or get pieces from each of them. Pieces that are best in each of them?

What is the point of choosing a manufacturer? Better to decide what performance characteristics you want, figure out what kind of design corresponds to those characteristics, identify which manufacturers produce cookware with the specifications you desire and then choose based on price.

Is the quality of the Bourgeat copper/stainless really all that different from the All Clad?

The performance of any stainless lined heavy copper cookware is going to be quite different from All-Clad -- especially the All-Clad lines that employ a thinner aluminum layer (Stainless and Cop-R-Chef).

What are some of the most successful Bourgeat products in the copper/stainless collection?

The cookware designs where I think you can detect the biggest difference when using heavy copper are serious saucemaking/reduction pans (saucepan, sauteuse evasee, curved sauteuse evasee in smaller sizes), fry pans and saute-type pans (especially the larger sauteuse evasee).

As I mentioned before, I don't think it makes much sense to identify a manufacturer and accumulate cookware based on that alone. Not for nothing, the manufacturers that tend to have a lot of customers who accumulate entire batteries exclusively from their brands (All-Clad, Bourgeat, Calphalon, Le Creuset) are also the ones that spend the most money on slick advertising to convince you that their stuff is somehow better and worth a lot more money than the otherwise similar competition. This is not to say that they don't make good stuff, but it is to say that it is usually significantly overpriced versus the competition. Bourgeat's copper cookware, for example, used to be 50% - 70% more than comparable cookware by Falk Culinair and Mauviel despite the fact that they all use exactly the same materials. Lately the prices have come down quite a bit due to market pressures and it is actually possible to find Bourgeat copper cookware that is priced competitively.

[Suvir Saran]

Many, many thanks for a great post and helpful insights.

I have pieces from the Copper Core and Cop R Chef and the LTD lines. I do enjoy the Cop R Chef when I want to serve and cook in one dish. The Copper Core pans are great when I make Dam Aloos or other dishes that need to cook for some time and on very low heat. These recipes work well in this line. LTD I use not very often, I have them, but have hardly used them. I do use the LTD roasting pans and they are great.

I have found Calphalons hard anodized very attractive, I often go towards the pot rack that holds them, and then find myself going for the Copper Core or Cop R Chef pieces on the other side. Not sure why... but earlier, I had mostly only LTD from All Clad and Calphalon.

How do the Bourgeat Copper roasting pans work?? Does it make much difference, if any to have one? I do find them very attractive. But is the appearance all there is to take into account?

I make a lot of chutneys and jams. Do you have any experience with copper Jam Pan? I was thinking of buying the extra heavy jam pan. I have never cooked with one. Wonder what changes.

And the Bourgeat Fish Poacher looks terrific. I know All Clad is coming out with a stainless one this fall. Perhaps it will be more affordable. What thoughts do you have on this item? Is it worth getting a copper one? Is it also about looks?

How does the crepe copper pan rate as opposed to other ones?

And the paella pan? I use the Cop R Chef (All Clad) one I have often and find this a great pan to use for many things other than Paella. I have never made a paella in it. But have used it for many an Indian stir fry dish. How would the Bourgeat compare with the Cop R Chef?

I do realize most of this is only about me having a fantasy about cooking with Bourgeat pieces.

[slkinsey]

I have pieces from the Copper Core and Cop R Chef  and the LTD lines.

All-Clad's Copper Core line is interesting. It would seem to confer most of the benefits of medium-gauge copper cookware with none of the maintenance hassles (I assume it is safe for the dishwasher). My issue with is is mainly that it costs so much and most of the time you can get much better performance out of stainless lined heavy copper at a similar or even less expensive price.

LTD I use not very often, I have them, but have hardly used them.

This is interesting because, while the LTD pans probably don't perform as well as the Copper Core pans, they definitely have thermal advantages over the Cop-R-Chef lines

I have found Calphalons hard anodized very attractive, I often go towards the pot rack that holds them, and then find myself going for the Copper Core or Cop R Chef pieces on the other side.

My issues with Calphalon are A) they tend to warp, B) the dark color on the internal surface makes it hard to see what you're doing, and C) anodized aluminum is very difficult to keep clean.

How do the Bourgeat Copper roasting pans work??  Does it make much difference, if any to have one?  I do find them very attractive. But is the appearance all there is to take into account?

It's all appearance. There is some slight advantage to having good heat distribution in a roasting pan for when you have it on the stovetop to deglaze, but certainly there is no point in spending big money on a heavy copper roasting pan. If you already have All-Clad LTD roasting pans, that's all the pan you need. That said, I have the feeling that the LTD roasting pans are nonstick, in which case I'd personally get something else. My large roasting pan is the only piece of Calphalon I have left, and my smaller one is an All-Clad Stainless piece I got on sale.

I make a lot of chutneys and jams. Do you have any experience with copper Jam Pan?  I was thinking of buying the extra heavy jam pan. I have never cooked with one.  Wonder what changes.

The difference is mostly in absolutely even heat, which is important when you are cooking things down to super-thickness as one does a jam. Just FYI, Falk Culinair makes a 16 quart jam pan that is cheaper than Bourgeat's 16.7 quart "extra heavy" jam pan, and they also make one in 19 quarts.

And the Bourgeat Fish Poacher looks terrific. I know All Clad is coming out with a stainless one this fall.  Perhaps it will be more affordable.  What thoughts do you have on this item? Is it worth getting a copper one?  Is it also about looks?

Totally no point in getting a fish poacher with a fancy thermal layer. Think about it... what are you doing? You're boiling water. When you're boiling water, regular stainless steel works just fine. Something like this is what you want... or this, if you need something heavy-duty and huge.

How does the crepe copper pan rate as opposed to other ones?

If you're going to get a crepe pan, I'd recommend a black steel or carbon steel crepe pan. They work just as well as any copper pan for this task -- probably easier to flip due to being lighter -- and cost practically nothing.

And the paella pan? I use the Cop R Chef (All Clad) one I have often and find this a great pan to use for many things other than Paella. I have never made a paella in it.  But have used it for many an Indian stir fry dish.  How would the Bourgeat compare with the Cop R Chef?

You're talking about their black steel paella pan? Probably works great. But, you can get a black steel paella pan from Bridge Kitchenware like this one for less money than a Bourgeat black steel paella pan like this one.

If you're planning on using the pan for things other than paella, such as stir frys, may I suggest something like these pans from Paderno's Grand Gourmet line? They have a 7 mm aluminum base for awesome heat capacity and good conductivity, and they're made of stainless steel so you don't have to worry about reactivity like you do with black steel. I have one of these, and love it.

I do realize most of this is only about me having a fantasy about cooking with Bourgeat pieces.

Yea...? But what's so great about Bourgeat? I can see wanting to cook with heavy copper. I love the stuff. But I've never understood the "mystique" of Bourgeat. AFAIK, Mauviel is probably the oldest and most legendary manufacturer of traditional French cookware (they've been at it since 1830).

[Suvir Saran]

Again, many thanks for such deep and fundamental insight.

Rumor has it that both Bourgeat and Mauviel use Falk Culinair copper for their pans. And this rumor comes my way from a fool proof source.

What I have now been most impressed by are the discount coupons one has when buying Falk Culinair. They have great prices offered through the website of the North America dealer. It makes any other purchase of Copper cookware just one of personal preference.

I would now think of getting the Falk Culinair pieces and still get some of the Bourgeat pieces I have wanted over the years.

Thanks for encouraging me to think of Mauviel and Falk Culinair and breaking the bubble about copperware.

As for roasting pans, I have the stainless and the non-stick one from All Clad and the Calphalon one. I will get a copper one, for I like how it looks and I will enjoy it for deglazing at times. It sure does look very beautiful and seems worth it for those special occasions when the total experience rests equally on the presentation as it does on taste and ease of preparation.

I thank you for all your help and your insight. WIll keep you posted about what I end up doing.

[slkinsey]

Rumor has it that both Bourgeat and Mauviel use Falk Culinair copper for their pans. And this rumor comes my way from a fool proof source.

Oh, you mean:

[bourgeat's copper/stainless] line is made with the copper/stainless bi-metal developed by Falk Culinair, as is all stainless-lined copper cookware.

Probably the same source. Bourgeat and Mauviel don't exactly advertise it, but I don't think they deny it either.

What I have now been most impressed by are the discount coupons one has when buying Falk Culinair. They have great prices offered through the website of the North America dealer.  It makes any other purchase of Copper cookware just one of personal preference.

I would now think of getting the Falk Culinair pieces and still get some of the Bourgeat pieces I have wanted over the years.

Yea... I tend to prefer Falk because I have a good customer relationship with the North American distributor and because the brushed exterior makes it much easier to keep bright using a Scotch Brite pad, some Bar Keeper's Friend and scrubbing with the grain.

That said, and as you mention, since they are all made from the same metal with minor differences in treatment, it really does become a matter of price and personal preference. The prices have evened out quite a bit so one can really do comparative shopping. For me, it would be worth maybe 10% more to get Falk simply for the brushed exterior.

One important piece of advice with respect to buying copper cookware: don't buy the copper lids! They add nothing in terms of functionality, they add quite a bit to the price and they are a bitch to keep clean. Believe me, you don't want to be polishing your copper lids every time you decide to cover a pot for a few minutes. This is the voice of experience talking here.

As for roasting pans, I have the stainless and the non-stick one from All Clad and the Calphalon one. I will get a copper one, for I like how it looks and I will enjoy it for deglazing at times.  It sure does look very beautiful and seems worth it for those special occasions when the total experience rests equally on the presentation as it does on taste and ease of preparation.

Whoa. You do a lot of roasting, dude. In terms of presentation, and I imagine I'm not telling you anything you don't already know... Keep in mind that heating a copper roasting pan in the oven or on the stovetop will cause the copper to discolor, especially when high temperatures are used. A copper roasting pan that has been sitting in a high oven for an hour or two will be quite discolored -- purple, green, red and sort or silvery--pale-yellow discolorations are not uncommon. This means two things: 1) it will take an extra-lot of polishing to make it bright again, and 2) it may look pretty funky for presentation purposes coming out of the oven.

Just my $0.02

[Suvir Saran]

Again, many thanks.

And I like the discolored roasting pans. They actually look good not polished.

And thanks really for all this great advice.

[Richard Kilgore]

slk -- how often does Falk have a sale like the last one you announced?

[slkinsey]

slk -- how often does Falk have a sale like the last one you announced?

Several times a year. I will post any such sales I hear about on eGullet.

[MobyP]

Suvir Saran -

Do you live in England? If you fancied a great holliday, you could do what I and the wife did - drove to the town of Villedieu-le-poeles in Normandy - the home of Mauviel - and go straight to the factory. The prices are much, much cheaper. And the surrounding countryside is beautiful. We loaded up the car, had a lovely weekend, and drove back.

Alternatively you can look here:

Mauviel...

Edited September 20, 2003 by MobyP (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Suvir Saran -

Do you live in England? If you fancied a great holliday, you could do what I and the wife did - drove to the town of Villedieu-le-poeles in Normandy - the home of Mauviel - and go straight to the factory. The prices are much, much cheaper. And the surrounding countryside if beautiful. We loaded up the car, had a lovely weekend, and drove back.

Alternatively you can look here:

Mauviel...

Sounds fabulous!

I live in NYC. But should consider making this adventure a part of an England trip.

Thanks for the idea.

[Bouland]

Mail order Mauviel from E. Dihillerin in Paris is tsill the least expensive way to get the stuff.

[slkinsey]

Mail order Mauviel from E. Dihillerin in Paris is tsill the least expensive way to get the stuff.

It has never been totally clear to me whether Dehillerin represented a significant savings compared to, say, a Falk Culinair sale once you figure in the cost of shipping overseas, the currency exchange charge from your credit card and whatevever taxes are added. I would be very interested to hear from someone in the US who has actually purchased from Dehillerin over the Internet.

For me -- and this is a personal preference, of course -- it would be worth a little extra money to have the convenience of faster delivery and interaction with an English-speaking company based in the US (and subject to US laws should anything go wrong).

[Bouland]

Mail order Mauviel from E. Dihillerin in Paris is tsill the least expensive way to get the stuff.

It has never been totally clear to me whether Dehillerin represented a significant savings compared to, say, a Falk Culinair sale once you figure in the cost of shipping overseas, the currency exchange charge from your credit card and whatevever taxes are added. I would be very interested to hear from someone in the US who has actually purchased from Dehillerin over the Internet.

For me -- and this is a personal preference, of course -- it would be worth a little extra money to have the convenience of faster delivery and interaction with an English-speaking company based in the US (and subject to US laws should anything go wrong).

I purchased pots from Dehillerin on a number of occassions. The total price with shipping was about 130 to 150%, depending on shipping method, of the untaxed price listed in their catalog. Everything arrived fine.

[Richard Kilgore]

So about how much of a savings is that compared to buying Mauviel from W-S?

[oraklet]

please allow me to quote myself from the excellent q&a about stovetop cookware:

"i just found this, and i thought it might be of interest to others:

http://www.clicshop.com/Magasin/artdetable...p9631396.1.html

vat not included, but still the cheapest i've been able to find. shipping to usa is not cheap, though:

http://www.artcooking.com/main/contact/lie...frais_port.html "

they're situated in villedieu-les-poeles, too.

edit: the linx don't work here, though they worked on the other thread. weird. i'll try a link to that, instead:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...&t=25718&st=60&

Edited September 22, 2003 by oraklet (log)

[Bouland]

So about how much of a savings is that compared to buying Mauviel from W-S?

Williams Sonoma only sells the light-weight tableservice copper pots, not the heavy professional grade pots. Even so, when I priced the same size pots that I bought from Dehilerin a few years ago, their price was three to four times what I paid, including shipping, ordering the heavier grade from France.

[Suvir Saran]

I recieved my order from Falk Culinair. It is most impressive and the brushed copper finish will be fantastic I feel. Will certainly need much less care to maintain than the polished copper. Thanks slkinsey for your encouraging words on this company and their product.

I now have their 8" frying pan, the 11" saute pan, 3 Qt Sauciere, 19 Qt Jam Pan (most amazing to look at and to work with), oval au gratin, 3.4 Qt saucepan, 8.5 Qt casserole and the 2 Qt chefs pan.

I also have the butter warmer and the contraption that it goes with. I could not resist the temptation of getting it. It just looked so pretty. It actually is just as attractive and special in reality. I shall use it this winter. Maybe even with some dals... I can prepare a Tadka (seasoned ghee) for the dal on the table. Would be great fun and so very practical.

[Mottmott]

I now have their 8" frying pan, the 11" saute pan, 3 Qt Sauciere, 19 Qt Jam Pan (most amazing to look at and to work with), oval au gratin, 3.4 Qt saucepan, 8.5 Qt casserole and the 2 Qt chefs pan.

Suvir, congrats on the additions to your batterie de cuisine. I'm all envy. Most of my copper dates from the tin age.

I wonder if I could impose on you (or anyone else with a mind to help out) to WEIGH your fry pan and saute pans? None of the web sites give that information which is becoming increasingly useful to me as my joints become less so. I have a 9" Bourgeat evasee that I love, but I worry about the ease of handling anything larger/heavier.

My most recent addition has been a 10" LC sauciere which is ok but I don't love and it discourages me from adding LC saute or fry pans. Only concern about the weight keeps me from ordering some copper today.

About the cleaning of copper. It needn't be a big deal. First, develop a love of patina. Second, Barkeepers will keep copper looking fresh.

[slkinsey]

OK, Suvir... in one fell swoop you have acquired more Falk Culinair than I have.

Seriously, though, if sounds awesome. We await reports of your impressions. If you want to keep the finish bright, definitely go out and buy some Bar Keeper's Friend (and I just noticed you can buy a 40 lb container for 50 bucks on their web site) and some Scotch Brite pads.

[slkinsey]

I wonder if I could impose on you (or anyone else with a mind to help out) to WEIGH your fry pan and saute pans? None of the web sites give that information which is becoming increasingly useful to me as my joints become less so.  I have a 9" Bourgeat evasee that I love, but I worry about the ease of handling anything larger/heavier.

My 11" Mauviel frypan weighs 5.5 pounds

My 11" Falk saucière (aka sauteuse evasée) weighs 8 pounds.

An 11" saute pan should weigh somewhere in between these weights, say, 7 pounds.

Definitely not for one handed flipping when full of food.

(NB: these are alll 2.5 mm)

[Mottmott]

My 11" Mauviel frypan weighs 5.5 pounds

My 11" Falk saucière (aka sauteuse evasée) weighs 8 pounds.

An 11" saute pan should weigh somewhere in between these weights, say, 7 pounds.

Definitely not for one handed flipping when full of food.

(NB: these are alll 2.5 mm)

Thanks.

I can still shake it, but my flipping days are gone unless my wrist repairs itself.

My 8.5 (20cm) copper/ss evasee weighs 4 lb 3 oz;

my 10" (28 cm) LC skillet weighs 5 lb 6 oz (interestingly plain cast iron is lighter)

I use these all the time, so I should be able to move up a bit.

[Suvir Saran]

OK, Suvir... in one fell swoop you have acquired more Falk Culinair than I have. 

Seriously, though, if sounds awesome.  We await reports of your impressions.  If you want to keep the finish bright, definitely go out and buy some Bar Keeper's Friend (and I just noticed you can buy a 40 lb container for 50 bucks on their web site) and some Scotch Brite pads.

I am sure you have plenty of stuff in your kitchen. Something tells me you must have an amazing array of cookware and in many different varieties.

I have used the jam pot and enjoyed it immensely. It is huge...and was so wonderful to prepare jam in.. and I have been wondering about how I can store it so as to also use it as a decorative piece. All my cookware is out in the kitchen as art already.... majority is hanging on pot racks.. and a lot on top of the cabinets.... and some on walls... but this one piece is really amazing to look at.

What else does one use a jam pot for???

Would 40lbs. of Bar Keeper's Friend not be very difficult to store? How long would it last? I have the Falk Culinair pieces and a much larger collection of the Cop R Chef from All Clad, and a couple of Mauviel pieces. But I wonder if 40lbs is still an overkill. What say you?

[Sandra Levine]

I recently bought this one, and it immediately became my favorite pan. It is the first copper pan I've ever owned. My other "good" pots and pans are mostly All-Clad, which I like very much, although I've always wished that they had a curved edge to facilitate pouring. Last year, Williams-Sonoma had a major close-out on Bourgeat when they decided to stop carrying the line. A pan very similar to the Falk Culinair could be had for about the same price, but I hesitated and lost. I am very glad to have found a worthy substitute. (There is something about that Bourgeat finish, however...) Thanks, Sam, for your advice

Edited September 28, 2003 by Sandra Levine (log)

[fifi]

If the jam pot is the one I think it is it would be wonderful for reducing stock to demi-glace.

Don't you really need the turbot steamer?