Fifth Floor

[Aaron T]

I have been meaning to post about my dinner at the Fifth Floor for a few weeks, but am finally getting around to it. I was curious to taste what chef Gras was currently serving as I had previously enjoyed his cooking at Peacock Alley in New York City.

I had several dishes. The food was organized by category, rather than appetizers & entrees: Ocean, Field & Forest, Farm. Usually I find this kind of thing too pretentious, but it seemed to work there. I had several dishes paired with suggested wines.

I began with "Oh Toro" - described on the menu as "finely sliced raw blue fin tuna belly, lime and Hawaiian salt." (not just any salt will do, apparently.) This was paired with a Nigl Reisling from Austria. The tuna tasted really fresh and I liked the citrus of the lime.

Next I had "Hudson Valley Foie Gras" from the farm section. It was served with a Savenniers 1999 Chenin Blanc. The dish is described as "roasted with Indonesian peppercorn, chanterelles, and corn sorbet." Again, I insisted on the Indonesian peppersorn in favor of the more common Argentenian peppercorn, which was just too common for me. This dish was served beautifully. The fois gras was served on top of the chanterelles, which were on top of a corn puree. Then fois gras jus was poured on top of it. In addition an ice-cream sundae style dish was brought out with corn sorbet, lastly, a bowl of popcorn was brought out for texture, where more typically on emight be served a brioche. The popcorn was a nice texture to the velvety fois, which was superb. The peppercorns and the chanterelles gave it a nice flavor. The corn sorbet was interesting, as it tasted like eating corn on the cob - but ice cream. Sweet and strange, but good. I liked the salt of the popcorn as well. I didn't eat many of the mushrooms as they are not my fave. The wine complemented the fois and was not overwhelmed by it.

Lastly, I had "Lamb" described as "loin slowly baked with dates, black cumin and endives, couscous." It was delicious. It tasted lammy and the dates and cumin gave it an eastern flavor that went well with the couscous. This dish was served with a syrah, a 1999 St. Joseph Offerus. ( The waiter wrote down the wines for me I can't read all of what he wrote, so my apologies for misspellings as I am not a wine expert.) The wine was rich and a little spicy.

I skipped dessert as I was full, but did have some tea, and I am glad I did as this was one of the nicest after dinner tea services I have had. They had an extensive tea list. I had mint melange. The tea was loose tea (not in a bag). They brought out sugar, brown sugar, honey, milk and something else as options to pour in the tea. I added a little honey & sugar and it was great. It was so good I had them bring more hot water and I had some more. It was a great relaxing way to end such a delicious meal.

Chef Gras's cooking was similar to what he had been serving in New York, although this menu had a clearer indication of what might be an entree (price). The service was friendly and informative but not overly familiar. Suprisingly for a Thursday night at prime time there were several tables empty. Perhaps it is the economy. I was able to walk in without a reservation and was accomodated without trouble, as my previous plans had changed at the last minute. My meal was roughly $150-$160 all inclusive. I would return, if I am in the Bay Area again soon.

[Rail Paul]

Aaron T -

Thanks for a most interesting review. I'm happy your enjoyed your meal.

The Pacific rim certainly has made an impact on Chef Gras, based on the items you described. I wonder if his Peacock Alley venture would have survived had it more structure? Craft not withstanding, I suspect most diners expect the kitchen to present them with some organization to their meal.

Paul

[Stone]

Last night I took a friend to Fifth Floor Restaurant for a belated birthday dinner. Having recently dined at French Laundry and Danko, Fifth Floor was hot on my list of destinations. (I'm not sure what's left. Fluer D'Lys? Masas?) I'd been told by a number of people that it offered the best dining within the city limits. Certainly, the press cannot get enough of Chef Laurent Gras, formerly of New York's Peacock alley. It was a great evening, with great food.

The restaurant is, not surprisingly, on the fifth floor of the Hotel Palomar in downtown SF. It was a little strange to see doors to guest rooms across the hall from the restaurant itself, but I'm not sure why. With dark paneling and an odd choice of lighted glass panels (click here for their website with a photo), I thought the restaurant came the closest to the feel of a mid-town New York establishment. Add to that the fact that I saw more men in dark business suits last night than I've seen in the past three years. I thought the room was more businesslike than Danko and certainly a lot less comfortable than FL on a Saturday afternoon. The large room is separated by a panel (which can almost be made out just to the right on the website photo), and on the other side is a larger, slightly brighter dining room. We were placed at a deuce against the panel in the center of the room. A bit noisy, and not as cozy as the two booths on the side (towards the left of the photo) which were empty when we arrived. (Although the restaurant was crowded, I don't believe it was full at any time during the evening, but I couldn't see into the other room.)

The staff was as terrific as you would expect. The floor manager, John, stopped by often to make sure we were happy and had everything we needed. The servers scurried about everywhere, but without the least bit of distraction. I did think their outfits were slightly humorous -- with black pants, clean white shirts and sleeveless vests, they were positively colonial. I almost expected them to hand out a long, white clay pipe at some point during the evening. They explained the dishes perfectly (although I did not quiz them about the butter or the salt).

The menu was presented immediately, and we ordered a glass of Soter “Beacon Hill” Rosé, Willamette Valley 1997. I'm not a fan of champagne or sparkling wines, but I enjoyed this quite a bit. I had brought a bottle of Haut Brion '94, which they spirited away to a decanter. I thought the HB was very good, but what do I know? It didn't have a strong fruit flavor, but there was nothing sharp or overly acidic about it. It had a nice cool feel on the tongue, like a silk sheet, and little tannin. I like it, but as my friend pointed out, I probably would have been just as happy with a good IPA.

We decided on the tasting menu (the complete winter menu, with slight variation from what we were offered, can be found here), with an extra foie gras course. I asked to substitute the geoduck for the first course, and the waiter assured me that he had some pull with the kitchen and could get it done. (Yes, Laurent was cooking that night, and, I'm told, every night unless he's out of town for a special engagement.)

We each received a different amuse. She had a poached shrimp (I forget the preparation), that offered a strong shrimp flavor without being over powering. The meat was very firm, and enjoyable. Mine was a scoop of tuna tartare (apologies for the poor photography throughout):

It was a dense, rounded scoop of cool, minced tuna, with some chive and a smidge of gray Hawaiian sea salt on top. In addition to the sea salt, there appeared to be some grains of minced candied ginger, but I could be mistaken. It sat perfectly in it's cup, with a subtle, bright ring of oil at the juncture of tuna and china. The flavor of the tuna was somewhat muted, but I've never found tuna to be particularly bold. The salt added a surprisingly amount of texture and accented the fish well without over powering. Very nice for the start.

Geoduck Clams – Finely sliced and seasoned with lime and fresh wasabi:

The geoduck (photos of which can be seen in this previous thread) came in a small heap in the center of a large plate. It was shaved and minced, and served ceviche style, marinated with olive oil, lime and wasabi, but visually appeared to be just the slightly pinkish meat of the clam. I was looking forward to this, as I've never tasted this bivalve behemoth. The first bite virtually exploded with the sea and was a bit of a shock. The flavor was strong and aggressive, and did not remind me at all of clam. However, it was not the least bit "fishy" or unpleasant. The texture of the clam was wonderful. It was cool and crisp with a fresh snap, similar to the suckers from an octopus tentacle. The acid from the lime added a wonderful cleansing sensation. And as I continued with the dish, the strong clam flavor subsided and the flavor of the lime and oil came out. I don't know if that is endemic in the clam (that the flavor fades quickly) or the preparation, but I thought it was necessary. I think if the original strength continued it would have been unpleasantly overpowering. I never noticed the wasabi in the marinade, but it wasn't missed.

Sea Scallop - Sauvignon Blanc reduced with passion fruit, sautéed cauliflower

The scallop (singular) was outstanding:

A completely different animal from the one I raved about at Danko, this sat softly in a warm, brownish broth and was covered by a thin slice of roasted cauliflower. The meat was sweet and juicy and contrasted well with the crisp, caramelized vegetable. But the broth was what set this apart. Wine with a little beef jus, it was infused with vanilla and passion fruit. The passion fruit was very subtle and I did not specifically discern its flavor (which is good for me as I don't particularly like citrus in main courses), but the vanilla flavor was warm, and soft, and inviting. It wafted up like a smooth, gentle cloud, with hints of cocoa or even coffee. It was great.

A final thought on the first courses. They were small. Unless someone tells me that geoduck is very expensive (I don't think it is) or requires a great amount of preparation (such as pounding, marinated, caressing or cajoling), I think the $24 menu charge cannot be justified (although I'm certain that a larger portion is offered when not part of the tasting menu). The scallop, although superb, was also just too small. It was not a big, plump, ocean scallop. Roughly the size of a large jujyfruit, I don't see how the restaurant can serve the one (as noted, the menu lists "scallop" singular) for $18. (I know that in another thread I said that once one agrees to eat at a restaurant like this they waive the right to complain about prices, but . . . .)

Lobster Cappuccino - Lobster broth emulsified with chestnuts, prawns and sautéed lobster

I did not photograph this, as it looked like a light brown, creamy broth. But it tasted like a lobster explosion. The bowl is set in front of the diner with one shrimp and a piece of lobster meat topped by a quenelle of whipped cream infused with lobster butter. The hot chestnut infused lobster broth is poured directly onto the cream, resulting in a foamy brown soup that looks like, you guessed it, cappuccino. My first realization upon tasting the soup is that it was hot. Of course, but looking back at Danko and French Laundry, I realized that none of the dishes were served particularly hot. I don't know why this surprised me, but it was a pleasant surprise. The second realization was that it was wonderful. Each spoonful of broth carried with it a strong, sweet taste of lobster. The cream added just the right amount of sharpness that opened up the tastebuds to the lobster broth without at all approaching the richness of a bisque. The chestnut flavor was present only a subtle nuttiness in the background and to provide color. (The one small shrimp and small piece of lobster were afterthoughts.)

Skate Wing - Caramelized, Bordelaise sauce and artichokes

Again, terrific. I love skate. The texture of the meat usually reminds me of a thin, well-tenderized skirt steak. And it seems to crisp so well. This dish was all that and more. The meat naturally separates into ribbons of muscle. The searing left the top wonderfully crisp and bursting with an almost meaty flavor. But just underneath was soft, moist, white flesh. More tender than I've usually experienced with skate, and with an easy flavor. (I've read that skate can have an ammonia-like flavor -- nothing even resembling that here.) The contrasting texture and flavor of the meat with the caramelized surface was excellent. Underneath the fish was a puree of potato and artichoke that smooth as silk and carried the buttery flavor of the artichoke. Laid on top were small slices of artichoke heart that could not have been cooked for longer than a quick blanche as they were crunchy and delicious. Overall, the smooth puree, crunch of the heart, soft meat and crisp caramelization made for a wonderful dish.

Hudson Valley Foie Gras - Sautéed with licorice, quince "spring rolls," and bean sprouts, dipping sauce

Spectacular. Absolutely spectacular. Heads and shoulders above what I'd received at Danko, the glistening brown nugget of foie gras must be what all the fuss is about. The foie was served on a spartan plate with a small quince spring roll, and some thin slices of apple edged with chive. On another plate we were served a wedge of butter lettuce and a sweet (I assume quince) dipping sauce. The server suggested that the foie be eaten "Vietnamese" style by wrapping it in some lettuce and dipping it the sauce. I tried that with the first slice of foie, but quickly abandoned it. Why put this perfection in a sweet sauce?

The foie came out glistening with the slightest layer of melted fat that was smooth and comfortable. It was seared brown and cooked through (my piece at Danko seemed undercooked and loose) bringing out both flavor and texture. The striking part to me was the anise sprinkled on top. The flavor of the licorice was subtle and delayed. But the feel was alive. The volatile oils in the anise powder mixed with the fat of the foie and vaporized in the mouth to coat tongue, palate and gullet with an electric tingle. Even my finicky date -- who was just seconds from delivering the entire piece of "liver" to my plate before trying it -- marveled at the dish.

The spring roll was good, but didn't compare. It was crisp, and filled with a sweet, smooth paste that didn't excite me very much. I thought the dipping sauce a little too sweet. The only reason one should let it come close to the foie is if you don't like foie.

Squab Breast -Roasted with almonds and cumin, caramelized dumpling and salsify-

(Oops, I got carried away.)

Well, if I didn't dive into this one too soon, you would see a surprisingly large breast of squab covered in a copious pile of sliced, roasted almonds, next to a thin, golden ravioli.

The squab breast was better than I expected. I usually avoid squab, quail and other little morsels. Why bother? But this was a large, thick, meaty piece of breast, with a good layer of fat hidden under the almond. The meat was bright pink in color, dense and bursting with flavor. I'm undecided about the almonds though. At first, the nuttiness complimented the dish well, but I think there were too many of them. Roasted as they were, the let out a slight bitterness that grew with each bite, and I think the crunch of the nuts distracted from the dense texture of the flesh. Also, the almonds prevented the skin on the breast from crisping (something prevented it).

The ravioli, however, was perhaps my favorite part of the evening. It was filled with a small bit of confit from the squab leg, some more foie and black bits of chopped enoki mushrooms. The flavor was woodsy, intense and complete. Each bite was like a walk in the woods after warm rain. The mushrooms and duck grew together create a huge flavor in each small bite, with the foie adding smoothness to each chew. Really good. (As I run short of adjectives.)

Pork Belly - Black pepper crusted, in truffle infused pork jus, with potato and apple.

The final savory course was a new to the menu. Two large slices of pork belly, heavily crusted with black pepper on the meat side, and golden crisp on the skin side. A truffle infused pork jus was spooned over the top, and it was served with two rounds of potato and a square of tart roasted apple.

The pork belly was quite different from the one I'd recently had at French Laundry. FL's was a rectangular block of meat, with crisp, thinly scored skin on top, and moist, tender brown flesh beneath. Wonderful, understated, overachieving.

Last night's slices of pork belly were much more reminiscent of the bacon itself. The server explained that it was meant to be eaten "vertically", with each slice carrying with it the rainbow from the coarse black pepper, the smoky pork meat, the velvety fat and the crisp skin. Each component was, indeed, perfectly prepared all in the one slice. The pepper was strong, but not overpowering. The bacon meat was bright pink and beautiful, with firm, textured meat and a slight smokiness. The soft, white fat melted around the entire mouthful to carry all of the flavors deep into your tastebuds, and the crisp golden skin remained so even with the jus. After a few bits I realized that I preferred to separate the dish, eating a bite of pepper crust meat first, followed by a bite of the fat and skin. The pepper and meat provided the most intense flavor of the night (followed closely by that ravioli). The creamy fat and the crisp skin brought down the intensity of the meat portion and highlighted more the contrast in textures.

The potato rounds were the only disappointment of the evening. Whatever flavor they may have had was completely hidden by the pork, and they're texture was slightly undercooked. The apple, on the other hand, surprised me. It was moist, tart and sweet, as if pulled out of a pie and still retained all of its crunch. Both apple and potato appeared to have been coated in a thin layer of gellee (?) the flavor of which did not come through.

With the pork belly I had a glass of Prat & Symington's Chryseia, from Douro valley in Portugal. I had tried this a few nights earlier, and really enjoyed it because it was so different. Dark red in color, the bouquet was heavy and musky with the flavor of black olives. The taste, too, was oily, but not in the least unpleasant and certainly with no lingering oily feel. Whereas the Haut Brion felt like a smooth sheet, the Chryseia felt like a warm blanket on the tongue.

Meyer Lemon Souffle, Crème Anglais

For dessert we received a terrific meyer lemon soufflé that, again, surprised me by turning something I don't particularly like into something wonderful. I usually find soufflé too eggy, but this was anything but. The bright lemon yellow soufflé rode high above the top of the ramekin without wilting over the side. The server pierced the top with a spoon and poured in about half the little pitcher of smooth crème anglais. The rest, he said, could be added at will, or just drunk out of the pitcher. The first bite of the soufflé tasted more like lemon spongecake than soufflé. The sharp, but sweet citrus of the meyer lemon jolted your mouth awake to accept the soft sweet coat of crème anglais. Towards the bottom, more of the egg flavor came through, but this remained softened by the lemon. The remainder of the crème anglais tasted wonderful, though I admit I used a spoon.

Oddly, no one asked if we wanted coffee until the petit fours were brought. No big deal, because we didn't. The four petit fours were brought out with the check. Between the two, the fours were definitely superior.

And then we left.

(I anyone knows a good liposuctionist, please send me a referral. I'm carrying around about 50 "fight club" bars of soap I need to get rid of. Also, please send me recipes for pasta and butter, as that's about all I can afford for the next two months or so.)

Edited March 14, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Explorer]

Thanks for a terrific report. I wished I could have had the same experience at a recent belated birthday dinner at Susur Lee which was disastrous (a report is being prepared). Just curious:

- what wa$$$$ the bill?

- how did they know to write "belated birthday"

- what did they say when you wanted to take pics?

[Jason Perlow]

Nice writeup. I was thoroughly impressed with the restaurant when I went, about a year ago.

[Fat Guy]

Better or worse, overall, than FL?

[Jason Perlow]

Better or worse, overall, than FL?

Jesus, what a loaded question...

[Steve Klc]

Stone--did you select the dessert or was that the tasting menu item? Do you recall any of the other choices and whether they matched up with the link you provided? Was the name of the pastry chef mentioned on the menu?

No pre-dessert or amuse?

Also--your souffle seems way traditional, so, too, do most of the desserts as listed on the website, with a tweak here or there of a spice or unexpected ingredient, like the blood orange with chocolate. The big exception being the banana and avocado parfait with coconut milk. But descriptions can be misleading: were you able to observe anything about the presentation of these desserts that said "I'm as elegant, reworked, or reinvented a presentation as the food?"

What do you remember about the "fours?" And did you just get four--two each of a kind?

No pre-dessert and skimpy petits fours--at these prices? Is it possible you received less because you did the tasting menu rather than a la carte?

[Wilfrid]

Absorbing. I recall a delicious skate preparation with a red pepper sauce which Gras offered at the strangely deserted Peacock Alley. I do hate those big plates with the little indents in the middle - Le Bernardin and March are among the NYC restaurants which are fond of them. If they're going to serve a tiny bowl of something for $24, it insults the diner's intelligence to pretend it's a big dish. All the portions there look pretty small, but I guess there were a lot of courses.

Good to know Gras has found a suitable showcase for his work.

[Stone]

FG -- I'm thinking about that one. One problem is that FL was 6 weeks ago, and memories fade. Also, FL was the first experience like that I'd ever really paid attention to. I'd say this beat Danko, but more because, as I mentioned in the Danko review, many of those dishes were very familiar. GD did them much better than usual, but they were familiar. FF wasn't. One quick thought is that FF's meat dishes were bolder. FF's squab easily beat FL's pan-roasted veal. The two pork belly's were each terrific, but very different reditions of the ingredient.

I did think that FF's presentations weren't very spectacular. Lots of empty white plate. If you look at the photos on their websites, you see some very intrictate presentations. I don't think anything we got looked that pretty. (Danko's presentations were much bolder in color and construction.)

Steve -- glad you asked. I was trailing asleep when I got to the desssert part. They did not ask what we wanted for dessert (FL didn't either, Danko did), and so I didn't really look at the menu. We did have a dessert amuse -- a little pot of custard with some chopped blood orange. (I think.) It wasn't great. The custard had broken up (kind of like broken bits of yogurt sitting in the yogut liquid -- bad description) and I don't recall that the flavor was anything special.

There were four petit fours (go figure). I must say that by the end, I was stuffed and tired, so I only nibbled. By far the best was a grapefruit . . . I don't know what it's called. A hard jelly candy? Like the brightly colored fruit slices for Passover? It was dark brown in color and coated with large grain sugar. I had no expectation that it was grapefruit, and the flavor was intense. Also, it wasn't rich or heavy, which was perfect. Another was a small macaroon pyramid. I don't really memeber it. There was a thin slice of chocolate fudge that was good, but I would have enjoyed it more if I wasn't so full. Finally, a dark chocolate square flavored with a strong orange liqour. Again, too rich for me at the end of the evening.

As I recall, I wasn't terribly impressed with FL's desserts also. In both instances, I was damn full and tired. And for my prefernces, if I was to have more food, I would have preferred another slice of pork belly or a ravioli (FF) or another crepe filled with lobster (FL). But, duh, who wouldn't.

Wilfrid -- none of the portions were particularly large, although the pork belly wasn't small, especially considering the strong flavor. I stopped the bread train after two servings, and still did not want for food.

[Stone]

Better or worse, overall, than FL?

Jesus, what a loaded question...

Fifth Floor did not hide behind butter at all, FL did in almost every dish. (How's that for a loaded response?)

Explorer -- the bill came to $360, including a $30 corkage fee. They asked if it was a special occasion, and we explained that we had to cancel birthday reservations back in December. No one said nothing about taking pictures (I didn't use a flash until the last shot when there was only two more tables left in our section, both behind and a few away), but I'm told that people behind me were staring.

Edited March 14, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Fat Guy]

If you look at the photos on their websites, you see some very intrictate presentations.  I don't think anything we got looked that pretty.

I've noticed that, in high-end French restaurants more than in American ones, there's often a major difference in presentation between a la carte and degustation plates. The dishes from the carte tend to be heavily constructed -- often manipulated tableside, and sometimes even served on multiple plates. The degustation dishes, on the other hand, tend to have fewer components and are often presented in a minimalist fashion. Not always, but often.

Steve K: Are there many good pastry chefs working in California? Or, rather, are there many good pastry chefs at good restaurants, where the restaurant gives sufficient support and credit to pastry? I've found that, overall, desserts are the weakest link in any fine-dining meal out West.

[Beachfan]

Excellent post, I enjoy your writing style. Most of the food sounded savory indeed.

Sweet things are somewhat of a classical pairing with fois gras. Did you object to the general flavor combination, or did you think the accompanying sauce was not well done?

[Stone]

Sweet things are somewhat of a classical pairing with fois gras.  Did you object to the general flavor combination, or did you think the accompanying sauce was not well done?

I thought the dipping sauce was too sweet for my liking, but it was probably exactly what the restaurant wanted. I generally don't like things too sweet in my savory courses. Odd, because I love Asian food, and there's often a sweetness to the dishes, but it's usually hovering in the background. Also, FF's dipping sauce had quite a bit of citrus, something else I'm not a fan of. I think that the sauce, especially if joined with the cold, wet, crunch of the lettuce, would have completely distracted from the remarkable flavor and, more importantly, mouthfeel of the foie. The combination of the anise powder and the fat from the foie was far too good to mask with the sauce.

[Fat Guy]

Stone, I think the whole set of assumptions regarding foie gras paired with sweet stuff needs reevaluation. Over time I've grown far more partial to foie gras with savory accompaniments -- especially spices.

[Stone]

Stone, I think the whole set of assumptions regarding foie gras paired with sweet stuff needs reevaluation. Over time I've grown far more partial to foie gras with savory accompaniments -- especially spices.

I feel the same way about the ubiquitous pairing of apples and raisins with pork. Why spoil that bold, textured pig with a fruit sauce that should be spooned over vanilla ice cream? But that's just me.

Edited March 14, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Steve Klc]

Stone--pate de fruit?

Shaw--clearly the desserts were the weakest link on my trips West as well, it's where I was wondering if Stone might be trying to go if I gave him the opening. You'd think if any elite West coast restaurant would have an imaginative, creative, interesting dessert program it would be at a high end East Coast restaurant with a NY tested French chef like Laurent Gras who just happened to be cooking in SF, wouldn't you? Someone who was competing with the likes of a Cello or Atelier, no? You're gonna get me in hot water but yes, it seems few on the West Coast, especially in the food media, realize how underserved and/or poor their dessert programs are as a rule compared to elite restaurants in Chicago or New York. It might stem from viewing Nancy Silverton as a great pastry chef rather than the baker she is or Alice Waters and this business of impeccable fruits presented very simply with little hint of the interest, finesse or refinement that's capable of being achieved in desserts. I'm not sure, I don't get West enough to see if the situation has improved.

The problem of being overfed by a chef to the point of savory saturation, leaving no room for dessert of any kind, unfortunately is common on both coasts. That's why I always appreciate dynamic chef/pastry chef teams who work together for a complete meal, where desserts are integrated with the style of the meal which preceded it and not an afterthought. I'm not as current on the scene as I could be--perhaps it has improved--and for the record, the desserts from the FL in the summer of 2001 were fantastic. But then they were being made by a French ex-New Yorker.

Edited March 14, 2003 by Steve Klc (log)

[awbrig]

Did you get a chance to meet Belinda Chang?

[carpet bagger]

Wow where do I begin? First I want to say thank you because your descriptions are so perfect even without the pictures. Adding the pictures completed my experience of enjoying the meal vicariously. Living in L.A. means it could be a while before I get to taste this for myself. I would like to at least leave the tip. As far as the geoduck, it is actually very expensive in sushi bars. If the quality is perfect the experience is to. It has to be as you described pink and bright, crunchy. Then it is exquisite. What a fabulous description you gave. Thank you!!

[Beachfan]

Stone, I think the whole set of assumptions regarding foie gras paired with sweet stuff needs reevaluation. Over time I've grown far more partial to foie gras with savory accompaniments -- especially spices.

More d'Yquem for me .

[Stone]

Shaw--clearly the desserts were the weakest link on my trips West as well, it's where I was wondering if Stone might be trying to go if I gave him the opening.

I'm just learning how to read the clues I get from women. I've obviously got years before I understand pastry chefs.

[jparrott]

Over time I've grown far more partial to foie gras with savory accompaniments -- especially spices.

And red burgundy.

Finally, someone says what needs to be said.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The degustation dishes, on the other hand, tend to have fewer components and are often presented in a minimalist fashion. Not always, but often.

Fat Guy - Did you ever stop to think it's because in a degustation the portions are smaller because you are eating 6-8 (or possibly more) savory courses instead of just two?

I don't mind when Foie gras is paired with something sweet. It's just that raisins and apples are redundant at this point. At Atelier on Tuesday night, they paired it with sliced endive. I have had Foie with braised endive in the past but never with raw. It was nice and the crunch of the endive and slight bitterness went well with the Foie. Basil also goes well with Foie and I've had a terrine where there is a thin layer of chopped basil in the middle of the terrine. The thing about it is, Foie is very subtle in many ways and it is easy to drown out with strong flavors. So when you pair it with something savory, it needs to be a very delicate preparation. But sweet things do not clash at all so you can pretty much slather the Foie in whatever it is.

Stone - You mean I spent all that time pouring over their wine list for you and you BYO'd? Sheesh. As for the '94 Haut Brion, I haven't had the wine in a while but it probably didn't taste fruity because it is closed at the moment. That means the tannic acid in the wine is currently dominating the fruit in terms of flavor.

Edited March 14, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Fat Guy]

Fat Guy - Did you ever stop to think it's because in a degustation the portions are smaller because you are eating 6-8 (or possibly more) savory courses instead of just two?

A kitchen can make a half-portion, quarter-portion, or whatever and present it as the Mini Me version of the larger dish, plated and garnished identically save for size. Some restaurants do that, especially when they do greatest-hits tasting menus consisting of scaled-down portions of their signature dishes. I think the explanation is not size-related. It has to do with labor, of course, and with the limits of the palate, but also with the goals of a degustation as a true menu of tastes as opposed to a collection of signatures. It's the difference between a tasting menu and a menu tasting. In a tasting menu, many chefs, especially French ones, approach the dishes differently from a conceptual standpoint: they reduce the number of components, and the garnishes/sides are basically eliminated in favor of a single, composed, center-of-the-plate taste. And the menu itself, overall (i.e., viewed as a progression), is part of the composition.

[Steve Plotnicki]

In a tasting menu, many chefs, especially French ones, approach the dishes differently from a conceptual standpoint: they reduce the number of components, and the garnishes/sides are basically eliminated in favor of a single, composed, center-of-the-plate taste. And the menu itself, overall (i.e., viewed as a progression), is part of the composition

Fat Guy - You know I am a dollars to donuts type of guy. I think that based on the amount of food they serve on the typical tasting portion, including what it has to cost, and the much smaller physical space it uses, how much can they put on a plate? It has to be a reduced scope. But I've found that the restaurants are now falling into two categories. Atelier was in the first category, and from the photos, the Fifth Floor too. They just serve smaller portions of dishes on their regular carte. Yes there might be some modification and simplification, but they are usually pretty similar in my experience. But this is not the case at a place like the French Laundry where the amount of architecture present in the small plates is probably more labor intensive then many of the highly constructed full size portions at many 3 star restaurants.