Dim Sum

[Jason Perlow]

First Ed, thanks for joining us on eGullet!

Dim sum has been a subject of great debate (click) on this site -- where to find the best in New York, and whether San Francisico's Chinatown offers better examples.

Where in Chinatown can the best Dim Sum parlors be found in New York, and which city offers the best, New York or San Francisco?

[eatingwitheddie]

Unfortunately I can't give you an authoritative answer to this question because I am not familiar, except in general terms, with the current crop of SF Chinese restaurants. Since this is a constantly evolving scene - you know how Chinese chefs purportedly move around - I can only comment of what I have experienced. In the early and mid 90's, The Hong Kong Flower Lounge, both the branch in Burlingame and the one on Geary were special. Unfortunately, they are gone now, though I've heard that whatever restaurant is occupying their former Geary Street space is quite good. But the fact is I just don't know about SF in 2002. Anyway I would be shocked if you couldn't find more interesting food in LA which at this point far surpasses SF in the size and variety of the Chinese restaurant community. Perhaps Jonathon Gold @ Gourmet would have a bunch of information about this. He's interested and it's his native turf.

In NYC, the vast majority of dim sum is pretty good but rarely outstanding. And it matters which items you order in which restaurants.

For instance, some favorites include:

1) Sweet & Tart, 20 Mott or Flushing - For my money the best Cantonese dumpling makers we have, but with limitations - I love that you order off a menu - not as much fun as carts but the upside is that everything is cooked to order and therefore the dumplings/skins are rarely overcooked. The shrimp and watercress dumplings here are as good as they get (they're served in soup w/wo noodles - more dumplings if you don't get noodles) as are the unusual and very juicy Cantonese version of fried dumplings. Also this stuff is available all the time, not just from 10-3, and that is a good thing. I often order a big glass of freshly squeezed orange or watermelon juice and some dim sum here. Dinner is ordered off an entirely different menu and usually is reasonably good. Try ordering sliced beef with fried bread and 1/2 a crispy chicken with crispy garlic (sometimes called 'golden sands').

2) The Golden Unicorn, 18 East Bway - A good choice for good quality, service and consistancy over many years. Traditional carts.

3) King's Seafood Palace?, 6th Ave and 62nd St in Bklyn - I like this place a lot. It's in a converted industrial building 2 blocks off the main 8th Ave Bklyn chinatown drag. A large HK style Cantonese with low prices and a good creative kitchen. When we were here last month their Har Kow (shrimp dumplings) were fashioned to look like little bunny rabbits with eyes and ears - any dim sum chef who knows how and goes to the trouble of doing this, especially on such a large scale, has his act together. If you're looking for a fun off-beat place to go, try this.

4) New Green Bo on Doyers St. has a Shanghai kitchen and doesn't serve dim sum, but they do have kicking fried dumplings - my vote for best in the industry. You might find equally good ones, but when they take the time and care to cook them properly, and they usually do, you won't find better (anywhere). Their steamed veg dumplings are really good as well. Soup Dumplings are just good - not great. The fried dumplings here are a variation on the traditional crescent shape - a little bit straighter with skins on the thin side - and the dumplings are left almost open at their ends - this style is sometimes referred to as a Dragon's Eye Dumpling. This variation is associated with a particular city in central eastern China whose name I don't recall at the moment.

If you want the really good s---, the best North American dim sum or dim sum that is as good as you can get anywhere, it is most likely found in Vancouver, where the cooking quality in the best places is virtually equal to that of Hong Kong's best. Last month we were wowed by some of the things we tried at both branches of Sun Sai Wah, which year after year is Vancouver's most highly rated Chinese restaurant. A large Hong Kong style Cantonese which features classic banquets as well as a la carte and daytime dim sum, Sun Sai Wah has unusual variety - a number on items that I haven't seen in Hong Kong let alone New York - and outstanding quality - GREAT really. Their signature Squab, an item I eat but don't usually go out of my way to order, could not have been better. The only problem was that I couldn't eat there more often, and with more friends, so that I could sample everything! Clean and attractive surroundings combined with really good hospitality made this an impressive restaurant indeed. Plus Vancouver has many, many other Chinese restaurants, both funky and upscale, which are worth checking out. I'm certain one could find lots more exciting Chinese cooking in this town. Can't wait to try! (not to mention the favorable exchange rates and Vancouver's great new-style Indian restaurant called Vij - WOW)

[Bux]

Missing from this discussion is one of my favorite restaurants not just for dim sum and dumplings, but for dinner as well. That's Dim Sum GoGo. I know they've changed chefs at least once since they opened with a chef from Hong Kong and perhaps I've noticed some changes--not for the better--but it's still a favorite. Although in some ways the offerings are limited in scope, the array of dumplings is fascinating and very fine to my taste.

Although I've had disappointments on the dinner menu, and those have been with the most expensive dishes such as lobster, I've been exceptionally pleased with many of the inexpensive offerings and have found the vegetables often the prize dishes or the best component of the non-vegetarian dishes. One of the things noted by most of the people I bring there is the almost complete absence of sauces. I think many westerners are turned off Chinese food by the gloppy corn starched sauces all too common in many restaurants.

[Jason Perlow]

I think many westerners are turned off Chinese food by the gloppy corn starched sauces all too common in many restaurants.

True Hong-Kong style food is not gloppy. The problem is that for the most part, Amercian-style Chinese Food which evolved from the first Chinese immigrants that came to the US from guangdong in the 1860's and opened restaurants in San Francisco and NY in the 1900s-1920's began to mold their food to American tastes, which was the gloppy Chop Suey stuff. Obviously if you go to Hong Kong today, its nothing like that kind of food.

Ed, what would you say are the best examples of "pure" Cantonese/HK style cusine in NY, Dim Sum shops not included (unless they do regular dishes really well too)? Same places you mentioned above or not? And are all good HK-style restaurants seafood palaces?

[Bux]

True Hong-Kong style food is not gloppy.

I'm well aware of that, but many of the people I've taken to Dim Sum GoGo are not even from the NY area. Knowing how much gloppy sauce I can run across in Chinatown, I can only imagine what passes for Chinese food in some parts of the country. A French friend who always shied away from eating Chinese food, was an instant devotee of Dim Sum GoGo.

[Jason Perlow]

Cantonese food has a bad reputation in other parts of the country, no doubt.

[Bux]

I think Cantonese food has a bad reputation among less knowledgeable fans of Chinese food in NY. Cantonese food is likely the most common Chinese restaurant food in, and outside, or NY. A lot of it is neither good nor authentic. Many New Yorkers were bowled over by the spiciness of Sichuan and later Hunan food and then by Shanghai food as they became available in restaurants. Partially diners were impressed because they offered new tastes, but to some extent these restaurants arrived when there was a western audience for better Chinese food. The Cantonese restaurants had to overcome a long history of catering to American tastes while the sophiticated audiences went over the newer cuisines. From the little I know, Cantonese may be the finest of all the Chinese regional cuisines. I think it's the most delicate. Ed will let us know if I'm wrong.

[eatingwitheddie]

From the little I know, Cantonese may be the finest of all the Chinese regional cuisines. I think it's the most delicate. Ed will let us know if I'm wrong.

CANTONESE FOOD - RESPONDING TO BUX AND JASON

Trends in the in Chinese food scene in the US have been chronicled in some of my earlier posts on eGullet.

During the last five years Shanghai food has made inroads as the next 'in' regional Chinese cuisine. Not only in NY, but in London, Paris, LA and SF, Shanghai eateries have sprung up all over. Soup Dumplings, once unique and hard to find, are regularly available at many different venues. Since Shanghai is among the most important and fast growing/changing cities on the planet I think that we can expect this trend to become more of the status quo.

Nevertheless, clearly the most exciting growth part of the industry has been authentic HK style Canonese cooking. Very different than the Americanized version that many of us took for 'Chinese food', large Cantonese restaurants featuring clean natural tasting dishes have been the tip of the iceberg for some time now. The cooking is typically light, and strives to bring out the natural flavors of whatever the main event is. A delicately steamed (recently) live fish is prototypical of this sensibility.

The gloppy cornstarch laden 'chop suey' cooking in old-fashioned Americanized Chinese restaurants is a far cry from a beautifully pan-fried grey sole, or a crisp skinned fresh killed chicken topped with golden sands (crispy minced shallots and garlic). This is a delicate cuisine that is simultaneously elaborate and simple, and it is widely available where ever there is a substantial Chinese population. To my mind it represents the 'growth 'part of the industry and has been for years. Unfortunately, after we all got used to the spicy, salty, and sweet palate of Szechuan and Hunan, many of us don't recogniuze a good thing when we see it. As a result most of the restaurants featuring HK Cantonese dishes cater to the Asian community not the Caucasian one. In NYC they are in Flushing or one of our Chinatowns not in midtown.

[eatingwitheddie]

Missing from this discussion is one of my favorite restaurants not just for dim sum and dumplings, but for dinner as well. That's Dim Sum GoGo.

Bux

My experience at Dim Sum GoGo is somewhat limited, and that is because when I went there (when they first opened perhaps 3 years ago) I had a mixed reaction.

First of all you must understand my point of view: I am interested in invention, but basically I am a traditionalist. When someone gets inventive they better be damn good, or I'll find it a turn off. For example, in my experience Pierre Gagnaire in Paris really pulls it off with his 'crazy', brilliant, and highly personal cuisine.

When I first tried 'GoGo' I sampled all their dumplings. I found that for my taste the skins weren't quite right, either a little light or heavy, or lacking a glutinous slightly chewy quality that I find in the best dim sum. Then I asked myself this question: how do these dumplings compare to a really well made and freshly steamed Har Kow (shrimp dumpling). Is it as exciting? For my money the items I tried were fresh, wholesome, interesting (we know what that's a euphemism for), and just slightly off. There wasn't one that I would prefer to one of Sweet & Tart's Shrimp & Watercress Dumplings.

The main dishes I had on this occaision were good. I particularly recollect a 1/2 chicken: again the one topped with crispy shallots and garlic. From a culinary point of view I found the place good and interesting yet lacking a little something. For whatever reason I wasn't excited to return and explore some more. You should also know the Stephen Lo, one of the principals, and Colette Rossant, a partner and the consultant to the project are acquaintances and I wish them well.

Then about 18 months ago I had a powerhouse lunch there where the owners pulled out all the stops. My dining companions, who were known to the house, were Alice & Calvin Trillin, and THE Alice, Alice Waters! I had exactly the same reaction as before: really interesting, pretty good, but somehow it didn't do it for me. Since I dine or market in Chinatown many times a week I have ample opportunity to revisit, but have chosen not to. Though if the truth were told, I was thinking of going there just the other day, wondering about the place and why it didn't do more for me. Since I love the industry I get much more pleasure in supporting rather than tearing apart places like this. Probably your post will get me back there soon. Thanks for the unintentional pin in the tush!

[Bux]

I understand your hesitancy to embrace the dumpling wrappers and I won't under emphasize the importance of the wrapper. To some extent their success in my mind (or relative to my palatte) may, to a great degree, be that they are unique. I have to go back to Sweet & Tart and try their watercress and shrimp dumplings. I've been there once or twice, but haven't been all that comfortable with the menu yet.

When you mentioned chicken topped with golden sands two posts back I immediately thought of the chicken dish Dim Sum GoGo calls "with fried garlic shoots," or soemthing like that. Truthfully, I don't know where else that kind of food is found in Chinatown. Funky Broome comes to mind. I've really enjoyed some of the food there, but have found the noise level deafening and about half the seats seem to be positioned so that a spotlight is in the diner's eyes. At some point the ambience starts to play a factor in my choice of restaurants.